ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: valnar on February 07, 2020, 01:10:09 AM
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I've been thinking about this for some time, but I believe it's time for a paradigm shift in the way we charge our EV's in public. They are a brand new kind of vehicle, so a brand new way of thinking is required.
With ICE vehicles, it was acceptable and even preferred to have a quick-stop place to refuel. Ergo the gas station was invented. It only takes us 5 minutes to refuel, and if necessary, grab a Slim Jim and slushie.
Now with even optimistic quick-charge scenarios taking 30-40 minutes or so, standing around at a tiny corner station is undesirable. In a post-ICE world, I think the design of the corner gas station should go away. Other businesses, from stores to restaurants, should all take up the cause of becoming the mediator of EV charging. We should have something to do for that time while the vehicle charges, and it could become a secondary source of income for those establishments.
We do see this happening in many places already, but my point is more of making the gas station obsolete. It doesn't fit the mold in this new world.
What do you think? Does it make sense to simply outfit gas stations with electric charging? Or should they go away with the dodo bird once the last ICE vehicle is off the road?
-Robert
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The only reason I think charging stations should be at all gas stations is the ubiquitous(sp) nature of them. If you're out in the middle of nowhere, you're still likely to find a gas station, even a 1 or 2 pump setup. Add a level2 charger and/or a CCS charger and it greatly alleviates range anxiety on longer trips without having to meticulously plan your route.
I remember the first time I drove across country while in the Marines and navigating by a road atlas. I rarely let my car drop much below half a tank since I had no idea where the next gas station was going to be. My most recent trip cross country there were so many gas stations/mini-marts that you would need a vehicle that got less than 50 miles on a tank to have any concerns.
I do agree that ideally, chargers should be installed at most shopping establishments, whether strip malls or full blown shopping centers. Greatly increases the number of impulse purchases made while waiting for the charge. Especially restaurants and coffee shops.
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Do you go inside convince stores to buy gasoline or diesel with cash? Lottery tickets, and cigarettes are way more likely to be holding one up than slim jims.
The future may be fuel cells and liquid or gaseous fuel. Maybe liquid electrolyte. Maybe replaceable batteries.
Charging in public. A local town building (county is pretty meaningless here) has two spots real close to the door for free charging. That is what public I see, fringe benefits for some that a percentage will boast about it.
Obviously the footprint for electric charging needs to be larger especially if folks will do as you suggest charge to full as opposed to just enough to get home and do it.
How about 50 pound battery modules and make green jobs to have someone strong enough to swap them out for those not able.
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Looking around on Plugshare I noticed that quite a few of the stations closest to me (that aren't at gas stations) are in shopping centres or town centres, so there should be enough to occupy an hour or two of your time.
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I think they will entirely fold unless they rip out the underground tanks and retrofit EV infrastructure in its place. This will be expensive, and many gas station owners will not have the capital to invest. We need the ubiquity of the stations though. With charging rates what they are at currently, even if they halve, the wait at any given station will increase tenfold or more. So we will need a LOT more charging locations.
In a truly ideal world, there is one, maybe two charging standards, and we invest in the infrastructure to put a charging plug on every other street light, and put stations on the long stretched of highways in the middle of the country.
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I see a future combining supercaps, solid state lithium style batteries, and disposable aluminium-air batteries, all in one pack.
Cas :)
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With charging rates what they are at currently, even if they halve, the wait at any given station will increase tenfold or more. So we will need a LOT more charging locations.
I think this is the root of the problem right here. We are all enjoying the fact that EV's make up such a small portion of the vehicles on the road. If that came close to anywhere near 100%, even retrofitting every single gas station with chargers would still be shy the amount needed by a LARGE portion.
Even considering the locals who would charge mostly at home, anyone who traveled long distance, or state-to-state, would require more real-estate than gas stations could provide if you had to leave a car there for 1 hour (assuming fully empty to empty driving). Just think about ALL the cars and trucks driving by you on a daily basis, especially if you live in NYC or Chicago. I can't envision there ever being enough unless they start replacing parking meters with EV chargers Lol.
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The only reason why we visit petrol stations at all is because that's the only place we can get petrol.
I seem to have a plentiful supply of electricity at home though.
What is probably going to happen is existing sites will be converted to fast-charge sites for long haul trips, but the large majority of users will never use them. Looking at my own driving/riding habits - about 12k miles a year or so, but only 4 trips over 100 miles in that year - I think it should probably work out, though there will indeed probably need to be a few more of them about by the end of the decade or we'll be on shaky ground.
Cas :)
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I agree that 1) the best solution is charging at home, and 2) for trips, rest stops of one kind or another. Gas stations just don't have enough space to allow many vehicles to charge for a good portion of an hour, so retrofitting them seems not very helpful. Freeway rest stops are basically parking lots with bathrooms and picnic tables anyhow, so why not install chargers there? Use the restroom, stretch your legs and have a sandwich while your car refuels. They're also generally very remote, so there should be lots of room for a solar installation nearby. If there's a shop or two nearby, even better.
For around-town, see number 1) above. EVs are already available with 250+ miles' worth of range, so if you leave the house fully charged in the morning, I can't imagine why you'd need to recharge at the mall. Bikes don't have that kind of range yet, but they're not far from it.
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I think we are all discounting the amount of drivers who require >300+ miles between trips on a DAILY basis. I'd love to live in this 21st Century World we're trying to build by 2035, but I don't see it happening on 2020 technology.....yet.
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I don't think people are discounting them, the amount of long distance drivers is just relatively small. For the majority of drivers they won't exceed the range of an electric car in a single day, and even the range of an electric bike is enough for the average commuter (because people tend not to go as far on bikes). Thus the public stations are for either the smaller number of people who do take really long trips (especially those travelling over multiple days who may not be able to charge overnight wherever they're staying) or those who forget to charge at home or can't for some reason.
One of the great things about electric vehicles is being able to refuel at home (imagine how empty gas stations would be if everyone had gas pumped straight to their homes) and I imagine that's what most people will be doing.
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I can't envision there ever being enough unless they start replacing parking meters with EV chargers Lol.
Oh sheet...you might be on to something big there. Making EVSEs that size might be slightly difficult, but then they could do the same job as the meter does already. ICE cars or anyone not needing to charge can use the same timer function without pulling kW. Seems actually pretty doable...
I think we are all discounting the amount of drivers who require >300+ miles between trips on a DAILY basis.
I would be surprised if that slice of the pie is bigger than 10%. Here is a study (can't see the year) that says 98% of Americans travel less than 110mi/day. https://books.google.com/books?id=32Nbb26J9iEC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&dq=percent+of+drivers+who+commute+more+than+300+miles+a+day&source=bl&ots=BEMWsJORkE&sig=ACfU3U3nIMmKPzcINNRJuXOpBQ4suOuAUw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdnfzsmL7nAhUMHjQIHQ6CC9YQ6AEwCXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=percent%20of%20drivers%20who%20commute%20more%20than%20300%20miles%20a%20day&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=32Nbb26J9iEC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&dq=percent+of+drivers+who+commute+more+than+300+miles+a+day&source=bl&ots=BEMWsJORkE&sig=ACfU3U3nIMmKPzcINNRJuXOpBQ4suOuAUw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdnfzsmL7nAhUMHjQIHQ6CC9YQ6AEwCXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=percent%20of%20drivers%20who%20commute%20more%20than%20300%20miles%20a%20day&f=false)
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People drive cars based upon their longest or most extraneous use once a year.
It's dumb, but that's what people do.
The idea that we have charging stations in each set of restaurants or downtown shopping areas is exactly why all Whole Foods have them. Why Costcos have gas stations - and should have charging stations.
-Crissa
Making EVSEs that size might be slightly difficult,
Naw, it's electronic. You can also always put any transformers into a vault under the sidewalk.
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I'm also thinking about the workers who drive all day. Taxi drivers...my neighbor who delivers Coca Cola all around town....people who do home inspections on foreclosed houses....police....you name it. It makes me wonder if we'll need to live in a hybrid world where gas is still needed. I don't think it's going anywhere for aviation any time soon.
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The idea that we have charging stations in each set of restaurants or downtown shopping areas is exactly why all Whole Foods have them. Why Costcos have gas stations - and should have charging stations.
-Crissa
Maybe where you live. NONE of the Whole Foods markets around here have charging stations that I can see...
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I'm also thinking about the workers who drive all day. Taxi drivers...my neighbor who delivers Coca Cola all around town....people who do home inspections on foreclosed houses....police....you name it. It makes me wonder if we'll need to live in a hybrid world where gas is still needed. I don't think it's going anywhere for aviation any time soon.
I find it interesting that the meter maids that travel the streets of the city l where I used to work looking for parking scofflaws on their enclosed three-wheel golf carts, had (of course) used ICE power for many years. Then they switched to electric-powered versions of the vehicles. Recently, I noticed that they had returned to ICE put-puts. I don't know why, but it has got to be either lack of range or problems with reliability. ???
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After doing a lot of EV travel, I have sorely missed convenience stores (gas station services), just so I can use the bathroom, buy a snack or a coffee, or actually wipe bugs off of my windscreen.
That's really only happened a couple of times in 4 years of using high-powered EV chargers on my Zero. EV stations are often in dull locations with no amenities in walking distance.
I'm not saying that every station needs to have services, but if even 10% of them had services, it would make the experience a lot better overall.
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Convenience stores where you can use the toilet are getting to be harder and harder to find. It's company policy at 7-Eleven not to have them, even in rural locations!
When I find one that has one, I tend to remember it. That Starbucks has a company policy of an open restroom has become a major reason I stop at them at all.
-Crissa
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> I find it interesting that the meter maids that travel the streets of the city l where I used to work looking for parking scofflaws on their enclosed three-wheel golf carts, had (of course) used ICE power for many years. Then they switched to electric-powered versions of the vehicles. Recently, I noticed that they had returned to ICE put-puts. I don't know why, but it has got to be either lack of range or problems with reliability. ???
These maybe?
https://westwardindustries.com/vehicles/go-4-ev/
I would think that with their slow speed travels, relatively fixed routes, and flat roofs, these would be the ideal vehicles for solar-assisted commercial function. Battery could be sized larger than any motorcycle, if necessary, and calculated to where it would run all day. And the silence could let them creep up and leave a ticket without alerting the poorly-parked motorist who may be nearby or snoozing inside.
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My spouse was once asleep in the car on a residential street we'd parked the wrong facing direction so we could unload for an event. And the officer had to wake her up and interrogate her before giving the ticket.
-Crissa
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A warm, sheltered area with comfortable seating so I can kick back with my Kindle reader would be welcome...
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Convenience stores where you can use the toilet are getting to be harder and harder to find. It's company policy at 7-Eleven not to have them, even in rural locations!
When I find one that has one, I tend to remember it. That Starbucks has a company policy of an open restroom has become a major reason I stop at them at all.
-Crissa
I think that is more of an issue in CA. It seems to me that every store in NV has a restroom. But I have not been in a 7-11 in NV that I can remember.
The only place I can remember in Nevada that has no restroom is the Reno Social Security Office.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I'm not saying they don't exist with or some just let you use it anyhow. Just that's company policy. I'm glad people ignore it, otherwise I'd have had a potty emergency.
-Crissa
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I'm not saying they don't exist with or some just let you use it anyhow. Just that's company policy. I'm glad people ignore it, otherwise I'd have had a potty emergency.
-Crissa
I wasn't aware of this policy. Can't say I'm aware of it but a convenience store without rest rooms wouldn't be terribly convenient, would it? Guess I'll have to check out the next 7-11 I go to (we have enough of them around here).
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My recollection is that there is a law in California that requires gas stations to have free bathrooms (although you usually have to beg for the key as they typically are locked up) and also free compressed air, although you may have to ask the attendant to turn on the compressor at some stations.
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It's always about money.
Think of how many billions are in gas stations. Think of how much revenue they generate. If anyone thinks they will simply fade away without a fight or a viable alternative they should think again.
Most stations are on small lots but in very high traffic areas. There aren't many other uses for those properties. They will need to remain a transportation refueling location with an increase in human comforts, which will be easier when you don't have awful smelling gas all around you.
At this time however none of the current EV batteries or charging stations are good enough for the time clock punching crowd. When I talk to people about it they reject it almost instantly. They say even 30 minutes to charge up, hell no. If they could live with one and could charge at home they might feel different but telling them they need to spend big money (for the paycheck to paycheck guys) on a J1772 home charger, again I get a hell no.
The batteries will need to be solid state, or similar spec to really get the masses onboard. A high multiple C rate that can get a full charge in no more than 15 minutes is what I feel is needed to get people to drop gas from their lives forever.
You can't gouge them on the electricity either. It should be much cheaper than gas since it removes most of the transportation logistics of crude oil to gasoline to the station costs out of the equation. The profits will need to come from the amenities that are offered inside.
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When I talk to people about it they reject it almost instantly. They say even 30 minutes to charge up, hell no. If they could live with one and could charge at home they might feel different but telling them they need to spend big money (for the paycheck to paycheck guys) on a J1772 home charger, again I get a hell no.
AFAIK, all EVs can charge on 120 VAC. Most people in the USA drive less than 40 miles per day. If it's charging all the time when not being used that should be more than enough charge for most people even on 120 VAC even at 3 MPH of charge.
IMO, the main reason we hear all the excuses against EVs is because most people do not like changes. People fear what they know very little about.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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IMO, the main reason we hear all the excuses against EVs is because most people do not like changes. People fear what they know very little about.
-Don- Auburn, CA
I agree but that's why EVs have to "prove" they are better in every way. I think they can be. We just aren't there yet.
I cringe when I hear about all the money being spent on chargers that I believe will be obsolete in a few years.
I hope people can be patient and except the "ok" stations we have now but not dump the billions that will be needed for a true mass adoption of EVs until the sub 15 minute charging works.
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I agree but that's why EVs have to "prove" they are better in every way. I think they can be. We just aren't there yet.
We are there in every way possible and then some, except in price and with the motorcycles.
In cars, EVs have everything beat other than price.
Can you think of a car that has better specs than this (https://www.tesla.com/roadster), other than price?
And you can get a 75 mile charge in five minutes. (https://evcharging.enelx.com/news/blog/577-how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-a-tesla) Not enough time for a meal, so get your 200+ mile charge when you get hungry. Or if not on a trip, charge to the 600 miles as you sleep and then drive your average of less than 40 miles per day--without ever stopping at a gas station. Or doing tunes ups, or changing engine oil, or . . . etc., etc.
I do wonder how many jobs will be lost in an EV world. But the demand for high tech people will be more than ever.
-Don- Aubrun, CA
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I cringe when I hear about all the money being spent on chargers that I believe will be obsolete in a few years.
Which chargers do you expect to go obsolete and why?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Ah the Tesla Roadster II. :) Believe me if I could afford it that would be my final car.
I hope and mostly trust that the car will have all those specs but to be completely fair it hasn't been proven yet.
But also to be fair almost a quarter million is more than just a little expensive. Again if I were in the super car market that is the one I'd have.
But as to other EVs, as we're talking about the refueling/recharging process, most don't come close to Tesla or Porsche for fast charging.
Your logical and you do seem to travel a great deal but it's the 9 to 5 crowd who frankly likely don't like their jobs and hate their commute that resents the idea of having to wait around to go more miles when they didn't have to in their gas car.
It may only happen once or twice a month or even a year but that will sour some people off of it for good. I see so many very low mile EVs coming up for sale. Even factoring leases in, it's a very high number and when we know the best way to recoup the high up front cost is to really put miles on them I can't think of another reason for the quick resale.
As for charging stations, almost all of them. The 6kw stations will be free charging perks at some locations, but the business model doesn't work to make a profit. If they keep crashing or when the charging cable wears out I feel they will just go away. I saw them as EV buying bait in the first place. You can plug in but your not going far for your time.
The Taycan was supposed to charge at up to 450W but I see reports it's going at 250W. That's fast by today's standards for sure but people want is sub 15 minute charging to "full" because that's what they have now.
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...for most people even on 120 VAC even at 3 MPH of charge.
IMO, the main reason we hear all the excuses against EVs is because most people do not like changes. People fear what they know very little about.
This.
The problem is, people buy cars for that once-a-year trip.
-Crissa
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...for most people even on 120 VAC even at 3 MPH of charge.
IMO, the main reason we hear all the excuses against EVs is because most people do not like changes. People fear what they know very little about.
This.
The problem is, people buy cars TRUCKS for that once-a-year trip.
-Crissa
There... fixed it for you.
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There... fixed it for you.
I doubt it's different. But it is probably why they buy trucks, too.
-Crissa
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Every morning I just shake my head in wonder at all of the giant SUVs with just one person in it, and the big pickup trucks with one person and empty beds commuting back and forth. Seriously... WTF??
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People don't think of TCO and dollars per mile.
-Crissa
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The problem is, people buy cars for that once-a-year trip.
An RV is the better way for a once or twice per year trip, if an over-nigher. And I would be in the market for a decent E-RV, if they ever make one with a reasonable way to charge such on the road along with at least a 400 mile range, as with the RV I now own.
I was born too long ago for some of the things I want to see. I am sure they are coming, but I will most likely be dead by then. Seems E-RVs are not even yet in the vapor-ware stages.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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People don't think of TCO and dollars per mile.
-Crissa
That is a whole different discussion and not sure the electric advocates like some ways of analyzing it. What is expensive is tipping over or worse. The thread pertains to charging which is kind of uncertain of the cost unless at home or work or at the town hall or food/spirit establishment etc. Maybe like the bathroom and air not always the way it is supposed to be. Do we buy tesla stock with the monies saved with ice?
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The problem is, people buy cars for that once-a-year trip.
An RV is the better way for a once or twice per year trip, if an over-nigher. And I would be in the market for a decent E-RV, if they ever make one with a reasonable way to charge such on the road along with at least a 400 mile range, as with the RV I now own.
I was born too long ago for some of the things I want to see. I am sure they are coming, but I will most likely be dead by then. Seems E-RVs are not even yet in the vapor-ware stages.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Don just go to YT and type in Electric RV and there are all kinds that pop up. They aint cheap but they're out there.
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Back to the subject at hand: Since, even with DCFC, recharging is going to take longer than refueling, it would make sense that the charging stations be located where you can kill time; preferably something that'll help the property owner make some money (because in the end, it's ALL about the money).
I'm reminded of the time DECADES ago, when Nolan Bushnell sold Atari to Time Warner. Part of the deal was that he would have to stay AWAY from the video game industry for a period of years (I can't remember how long it was). Like many people looking for a job at that time, he looked to the fast food industry.
Americans LOVE hot dogs, hamburgers and pizza. Why, he wondered, were there no "Fast Food Pizza" chains? In his research, he learned that there is no way to make pizza quickly, it's going to take as long as it will (kind of like grits from "My Cousin Vinny") so he took another tact: What about if his pizza restaurants gave his customers something to do while they waited for their pizza? And thus was "Chuck E. Cheese" born.
They are a shadow of their former self, but you can still find them. But back in the day they were a gold mine and Bushnell made a fortune on it before he sold the chain and got back into electronics.
This is the kind of thinking that needs to go into charging stations, I think... FREE charging... but the opportunity to spend money while you're waiting. Shopping Malls are a natural, so are multiplex cinemas. Many Cracker Barrels now have charging stations as well which is ironic because they started out as gas stations (believe it or not).
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Don just go to YT and type in Electric RV and there are all kinds that pop up. They aint cheap but they're out there.
Yeah. I know about the short range ones, which is a start. But for an RV, a short range is not practical. I want around the same range as my ICE RV, which is around 500 miles. And ways to recharge on the road. Not much room for RVs at many of the charging stations.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Back to the subject at hand: Since, even with DCFC, recharging is going to take longer than refueling, it would make sense that the charging stations be located where you can kill time; preferably something that'll help the property owner make some money (because in the end, it's ALL about the money).
So far, every DC fast charger I have seen fits your criteria, just some locations are better than others, depending mainly on what you wanna do.
It's a requirement for Tesla Superchargers to be at a place that has at least a restaurant and rest room within a short walking distance. But I find that to be the case with all DC chargers anyway. At least at the places I have been to.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Wish I could say the same about the Chargepoint Level2 AC chargers around here. A lot of them are at really odd locations (for example, the easternmost station I could find is on Shelter Island at a police station). You do need more time for that kind of charge than you do for DCFC, so it would make sense. I'm planning an "Around Long Island" loop this Spring or Summer; roughly a 200 mile loop. Be nice to have some options to kill an hour or so recharging...
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Wish I could say the same about the Chargepoint Level2 AC chargers around here. A lot of them are at really odd locations (for example, the easternmost station I could find is on Shelter Island at a police station). You do need more time for that kind of charge than you do for DCFC, so it would make sense. I'm planning an "Around Long Island" loop this Spring or Summer; roughly a 200 mile loop. Be nice to have some options to kill an hour or so recharging...
Yeah, not all J-1772 stations are at good locations, not even in this area. But most of them are at casinos here in Reno which always have a restaurant or two (or more).
But J-1772 stations are also at places such as the Sparks, NV City Hall, libraries and some train stations that are kinda out of the way.
But the only DC fast chargers that I can think of without at least a restaurant close by are those at some of the Harley shops. But the Harley shops at least have a restroom--and a place to spend some money, such as 30K$ on a new Livewire. ;)
-Don- Reno, NV
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> But the Harley shops at least have a restroom--and a place to spend some money, such as 30K$ on a new Livewire. ;)
More likely to get offended that your non HD is there tempting real HD customers...
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> But the Harley shops at least have a restroom--and a place to spend some money, such as 30K$ on a new Livewire. ;)
More likely to get offended that your non HD is there tempting real HD customers...
They don't seem to mind at all.
They really cannot say too much because I am in their system as a Harley owner and have done a lot of business in most of these shops. So if they do get offended, it's more their problem than mine.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I bet they'd mind if you weren't
: - )
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Here's an article from Business about VW's new 150kw chargers in Germany.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-launch-network-ultra-fast-charging-points-133343648.html
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Here's an article from Business about VW's new 150kw chargers in Germany.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-launch-network-ultra-fast-charging-points-133343648.html
"About to". VW Group is all about the promises, the press releases. Judge automakers by what they *do*.
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> I cringe when I hear about all the money being spent on chargers that I believe will be obsolete in a few years.
> I hope people can be patient and except the "ok" stations we have now but not dump the billions that will be needed for a true mass adoption of EVs until the sub 15 minute charging works.
You are speaking of onboard charger bricks? Heavy things you have to carry with you? Since with Fast DC charging, the charger is in the station, not the vehicle...
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I may be the exception here but I prefer fast chargers at Sheetz and WAWA fueling stations instead of shopping malls. Most of them are open 24/7. Malls aren't. Tough to find a restroom at a mall when they are closed, or to get something to drink.
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Ultrarnr I've seen some Sheetz stations going through Carolina but never heard of WAWA, had to look them up.
Togo no I was talking about charging stations not onboard chargers. If you look to the future and you have sub 15 minute chargers that people flock to and now an old location X has a 20kw charger that is out of service why would the owner keep the old style station going.
I was just suggesting we wait for really great charging stations to set a standard for the infrastructure before companies and the government rush to set a standard that doesn't give the "masses" what they want or need for electric adoption.
Just like guys on here loved the first charge tank at like 3kw but the newer one at 6kw made the 3kw one almost worthless by comparison now everyone wants CCS and J charging seems obsolete to most. Of course we have painted ourselves into a corner by only having AC access at home (for now) so onboard AC chargers are still needed for the majority of EV fill ups.
In other words I'm just trying to limit the growing pains of full adoption by not wasting too much money on a sub standard charging process.
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Having J charging readily available and distributed means that cheaper, smaller battery vehicles (like our bikes) and cheaper, smaller chargers (like AC chargers).
More charging means more versatility. Do we need expensive CCS style chargers to support these cheaper vehicles? Maybe, if get enough, it will make EVs cheaper by offloading some of the cost.
But right now, adding J-plugs is fairly cheap. They draw like a standard house or industrial/commercial device. They're compatible with different types of activities like working or dining than the CCS's compatibility with a restroom or convenience store visit.
And if we have the wiring to support J-plugs, that's easily upgraded in the future to whatever.
If we don't, we're still in the laying wires stage, the cheap EVs we can build are less useful. And hence, we get fewer of them.
-Crissa
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More likely to get offended that your non HD is there tempting real HD customers...
It may be because I used to own both a Harley and a Buell but my local H-D dealer was okay with me using their charger on my Energica. A couple of the sales folks took time away from their desks to come outside and check out my bike while I was charging (I went inside and asked if it was okay for me to use their charger). I didn't get any sense of them being irked because my non-Livewire was using their charger.
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I can tell you why, if I was a business, I would be loathe to buy a current ( sorry) charging station.
EV's are ridiculously new as a "mass" transport option. There is NO AGREED standard that will stand any test of time.
Volatges and current ratings will almost certainly migrate around the place as motors, batteries etc evolve. I VERY much doubt that lithium ion or even Li FePO4 batteries will remain as the basis for vehicle batteries . Their charging curves and voltages ( multiples of 3.2 or 3.7V) will pretty likely become obsolete as higher energy density units evolve. Having dozens/hundreds of tiny cells is an inelegant solution , and is, at best, an interim measure.
Add to that the charging interface . Everybody wants their brand of connector.
That said , a standardized high current multi voltage/charge curve outlet would allow larger establishments to bear the setup cost and amotrise the cost before a new standard becomes necessary. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for private enterprises to agree with one another.
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The thing is, the vast majority of the cost of a charger is the wiring to the box.
That's not going to change.
-Crissa
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I can tell you why, if I was a business, I would be loathe to buy a current ( sorry) charging station.
EV's are ridiculously new as a "mass" transport option. There is NO AGREED standard that will stand any test of time.
Volatges and current ratings will almost certainly migrate around the place as motors, batteries etc evolve. I VERY much doubt that lithium ion or even Li FePO4 batteries will remain as the basis for vehicle batteries . Their charging curves and voltages ( multiples of 3.2 or 3.7V) will pretty likely become obsolete as higher energy density units evolve. Having dozens/hundreds of tiny cells is an inelegant solution , and is, at best, an interim measure.
Add to that the charging interface . Everybody wants their brand of connector.
That said , a standardized high current multi voltage/charge curve outlet would allow larger establishments to bear the setup cost and amotrise the cost before a new standard becomes necessary. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for private enterprises to agree with one another.
Gregj, yes to all of this. Where have you been I've felt all alone. :)
I love my Zeros and their batteries make highway electric motorcycle riding possible but they aren't good enough for the masses compared to gas bikes. Frankly solid state batteries (or similar) will have to be here and real and in their full glory to make the full switch. You have to charge fully in under 15 minutes and Li ion just can't.
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Oh, you could charge it that fast. It would just be really expensive for a bike.
Motorcycles just don't have mass appeal given other options. And of the vast majority of world bike users, only a tiny fragment even go on long trips.
It's really the price point that's the problem.
-Crissa
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The thing is, the vast majority of the cost of a charger is the wiring to the box.
That's not going to change.
-Crissa
The charger will include a big battery for when the sun shines and the wind blows.
The choice of real estate, what site work is involved and what other electric stuff can be bundled in the contract. If I interpret your statement as intended.
Around here the wires are overhead.
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Chrissa,
I agree that the price point is currently the main problem. The biggest change to that , I think, will be a more mass production and uptake ( chicken and egg problem currently I think).
In Australia, commuting to work along a highway or motorway 40 or 50km, one way, in not uncommon in both the cities and rural areas. My partner's daughter commutes 5 days a week 120km round trip to work between western Brisbane and the Gold coast ( she a midwife). Now she doesn't take a motorcycle ( she has to take her daughter toi day care), but plenty do. It s not uncommon a distance for a work trip in the bigger cities. I suspect in her case she would actually be a canidate for a super bike rather than a super commuter though. She has been riding since she was a teenager and learned on a FZR250RR...
But Australia is not a big market I guess.
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The charger will include a big battery for when the sun shines and the wind blows.
What? No, the vast majority of charge points are just plugged into the grid.
The choice of real estate, what site work is involved and what other electric stuff can be bundled in the contract. If I interpret your statement as intended.
Around here the wires are overhead.
...The real estate is already there, in the form of 'parking places' which outnumber the square footage and in many case the per unit of housing and sometimes all buildings.
The big cost is getting the capacity from the utility (which isn't cheap to get a drop from wires, overhead or not) and then installing the wiring to plug the charger into. The charger itself is like a low-end electric stove in both cost and power consumption. And that won't really change, because our electrical grid is not going to change how they deliver power any time soon.
DC fast charging requires a completely different system of transformers and capacitance to get the specific voltage and impulse required - but there will always be lower voltage devices because they will always be cheaper to build. So DC charging infrastructure shouldn't negate building out support for 6kw charging. Even if we get a true DC standard, there will always be cheaper, shorter range vehicles that need it from scoots to motorcycles.
commutes 5 days a week 120km round trip to work
That puts her in the top quarter of commutes in Australia. abs.gov.au (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/2071.0.55.001~2016~Main%20Features~Commuting%20Distance%20for%20Australia~1)
...which a $10k USD S (bottom of the line) would still do happily with an outlet at each end. We just need to get the outlets/chargers out where they can be used.
-Crissa
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> ... There is NO AGREED standard that will stand any test of time. ...
I don't know that that's true. I think CCS, where the vehicle says max voltage and max amps and essentially opens its battery to the station, has an awful lot of headroom, and I don't see it going away soon. Right now it's limited to about 1000 volts, with most vehicles being about 1/3 of that, and of course connector pin size limits amps, but volts could go higher. Right now, 1000 appears to be the limit due to safety regulations (apparently voltages higher than that require a lot more safety measures like how electric company substations are behind chainlink fences, and much more specially trained personnel required, not just professional electricians)
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CCS looks to be winning here - sensible design, forward thinking.
Cas :)
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CCS looks to be winning here - sensible design, forward thinking.
Cas :)
Yep. CCS sure wins around here. And that is what they are putting in at the Wal*Marts. What surprises me is that most Wal*marts have no way to charge a Tesla. Not even for a slow J-1772 charge or Tesla Destination charger. Nothing at all that is compatible with Tesla.
Unless one can find one of these somewhere (https://shop.tesla.com/product/chademo-adapter), as Wal*Marts do have the CHAdeMO.
One Wal*Mart I have seen has a J-1772 charge station, the Wal*Mart in Elk Grove, CA. But Plugshare says it is not working! All the other Wal*Marts I have seen do not even have that. But since the one I saw isn't even working, it doesn't even count. I am not sure if it is newly and slowly going in or being removed. I am not sure if it ever worked or ever will.
I am surprised there are not more J1772 stations as they can charge any car or motorcycle EV, AFAIK. I have used J1772 on all four of my EVs.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The charger will include a big battery for when the sun shines and the wind blows.
What? No, the vast majority of charge points are just plugged into the grid.
The choice of real estate, what site work is involved and what other electric stuff can be bundled in the contract. If I interpret your statement as intended.
Around here the wires are overhead.
...The real estate is already there, in the form of 'parking places' which outnumber the square footage and in many case the per unit of housing and sometimes all buildings.
The big cost is getting the capacity from the utility (which isn't cheap to get a drop from wires, overhead or not) and then installing the wiring to plug the charger into. The charger itself is like a low-end electric stove in both cost and power consumption. And that won't really change, because our electrical grid is not going to change how they deliver power any time soon.
DC fast charging requires a completely different system of transformers and capacitance to get the specific voltage and impulse required - but there will always be lower voltage devices because they will always be cheaper to build. So DC charging infrastructure shouldn't negate building out support for 6kw charging. Even if we get a true DC standard, there will always be cheaper, shorter range vehicles that need it from scoots to motorcycles.
-Crissa
I will try again
The title here is rethinking the charge. You stated wiring to the box more than charger. You stated this will not change or close to that.
Pertaining to this will not change was the part about chargers having batteries. I see in videos on line what appear to be convience stores in England Or great britian with chargers for vehicles in the parking lot and large transformer type things nearby that are batteries that get charged of the grid and feed the vehicles. What burned (first) in the electric road racing incident where a bunch of race bikes were lost was the battery to charge the bikes off of, at leas that is what I understand.
Pertaining the cost of wiring exceeding cost of the charger. I kind of thought you would be referencing the cost of Harley Davidson dealerships getting their two or ccs devices up and running. I was more looking it in terms of actually buying a piece of property and setting up charging stations to turn a profit. In order to do this a business plan could be to buy the energy through a timed meter in the off peak. If nuclear is really the future it will be the opposite of peaker type generation. I only typed sun shine and wind blow.
Now what is a charger? The FX accessory charger costs $600 and is not close to maxing out a 15 amp 120volt circuit. Alta had two choices of charger probably somewhere around half the capacity of an electric clothes dryer socket. Perhaps $1000. Digi now was approx $2000. Charge tank is about $2000 that is a charger and for SRF need premium or else more $. All these things are more than the cost of socket for such assuming put in contract for new house. Even if upgrading from 60 amp service to 200 amp or 200 amp to 400 amp should be under the $2000 if you call the outfit that advertises on cable tv or the neighbor's sister's husbband who recomends some entity which in my case ended up being an outfit with at least two A's at the front of their business name.
I guess you had a type two set up in mind not what I have discussed. I just went by the town hall for Stafford Springs, or maybe Stafford CT which is the only charger I go by in my travels. Here are a few pictures, it would appear involves a solar roof to some degree. The two chargers near the building with conduit coming out of the building I could not figure out how to pull out the cord, the other two, one in use and the other that apparently does not retract. I imagine this could be a problem if you find a location on the smart phone but can't pull out the cord. The pavement has been cut to the roof assembly from the building. I wonder if it costs more to wire or the actual things I assume you consider a charger or the wiring into the building costs more. It might all be covered in some of the six or so little fees on the electric bill after supply and transmission. The towns do lately like to hire 3 part time retired guys instead of one full time guy. I was just talking to a member of the bike club while not an electrician same general idea part time on call.
There is a portable no grid at all system that pops up as I wander the internet, it has two 6kw stations and a bunch of solar panels. I would imagine it pops up for lots of folks or perhaps is just advertising and pops up is kind of misleading.
Fran
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I don't understand why CCS chargers are being installed without companion level 2 charging. Anything smaller than an Energica is never going to have CCS charging at the current standard - it's too high voltage.
So I think any weakness to the idea that CCS is 'the next thing' is that it specifically excludes smaller, cheaper vehicles. When in fact, DC charging would be the most advantageous to smaller vehicles as it means less charging equipment to have on board!
And Fran K... I don't know what you're going on about. Stand-alone charging systems have two parts - and the part that is solar/wind/batteries is completely unrelated to the charger plugged into them. The boxes that are near a Level 2 charger are the same box that you'd need for a house. The boxes that are near a CCS charger are the same box you'd have for a big commercial building. And that's the expensive part. The wires and the supply.
If chargers for cars change - a new CCS for smaller units or new software or whatever. It'll just plug into the grid like any other appliance does. It's just we don't have plugs out in parking lots yet. And we should.
Even a Tesla or a Taycan can use a normal outlet. It helps them run their battery cooling systems and maintain their batteries and pre-condition for when the driver returns instead of losing miles. If we had outlets available, we wouldn't be having this range-anxiety argument.
-Crissa
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That's what I'm talking about with wasting money.
Do the math and figure out how many miles you get in a car, bikes are too rare in the US I love them but it's the truth, from charging at a 6kw J station. Now figure how long will someone have to stay there to get say 60 miles worth of power? Now figure how much a private station owner will have to bill you to make a profit.
It doesn't work as a business. It's why there are no more pay phones. There is a better option and it isn't worth keeping the bad option running.
On the other hand if you could get 250 miles in 15 minutes at a converted gas station like you can now, you can bill an owner $20 and they leave and the next guy comes in. That's $80 an hour and $1280 in a 16 hour day from each spot. Now you have a business. Now the masses keep the same old weekly routine and don't go into shock.
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Why does it matter how long they sit there for 60 miles of power?
The median commute is 16 miles. The median drive is less.
And saying motorcycles don't matter is saying that e-bikes and motorcycles and scoots just will never, ever catch on and that they shouldn't.
-Crissa
PS, also my point stands with that even a Tesla or Taycan can use those outlets. It's not just miles they're gaining: It's how many they're not losing. They're sitting around, active systems as well as passively losing charge. In extreme weather, this is important.
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Wait are you wanting 110V outlets all around or J plugs?
Who is going to pay for all this easy access and power?
Trust me it's got to make dollars to make sense. See what I did there? :)
No one has ever asked me how far I commute so who are "they" getting these numbers from? All city dwellers I'd guess so it's easier to fill up the survey sheet that way.
I'm about 60 miles a day so 300 miles a week if I don't go anywhere else during the work week. I work with people who go over 110 miles total everyday. People in the south still value trees and large tracts of land.
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Surveys are usually conducted through phone or online now. The Census asks everyone.
And I don't know who's going to pay. Right now, it's considered an added benefit to a store or dining area, or a commuting space.
You might as well ask 'who's going to pay for roads' or 'who's going to pay for clean air.'
-Crissa
PS I don't care if it's 110 or 220, honestly, though the latter makes more sense. Like I said, even if J-plugs are phased out, if the wiring to the parking exists, we can put whatever kind of chargers are to be used. And the more, the better. Because smaller, shorter range vehicles can use them.
There's an estimated five million parking meters in the US. How awesome would it be if we had five million J-plugs or 220v outlets?
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Ok Crissa, I should remember I can't add the tongue in cheek tone of my voice to what I type. I did use the smiley face to try to set the tone but I guess it didn't work.
This will be my last post on this since to me it's just a fun little guess the future exercise.
My thoughts (guesses) are as follows.
1. Evs will need a solid state or similar type batteries. This should allow for much faster charging and no longer needing to taper charging near the end of the charge cycle because there would no longer be the risk of over voltage gassing and fire.
2. The electricity supply to your house will cost much much more than it does now. I hear about areas that charge different amounts based on the time of day. I feel that will go away and it will be a stepped rate method. You'll pay a certain rate for your first, say 75 kWh
and then a higher rate for your next 75 kWh and so on.
3. The power company WILL make lots of money off people home charging. They may also mandate vehicle to grid use if you want to charge at home so they get the use of your batteries.
4. The current gas stations will convert over to charging stations. They will have the money to pay for the big power units needed for very fast charging and since numbers 2 and 3 will be in place that will be the cheaper way to keep your over all electric consumption down
at your house. Of course number 1 is needed for this because again for the business to work you have to get people in, get their money, and get them out and get the next guy in. The faster the better.
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2. The electricity supply to your house will cost much much more than it does now. I hear about areas that charge different amounts based on the time of day. I feel that will go away and it will be a stepped rate method. You'll pay a certain rate for your first, say 75 kWh
and then a higher rate for your next 75 kWh and so on.
3. They may also mandate vehicle to grid use if you want to charge at home so they get the use of your batteries.
I really can't see those happening. They'll already be making more money because people will be consuming more electricity, why would they be justified in making even more on top of that just because it's being used to charge vehicles? They also have no way of knowing what the power is being used for, so not only would it apply to everyone whether they're charging a vehicle or not they also can't demand usage of your battery (if the vehicle is even capable of it).
On a side note, imagine how awesome it would be if all Chademo chargers actually complied with regulations and went down to 50v. I only recently discovered that Zero offered a Chademo adapter like 7 years ago, I looked at all the chargers specs on the site and pretty much every one was capable of 50 to 500v, wondered why Zero gave up on the idea and it turns out a bunch of the chargers near their HQ didn't actually go low enough. Apparently more chargers do now but no idea if it's enough to make it worth while trying again, and I couldn't find any info on a way to check what the lower voltage limit is on particular chargers.
This is probably a dumb question but why can't the voltage just be stepped down, or rather why wouldn't it work in this case?
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Ok one more I guess then it's bed time.
So >They'll already be making more money because people will be consuming more electricity, why would they be justified in making even more on top of that just because it's being used to charge vehicles? They also have no way of knowing what the power is being used for, so not only would it apply to everyone whether they're charging a vehicle or not they also can't demand usage of your battery (if the vehicle is even capable of it).
They will bill you more because of supply and demand. The EVs will just greatly increase the demand. Most power companies only make about as much power as people use now. If you add thousands of EVs to a local grid that's already near it's limits they will have to invest in more power generation and staff to run it.
As for EV to grid again this is maybe 10-15 years in the future that I'm thinking of. No type of mandate would be off limits. After a few blackouts the government forces all charging stations to be two way, for your own good.
Think that's crazy? Most people got power walls to go with their solar roof panels. But you couldn't use it to power your house if the power went out because of the working line men's safety. It was a real danger but people weren't happy they couldn't use them. That was half the point of it, to be backup power. I think they can add a switch to allow it now but the control is still theirs.
Do you want to sell some power? Ok but you can only sell it to the power company and they pay a small fraction of what they will bill someone else for it. They will have the control and thus the power.
And it all ends up like this: LOL Lets hope I'm wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ-UZ4DvYBg
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The environment can't wait for the perfect battery tech. We're at the balance point now, and need to jump now. The more technologies the better. But smaller, cheaper will always be lower voltage so we'll always need those tap that currently J-plugs run on.
We will have to think about pricing in a new way, EVs or no. The transmission companies no longer will be able to make the money off of per kilowatt except for things like charging EVs which are being charged not overnight when demand is low.
Regulating net pricing is certainly something we'll have to do. We'll probably have to invent (and limit) a carrier charge so utilities don't charge rural customers into the ground for being on long runs or go out of business in neighborhoods that are all semi-supplied with their solar roofs.
And some electricity is going to be more expensive. And that's okay. We can't push the cost off on people's health like coal has been doing, or damage the atmosphere like we've been doing with unbalanced CO2 emissions.
Per-capita electricity use hasn't risen in California - land of Silicon Valley, mind you - in nearly forty years.
-Crissa
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Another problem is that converting from high to low voltage involves considerable wastage (in the form of heat.. rather a lot of heat) but really that's maybe not a problem for devices outputting DC. Then there is the small issue that DC is really fucking dangerous and especially so at high voltage. I wouldn't want to go near anything outputting more than 400VDC, doubly so if it was raining.
As for battery tech... expect charging times to be slashed by over 50% within the next 10 years, and capacity to approximately increase by 50% for the same volume and/or weight. But don't get hung up on any specific tech like graphene or solid state - whatever works best will win out. First bike manufacturer to get 30KWh in a bike I can lift off its side gets my money.
Cas :)
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I keep forgetting the voltage issue Aus vs US.
Our std voltage is 240 , std socket current of 10amp and very common single phase 240v/15 amp. Even a std socket is comfortably capable of 2.4Kw ( and the big pin of 3.6kW).
The most sensible charger would use std 240V/15amp AC cable and a std plug/socket and convert onboard the vehicle. On a motorcycle that may be a bit heavy, but possible.
Perhaps commercial stations would use 3phase 415V/20amp (8.3kW). Rather than a full recharge give a top up. That would extend the vehicle range.
The problem with using a std plug/ socket on a vehicle is the exposed live pins on the male side. So more protective design is probably necessary.
The trouble with lower voltage vehicles is, the lower the voltage the higher the current. The higher the current, the bigger and heavier everything has to be. DC will always have a possibility of destructive arching ( ac arching is less erosive).
Lower voltage does not necessarily equal smaller and cheaper. A carbon/zinc or lead acid battery is much bigger and heavier than the Li-ion or LiFePO4 battery. The cell Voltage is about 3times as high for both and capacity vastly higher. Even std 12v batteries for automotive , the LiFePO4 batteries are only about twice the price for a proper equivalent which is a fraction of the weight.
These techs are not the final tech we will be seeing. I strongly suspect for battery config new tech that will have higher cell voltages. The problem with that approach is there is a limited electrochemical potential in the universe. We are getting to the limits now. The answer is likely to be something more generative. Possibly fuel cell, but more likely something we haven't though of yet and the seeds are sitting in someones pure physical chemistry research
paper somewhere...
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On a motorcycle that's under five pounds. That's what Zero does; they have an onboard swithing power supply (accepts 110-125 and 220-250) just like any major electronics device now, and then runs at 1400 watts.
LFPO batteries are 2x larger than Li-Ma-Ni. (Currently. There's some experimental that have been announced in the last couple months that are bringing it in line with the batteries we currently use in our bikes. That would be a huge gain.)
Cell voltage is still pretty low - but the more cells you have is the faster you can charge or discharge, and you can build them up for higher voltages. The Tesla has tiny cells which is why it's so efficient while the Taycan has its natural bus at 800v. Neither are acceptable (currently) for motorcycles because of cost and safety.
It doesn't matter what the final tech is: We still need to get outlets out where our vehicles can use them. That's the hard part. (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ev-charging-infrastructure-has-a-soft-costs-problem)
-Crissa
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The Zero FX charger is rated at 650 watts. See their website. Appears the same for the accessory one as well.
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The Zero FX charger is rated at 650 watts. See their website. Appears the same for the accessory one as well.
The X platform charger is smaller than the S platform charger. But it's also a smaller bike with a shorter range designed for slower sustained speeds. The accessory charger is for if you want to increase the charging.
See their website, I guess.
-Crissa
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Well Korea may have just solved my requirement #1
Sorry dead link.
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Well Korea may have just solved my requirement #1
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/ev-battery-breakthrough-twice-range-220000749.html
Yahoo didn't like that URL, alas.
-Crissa
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Well it sure did get pulled quick "they" must not want us to know about it. :)
Luckily Rajamanickam Antonimuthu posted a video about it so the truth can get out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlA7CcDOZa8
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Okay.
Let's not derail the thread with novel batteries, though. They can have their own thread.
-Crissa
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Look all kidding aside since who knows if that idea will ever be anything. The battery technology is going to improve so rapidly I'm saying it's foolish to try to make a charging standard now that will be completely obsolete in a few more years. Or worse hold back battery improvements because they don't work with thousands of charging stations that people have invested so much money in.
First get great dense batteries and that can charge super fast, then match the charging to them. The ones we have now just aren't good enough.
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Don't all batteries charge in pretty much the same way, with just the voltage and current used varying? I would think current charging stations would have the ability, or be able to with minimal modification (perhaps just software), to charge a new type of battery chemistry. Of course if the new battery is able to charge beyond the limits of current chargers then that's not great, but it wouldn't make the chargers obsolete.
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No, their input is pretty much the same. The input voltage varies by the array size and tha amperage is more impulse level.
It's not foolish to make a charging standard now, because without charging standards there will never be demand for more powerful batteries. Similarly, without points to install chargers, there will never be widespread adoption of EVs.
And the outlet that we plug chargers into hasn't changed in fifty or so years. Waiting is just denying the technology we have, a foothold.
The flip-phones of yore did not stop the adoption of the touch-screens we have today. Nicads didn't stop the adoption of NIMHs, which didn't stop the adoption of Li-ion technology. A nicad charger works pretty much the same as a trickle charger for a li-ion charger and both plug into the same wall outlet.
The same will apply to cars. Waiting does us no favors.
-Crissa
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Please note that at the outset I did not say that establishing charging stations now was a silly idea. What I said was the reason "I" wouldn't do it.
Note battery charging is not the same for even the same chemistry batteries that have different physical construction , if you want optimium battery life and charge. Some for reason fo thermal consideration some for physical chem reasons, etc. ( Think the charge profiles for wet cell vs gel cell charge profiles).
LiFePO4 batteries have a VERY finiky charge profile as I found with my Shorai batteries for my motorcycle, where the charger THEY supply actually kills the batteries and I didn't get any life out of them until I change to a new aftermarket specific LiFePO4 charger.
Of course this is solved by having the charger itself onboard and standardize the outside to vehicle interface. That is directly at odds with how all modern business works. They want an interface that they control and users/suppliers have to buy from them. The ONLY way to get around that is for government to mandate the interface. Good luck with that in the US...
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Battery charging is not vastly different for the outlet at the wall. And since EVs are banks of batteries, the difference is even less for the charger. You have an energy source and you need to push it into the pack.
If you think not doing it now isn't worth it - it will never be worth it. There will always be something on the horizon different and better. And if we don't run the wires now, EVs will never catch on. That's why all new housing in California has to have EV infrastructure.
-Crissa
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How does that profile vary though? Isn't it all just varying the current and voltage, to different levels at different rates? It seems that stuff like that could be altered in software or with minor hardware modifications. All those DC chargers already out there can vary their voltage and current, they need to be able to, and it's the vehicle that tells it what to do because they already use different types of batteries.
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Pretty much, TheRan.
Although only a few charge at 800v (like the Taycan does) and new Teslas run at 400v. They still connect to the mains at 480v or so, so that won't change. Chargers will wear out - they have electronics which are heating and cooling, cables which are being flexed, etc. Waiting until the next generation to install more is silly.
Especially since 800v charging is just not something motorcycles or other smaller vehicles will be doing. There's a practical limitation to smaller, cheaper vehicles; and holding off only makes them more expensive and less useful. Especially as they age. Used Leaf prices have already crashed and Bolt priced dipped very low at the end of last year. If we don't have enough small charge points to take up the slack, these cars will be seen as a failure.
And worse, if they're seen as a failure, then there won't be any investment to charge electric bikes, motorcycles, or other smaller EVs. If the only EVs to succeed are things like the Tesla and the Taycan, that means small-scale inexpensive EVs won't have a place to charge. And they won't be bought or invested in.
-Crissa
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> ... Especially since 800v charging is just not something motorcycles or other smaller vehicles will be doing. ...
Explain that, please? Higher voltages mean thinner cables for the same amps, more kW with thinner wiring, I don't see why smaller vehicles need to be low voltage. I mean, as the fleets grow and there are better safety stats as to the protection of the pack and the fears of electrocution diminish, I think it's quite possible we are looking and more S and less P in the battery packs.
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I don't see why smaller vehicles need to be low voltage. I mean, as the fleets grow and there are better safety stats as to the protection of the pack and the fears of electrocution diminish, I think it's quite possible we are looking and more S and less P in the battery packs.
I'd have to agree. Once you get past 200 volts or so, the safety argument is pretty much moot (falling off a 50-story building is pretty much the same as falling off a 5-story building), and I expect to see electric motorcycles running higher voltages pretty soon. Some of them already are, and the ones that aren't are already starting to pay a price (incompatibility with DC fast charging being the primary penalty).
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Higher voltage means needing thicker insulation, more grounding, more robust structure, more education for maintenance, more specialized tools to repair, and much higher expense on the battery cells.
A Zero would need almost 8x the number of cells it does today just to reach that voltage. That's a huge expense that won't go away with any of the new formulations on the horizon. It's less so for a car, which already has lots of cells and are just moving them around for a lower amperage, but it's massively inconvenient for a motorcycle or other small vehicle.
The thinner cables just don't balance it out, because wattage would still require the motor to have a certain weight. And the vast majority of cables in a bike are 5v and 12v controls anyhow.
-Crissa
I'm not saying we won't see them. A 300v is reasonable to aim for - that sort of cables are pretty easily found as are the size of the inverters. But the battery is still going to be much more expensive, as is the maintenance, which will eat into the possible range at a price point. Which means cheap and easy vehicles will always want to use lesser.
And even if they use 800v, you're still going to want low kilowatt chargers for these smaller vehicles for expense or because they don't go far anyhow. If we want e-bikes and motorcycles to catch on - not to mention Leafs and Bolts and eNiros on the used market - we need to have more than a charging network built for Taycans and Teslas.
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> Higher voltages mean thinner cables for the same amps, more kW with thinner wiring,
First part is false. 2nd part is true.
On a steady load, if voltage goes up, so will the current, giving you even more wattage. Means wire needs to be thicker for the extra current.
You can get more wattage with enough more voltage even if the current is reduced, so that is one way to make the wires thinner to get more power (wattage). IOW, design a motor at a much higher voltage and there will be less current draw for the same power.
IOW, the higher the voltage, the better but not for the reason you explained above.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Higher voltage means needing thicker insulation, more grounding, more robust structure, more education for maintenance, more specialized tools to repair, and much higher expense on the battery cells.
"...thicker insulation..." True, but copper's a lot heavier than insulation. The weight savings in thinner wire more than makes up for higher levels of insulation required.
"...more grounding..." Uh, what? Proper grounding is proper grounding. A safety ground cable has to be adequate to carry full fault currents. Again, a lower-current, higher-voltage system needs less copper.
"...more robust structure..." Again, what? You can't have stuff shorting out no matter what the operating voltage.
"...more education for maintenance..." See above. "Stay clear of the high voltage" is the same at 200 volts as it is at 1000.
"...more specialized tools..." In all cases, special care needs to be taken to disco the high voltage. Once that's done, it's business as usual. And again, 200 volts or 1000 volts, you need to be very careful around it.
"...much higher expense on the battery cells." This one's just plain wrong. The 28S 4P battery cells (or whatever it is) in my SR could just as easily be arranged as 56S 2P, or 112S 1P, giving twice or four times the battery voltage, with no penalty for weight or volume in any case, except (again) less copper required for the higher-voltage systems.Those battery packs would be able to supply 1/2 or 1/4 of the current, but power delivered would be the same, as would capacity. It's a total wash.
The real technical differences are safety (I'm minimizing it, but of course higher voltages ARE at least somewhat more dangerous) and the heavier, higher gauge wiring required by lower-voltage systems. Of somewhat lesser importance is the ability to find drive devices (IGBTs, MOSFETs, whatever the engineer chooses to use) capable of operating at the design voltage and current levels, and a very real-world consideration is compatibility with current and future charging equipment.
To me, all of this adds up to basically "we need to do what the cars do", which at the moment means 300~400 VDC or so, maybe higher in the future. That compatibility issue I mentioned last may seem insignificant, but I suspect long-term, it's the most important consideration of all.
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Doug, clearly you've never tried to build something using high voltage in a moving thing. Every one of those things is more difficult every time you raise the voltage.
Insulation is a massive problem with higher voltages. You don't just need more, you need different. And it tends to be less flexible. And not light.
The distance of the wires from the battery to the motor are hardly going to be more than pennies of copper. And that length of cable needs to be able to take the spikes from regen and acceleration anyhow. That doesn't balance out the battery pack, which also has to be many times more complex.
The price of a battery is mostly controlled by two things: Total weight of the parts, and the number of cells. Each cell has to be made in a processing step, and that's the majority of the time invested. And no, you can't just move 56 cells around to make whatever voltage you want. Even if you stack all the cells in a Zero, you're still only going to get 200v. You'd need more than twice as many cells to get to Tesla's level, let alone Porsche's.
And as Don explained, because the wattage doesn't change, you don't gain anything in the motor size.
And I didn't say we won't see big bikes with high voltage motors. Just that it's not relevant to cheap and small. If Porsche's standard takes off, what bikes would be made to it? Nothing I could afford, and I'm pretty well off. Let alone smaller e-bikes and devices.
None of this changes how electricity gets to homes and parking places, either. As I pointed out before: The majority of the cost in providing power to vehicles is wiring up parking.
-Crissa
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Higher voltage means needing thicker insulation, more grounding,
AFAIK, EVs cannot use a battery ground by law. The reason is safety.
In a serious accident they could have to pry a person out of a car using metal tools. Say it's a 400 volt EV with the negative side grounded. They accidentally cut into the positive of the battery cable in the very smashed up car. Now if they touch the frame what happens? They get fried. Say it shorts to the frame, what happens? I would not want to be close to that! High voltage at a very high current, well that will melt things fast, could even cause the batteries to explode.
Now if the HV is not using any grounds, what happens when they touch that same positive to the frame of the car? Absolutely nothing at all. No completed circuit. Much safer to not use a ground in an EV. It's much safer to use either a floating ground or separate wires for the negative side.
BTW, ever check the headlight voltage on your Zero? It's that, zero volts to ground or the frame with the lamp nice and bright. It also doesn't use a ground. It has its own negative wire. I have no idea why they don't use a ground for even the low voltage in motorcycles, but it probably has something to do with legal stuff, IOW, no grounds and no exceptions, not even on a motorcycle, not even when the voltage is low.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Higher voltage means needing thicker insulation, more grounding,
AFAIK, EVs cannot use a battery ground by law. The reason is safety.
Yes, it's not so simple when you have to run multiple isolated grounds. But it's something you have to do when your power source is capable of burning through things in that instant of ground before the fuse pops.
-Crissa
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> > Higher voltages mean thinner cables for the same amps, more kW with thinner wiring
> First part is false. 2nd part is true.
Yeah I meant thinner cables per kW. Conductor thickness, anyway, since it's sized by current/amps (lookup mm2 or gauge in a table). Insulation will be thicker, of course.
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Is it only me that's terrified of high voltage DC? And even more terrified of it getting wet? And wondering why manus. keep insisting on putting the charging ports facing straight up where the rain comes down to collect on it?
Cas :)
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Is it only me that's terrified of high voltage DC? And even more terrified of it getting wet? And wondering why manus. keep insisting on putting the charging ports facing straight up where the rain comes down to collect on it?
Cas :)
It's probably more of a problem with people like me. I am not all that afraid of HV, regardless of DC or AC. And that means I have been zapped a few times! I have worked around HV a lot during high power tube transmitter repair.
BTW, AC is more dangerous than DC (https://www.brighthubengineering.com/power-plants/89792-ac-and-dc-shock-comparison/), but either can kill.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Is it only me that's terrified of high voltage DC? And even more terrified of it getting wet? And wondering why manus. keep insisting on putting the charging ports facing straight up where the rain comes down to collect on it?
Being an EE by trade, I have a very healthy respect for high voltages and the damage they can do. But honestly, if proper design and maintenance precautions are taken, it really shouldn't be an issue on a daily basis. Even heavy rain shouldn't cause problems.
An emergency situation is a different matter. I do worry about the safety of emergency personnel trying to help people as quickly as they possibly can, and spraying water all over a broken and violated vehicle. But I'd still far rather have an emergency in/on an EV than sitting on top of a 10,000 psi hydrogen tank like in one of those Toyota Mirais.
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Great article Don, thanks for that! I had always thought DC was more dangerous (on account of it arcing and causing heart to stop dead) but it seems I am mistaken. Doesn't make me feel a lot safer mind :o
> if proper design and maintenance precautions are taken
That's the bit that bothers me ... there are quite a lot of small niggly flaws in the current crop of leccy bikes that makes me worry about the overall reliability (and hence safety) of their designs. Like, if a Zero is designed badly enough that rather a lot of people are reporting they conk out in the rain because of water ingress... that doesn't fill me with confidence at all. Who's to say that water won't be getting into a bit with 400 amps going through it? And the issues with the belt drive for example belies a certain sort of laissez-faire towards engineering for real-life that worries me.
Cas :)
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A few conked out because installation flaws in the connection bus. That's hardly evidence of laissez-faire engineering. New things are always going to have some difficulty installing, even if they're easier. And again, most bikes have never replaced a belt... We're going to hear about the minority here.
Definitely they need to up their processes to get into the zero maintenance thing, but missed grease, bent pins, and overtightened belts are pretty simple oversights.
-Crissa
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Who's to say that water won't be getting into a bit with 400 amps going through it? And the issues with the belt drive for example belies a certain sort of laissez-faire towards engineering for real-life that worries me.
Cas :)
Well, it would be quite difficult (in fact, not even possible) to draw "400 amps" through water as well as your body being in series with it. Water has too much resistance to draw 400 amps, and so does your body.
400 volts with water could be a problem if that is what you meant. However, I still would NOT worry about that in an EV or sitting on an electric motorcycle. It would be quite difficult for your body to be able to complete a circuit even if the entire thing was in a swimming pool under water with you on it. It Just ain't going to happen. There are much better paths than your body to short things out when the entire bike is wet. I cannot think of any reasonable way to get shocked by simply sitting on an electric motorcycle regardless of how wet it gets. Working on it is a much different story.
I would ride an electric motorcycle in the rain as much as I would any other motorcycle.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Talking high voltage, We might want to remember that, until coil on plug ignition systems, ICE cars and motorcycles had 40000V floating around under the bonnet in a big array( especially on old V8's.) with massive inductive transients. Put your hand on a spark lead sometime ( if you are silly enough). Good design and engineering can get around most problems of voltage/current mentioned here.
If you want dangerous, remember that petrol ( gasoline) used in ICE vehicles , is a high vapour pressure explosive with carcinogenic goodness. We have designed around that, I suspect voltage/current electrics will no more difficult.
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Yeah, the distributor cables on our old Nova would arc into the firewall when we upgraded it. It was a real pain ^-^;
Don's right, though, it's really hard to draw that through you. Unless you're sticking yourself into the battery tabs. And even that's just a burn.
My argument against high voltage electrics is more cost (number of cells, complexity) than anything.
-Crissa
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That's the bit that bothers me ... there are quite a lot of small niggly flaws in the current crop of leccy bikes that makes me worry about the overall reliability (and hence safety) of their designs.
Agreed. Workmanship and design have not been perfect on our bikes, historically, and they never will be PERFECT.
Keep in mind, though, that most if not all of the niggly little stuff has NOT involved the high voltage portions. My bike conked out once after I washed it especially zealously, and came back to life after it dried out thoroughly. Other people have had similar things happen. Clearly, these haven't involved the high-voltage stuff, or there would have been big sparks, audible pops, ozone smells and/or lots of smoke evident. Some low-voltage connector somewhere didn't keep all the water out and caused one or more signals to be interrupted. In some cases, where the bike didn't recover, the shop discovered pretty much the same thing -- bad contacts or a short circuit somewhere in the circuitry, not the high-voltage stuff. I don't know of any cases (of course there may be cases I don't know about) where water ingression caused a problem with the battery pack itself, the motor controller, or the motor.
The high-voltage stuff is pretty simple, and limited in scope: The battery and its BMS, the controller, the motor and the DC-DC converter. If you poke around on your bike, you'll find that all these interconnections are identified with orange cable wraps, well insulated and particular care has been taken to route them and protect them from water incursion. There just haven't been many (if any) problems with any of that.
(Looking at the Lightning Strike review tells another story, though, and it kinda makes my hair stand on end. Clearly they didn't spend anywhere near the time they needed to design and put together safe assemblies. Different story for a different day.)
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Talking high voltage, We might want to remember that, until coil on plug ignition systems, ICE cars and motorcycles had 40000V floating around under the bonnet in a big array( especially on old V8's.) with massive inductive transients. Put your hand on a spark lead sometime ( if you are silly enough).
But that HV is low enough current so the voltage drops under the load of your body. Perhaps to well below 100 volts. And the higher that voltage, the lower the current, so you get even a larger drop. That's why we don't hear of people being killed by such--at least not often. I have heard of many people being zapped by the HV in those old cars, myself included. I have not heard of any serious problems from such (but I will not go as far as saying it cannot happen).
With an EV that voltage will not drop at all. It's VERY high current as well as HV. If you have a 300 VDC battery you get a 300 VDC shock when you get across it. MUCH more dangerous than those older cars with 100 times the voltage.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I did once reach down to try and find out why my old GT550 was running on 3 and grabbed the loose HT lead that was the root of the issue (I was sat on the bike with the engine running at the time). OUUUUUUUUCH. Jeez. It's really painful, not unlike an electric fence. Probably a good thing that my other hand was holding the rubber handlebar.
Cas :)
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This video is on an electric Mini which is all fine and good and watch it all if you'd like. But near the end at the 10:40 mark James May describes the same issues I've been describing in this thread. Like he says Electric is a great club but the batteries have to greatly improve for mass use. Thanks for the back up Mr. May. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=29&v=Pgp0t2uxXfc&feature=emb_logo
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May is right, but he's wrong, too.
If we had charging everywhere, it wouldn't be an issue. The vast minority of cars don't go on long no-stop drives.
-Crissa
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When you see the number of cars driving up the M1 from London to Newcastle in a day you'd maybe think again about that assessment... charging time is a massive issue that isn't actually going to get any better. It's not just the charging time - which is a PITA - we need approximately 100x as many chargers to meet the demand of a 100% electric fleet... and a number of sizeable power stations to power them. Hey ho. I'll be old bones by the time it's a real problem I imagine.
Cas :)
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There are 32.5 million passenger cars in the UK. Each lane has at most optimum 2400 cars per hour. That means even at it most full, with no accidents, a dual-lane segment of the M1 would take 141 days for every car to parade past. But most of the cars you see are the same cars, over and over again.
And no, we wouldn't need a huge amount of new generation of electricity (although that would be a great problem to have). For instance, per capita energy use has been stagnant in California for almost forty years. And even if we were to run electric cars on bunker oil in power stations, we'd use less of it that we use now in gasoline.
We just need more charging points, period. There should be nowhere to go that has anything that takes longer than twenty minutes that doesn't have 1/10 spots that are for charging.
There are millions of spaces with electricity right next to them which could do trickle charging. The vast majority of time cars are not being used but sitting (about 96% of the time, given an average speed of 25mph over a average year of 10k miles). If you have a modern car, it will have a fuel-economy reading, which will have the average speed in there. Do the calculations yourself if you want to!
High-speed charging will never be the cheapest method; it takes more equipment, it can't be time-shifted, it requires greater access to the mains lines. On the vehicle sit it requires a more complex battery. No matter the battery tech, more cells for more voltage is more expensive.
-Crissa
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I think May was arguing that the Achilles heel of BEVs is the charging time, though, and I think he'd probably be right on the money with that observation. Waiting for hours and hours to do another 80-90 miles isn't going to win any customers. This is why Tesla are so far ahead of the other manufacturers (and you should see how staggeringly incompetently they have dropped the ball when they all got together recently to make their own fast charging network, with blackjack, and hookers, etc, etc).
Cas :)
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That's true.
But my point was that we need to install both. You can't limp to a fast-charging station without them, and you can't avoid the expense of fast charging without them, either.
The lack of these in-between stations limits the adoption of cheaper, smaller EVs.
-Crissa
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Definitely. I wonder what the sweet spot for charging is... maybe 30kW DC?
Cas :)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_L2LvCvVWE
It's the wiring to parking that we need. Not fancy charging.
-Crissa
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It's already there for a lot of places in the form of lighting, and with many places switching to LEDs they have the power to spare. I would assume that it's also 220 volts or there abouts so you could even do level 2 for 110v countries. Imagine if they even did it with street lighting (every single lamp post would be a bit excessive, perhaps even 10 posts or something), you'd be able to charge pretty much any place you'd park up.
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This idea about lampposts keeps cropping up, but the actual physical location of the lampposts is just the tip of the iceberg. It's got to be safe enough in all weather, it'll need a payment infrastructure somehow setting up, it'll need a way to automatically flag repairs (or they'll all be broken and fucked within a month, as we see already from all the other chargers that are already out there), but most of all they'll need enough juice to power the whole road with at least 7kW... hmm. I mean it's a great idea, but just a lot more complex and expensive than it seems at a casual glance.
Cas :)
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I know a lot about lampposts and the idea just wouldn't work. Public street lights use very little electricity, especially now that their lamps are usually LED, so their infrastructure is not very robust. Plus, they are billed (at least in California) via a flat-rate system that charges the city or county a monthly flat rate for each street light, which used to be $75 a month some years ago before they were converted from incandescent, to HPS and then LED lamps. So they have no electric meters to pick up power used for each light. To add insult to injury, many of these street lighting systems go from light to light and are maintained by the local city, were installed by Mickey Mouse as cheaply as possible and have been in the ground or on old wood poles for a great many years. It would not be a very reliable way to recharge your cell phone, much less your EV. ;)
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I should note that I'm talking about the UK. The vast majority of our lights used to be sodium before being switched out to LED. I don't exactly how much power that saves but combined with many being on timers now instead of just sensors (they switch off around midnight and back on at 5am) there must be some power left over that some chargers could be added without adding significantly to the load that the lighting system would have seen a decade or two ago.
And yeah I get that it wouldn't be an easy or cheap thing to implement, but it's a possible option that could really help with the widespread adoption of electric vehicles. For funding it wouldn't be that unreasonable to add a separate tax to electric vehicles as they already have a cut compared to ICE ones (bikes for example don't pay any).
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If you're going to all the trouble of upgrading lampposts - which are not present in anywhere near enough numbers anyway, they are mandated to be up to 200 yards apart remember, you may as well change the laws to allow people to run cables from their properties under the pavement and go for a country-wide designated parking bay scheme. (A lot of people in the UK - like, most of them) don't have a dedicated space on the street that's "just theirs", but that'd probably have to change to allow the large number of people without off-road parking to be guaranteed of a charge when they come home.
Cas :)
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I guess it's just a California way of thinking but "THEY" aren't going to give people electricity. No one is going to install 110V outlets all around to help people get around. It's just not how the real world works, sorry.
You've never seen a vending machine that sells a soda can of gasoline for a reason. Even though it "could" be helpful to someone who is out of gas at a shopping mall. Smart people fill up their cars and refill them before they are out, at gas stations all at once and real fast.
I predict it will stay the same for electric cars in the future. Maybe home charging as an option as well but I truly feel our home electricity will go up in price and at a billing type that will punish people for using a large amounts of electricity.
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I just linked why all charge points do not need 7KW. Please watch the video.
The vast majority of vehicles sit around 95% of the time. They just need a place to plug in.
-Crissa
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That'd be called "home" for most people I reckon. I suspect that the other place a vehicle might spend all its time is "work", but they have no reason to look out for anyone. So the only other viable use-case is long distance travel, which means fast chargers... which is what Tesla got right already years ago. For everyone else... we need a charging solution for homes, specifically homes without off-road parking.
Cas :)
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If you're going to all the trouble of upgrading lampposts - which are not present in anywhere near enough numbers anyway, they are mandated to be up to 200 yards apart remember, you may as well change the laws to allow people to run cables from their properties under the pavement and go for a country-wide designated parking bay scheme. (A lot of people in the UK - like, most of them) don't have a dedicated space on the street that's "just theirs", but that'd probably have to change to allow the large number of people without off-road parking to be guaranteed of a charge when they come home.
Cas :)
You're must be thinking of motorways or something because lamp posts on residential roads certainly aren't 200 yards apart (about 180m). Doing some rough measuring on Google maps on my street (because it's not detailed enough to see the lights but I know where they are) they're about 40-50m apart on one side of the road, about half that distance if you count the ones on the opposite side.
Now, you're right that it's no where near enough for everyone to use one, and that's where home charging comes in, but even just a few would be useful. There would need to be something to discourage the same people constantly using the same post right outside their home, a high enough fee to convince them to install an exterior outlet on their house instead but still low enough to be reasonable, but for those people going somewhere where getting access to an outlet wouldn't be possible it would be a huge help.
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The "rule of thumb" for spacing streetlights in the city that I worked for was 180 feet apart and alternating from side-to-side.
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"It states that: Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with "a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart". So that's your worst case scenario.
Cas :)
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Sorry, I didn't see the "up to" in your previous post. In practice I don't think many roads have them 200 yards apart. I remembered that 200 yards is also the distance that speed limit repeater signs are meant to be from each other and one article I read said they're typically on every 7th or 8th lamp post.
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Lamps every 200 yards and signs every 200 yards?
That sounds super-annoying.
-Crissa
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That's only the requirement for "urban" (30mph limits, no mainbeams, etc). They don't actually need to put 30mph repeater signs down (and indeed, they do not) - the existence of the street lighting is enough to mandate the 30mph limit, though they will reinforce this with a sign at the entrance and exit to the zone.
Aaaaanyway, we digress, but even though that's the maximum distance they can be apart, the typical distances are still way, way too far. You need to be within 4m of a lamppost or you'll be carrying 30kg of heavy cable around with you everywhere... I think not. And what was said before about the electrical supply - it's not even remotely rated for the sort of loads envisaged. You may as well start from scratch and install something brand new every 10m along the pavement. Those pop-up devices look interesting but have a fatal flaw in that they ... pop up. And therefore break / jam / get vandalised.
Cas :)
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I've seen a British company that used charging posts that sunk into the ground when not in use. Also street light-charger combos. All well and good but they aren't all over the place are they? For a good reason, they don't make money.
This idea of, give me free power, is just kind of childish. So moving on if I have to pay for it I want it fast and easy. That's where the dedicated gas station/charging stations will dominate the market.
"Meet the new boss same as the old boss" The Who
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Yep. It'll be stations on long-distance routes that will cash in on fast charging capability. And it'll not be any cheaper than petrol in short order, either, because people first and foremost are paying for time when they drive places. That is, after all, the very essence of the motor vehicle. Would you insist on recharging for £5, and wait 4 hours, or would you pay £40 and be on your way in 15 minutes? Case closed, m'lud.
Cas :)
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And what was said before about the electrical supply - it's not even remotely rated for the sort of loads envisaged.
Except it is. There is loads more than we need, and most car charging is at night, anyhow. Sure, we'll need some scheduling, but that's hardly a fancy thing.
What the network isn't designed for is massive spikes like supercharging, which is why those stations will always be more rare and more expensive than L2 and L1 charging.
We need small chargers everywhere. Then we can worry about the high-voltage-highwattage chargers needed for road trips.
-Crissa
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And what was said before about the electrical supply - it's not even remotely rated for the sort of loads envisaged.
Except it is. There is loads more than we need, and most car charging is at night, anyhow. Sure, we'll need some scheduling, but that's hardly a fancy thing.
-Crissa
You seem to be making a choice for scheduling as opposed to a battery absorbing energy when possible and then charging vehicles as needed. Re think the recharge
There is loads more than we need, and most car charging is at night, anyhow.
…….
We need small chargers everywhere. Then we can worry about the high-voltage-highwattage chargers needed for road trips.
-Crissa
I guess for you and I to discuss we really need a definition of what a charger is. More or less my understanding is
A 120 volt outlet and the charger is in the vehicle or a suit case like thing. I guess the KTM and Alta would be here but 250 volt. Category 1
Category 2 the charger is still in the vehicle but there is an interface of some sort J1772 or whatever but AC current is what is supplied
Category 3 Dc charging with communication between vehicle and charging device more advanced.
To discuss in an electric motorcycle forum even a definition of we could be in order. It sure seems to me quite a few folks on here are capable of purchasing a motorcycle new that runs on a 5 1/2 inch wide rear rim. Such folks should surely have a place to plug it in at their residence. If you read the comments section for multiple linked articles it is the lack of range especially at the velocity those 5 1/2 inch wide rim bikes are capable of that keeps the motorcycle segment that is electric small.
Now if "we" is kind of a political issue of how to force things a desired way, why not put all the battery production toward the railroad and over the road long haul trucking where the locomotive or tractor (front half of a semi) could be switched out.
Fran
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You seem to be making a choice for scheduling as opposed to a battery absorbing energy when possible and then charging vehicles as needed. Re think the recharge
That's expensive (you need two or more batteries and more equipment) and wasteful (you lose about half the energy). If you can schedule your re-charge to when it's cheaper, that's a good thing.
Even so, Tesla isn't the first to market to do this, but they've added it to their code. And it's how I hope to use the next EV I buy.
I'm just saying we need to not think of recharging like gasoline - we need to think of it like parking. And yes, I already pay for parking. We all do, whether we think we do or not: Spread out neighborhoods with surface parking make every trip longer, take more time distance and tenergy. Spread out buildings consume more energy. We're always paying for this.
Now if "we" is kind of a political issue of how to force things a desired way, why not put all the battery production toward the railroad and over the road long haul trucking where the locomotive or tractor (front half of a semi) could be switched out.
The vast majority of rail is already using electric-hybrid motors. Most don't have batteries yet, but where they go into cities they had to be hooked up to electrification. All of the big passes were originally electrified, because electric motors always had more torque. We should push to have them electrified again.
This is actually a good place to use hydrogen: Trains and ships don't care about bulk so much, so bulky fuel doesn't matter. They also ply pretty static routes, so you can build only a few refueling stations.
And while most lines can be electrified, some can't (like for instance the ones in my county) so they're looking at hydrogen and battery solutions.
But just like converting lamp posts and parking meters to L2 charging points... We need to create the political will to build it.
-Crissa
And this is clearly the holy grail of charging solutions: https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9991.msg84469#new
It saves energy by allowing direct connection to DC micro-generation or consumption. My friend with two EVs (an old Leaf he rents and a Bolt he drives for Lyft when he's not at his day job) will salivate over this. He has a home built powerwall, a solar system, a Tesla powerwall, and this in the middle would make all work together seamlessly.
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The idea that we have charging stations in each set of restaurants or downtown shopping areas is exactly why all Whole Foods have them. Why Costcos have gas stations - and should have charging stations.
-Crissa
Maybe where you live. NONE of the Whole Foods markets around here have charging stations that I can see...
It's a California thing, maybe. Expensive EVgo CCS/chademo stations. Network created as an Enron-era settlement. They'll charge a Tesla at about 1/3 the rate and cost 10% more than a Tesla Supercharger. Charging an Energica costs about 20% more than that and a Live Wire at about 20% more than that.
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The annoying thing about the Whole Foods chargers is that they replaced the previous paddles and J-plugs they had instead of adding to them.
Which means I don't go to Whole Foods 'cause why would I? I'll go downtown to New Leaf and plug in if I need to.
-Crissa
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Partially related to this topic. This is a vid from MotoGP.com about the MotoE safety measures and charging . Sorry but it probably will only work if you have the MotoGP video pass.
https://www.motogp.com/en/videos/2020/03/11/new-motoe-safety-measures-come-into-effect-for-2020/328019
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I foresee a rejuvenation of the motel industry.
Cas :)
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> The annoying thing about the Whole Foods chargers is that they replaced the previous paddles and J-plugs they had instead of adding to them.
Paddle chargers? Really?
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Well, I don't begrudge them changing out the paddles since nearly all those vehicles are fifteen, twenty years old and not common on the road ever. But the J-plugs are gone which was my point.
-Crissa
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Yeah. But I bet they were free and they probably had cheapskates hogging them all the time not shopping. A better approach would have been to a little, so there's no savings over charging at home.
How many paddle chargers were there?
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So Atlis trucks has stated their new approach to battery design allows them to go from 0% SOC to 100% SOC in 10 minutes.
They say they want a truck that does what any gas truck will do as a work truck and refuel in a short time since time is money.
It sounds like their goal is what I've stated here has to happen for mass EV adoption. 8)
Here's Nikki to tell you all about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVwW8q35iSs
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Thanks Don.
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I don't think that will help EV adoption because that requires a big change to the grid. Large pulses of power are just not going to be okay far from sub stations, which means the fastest charging points will be in weird places.
We need more common charging that doesn't require rewiring our cities. It we aren't willing to do the one, we won't be willing to do the other, either.
-Crissa
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Fewer charging stations that can charge in 10 minutes > a bunch of 110V outlets for the masses.
"Look honey we need to charge up" "Ok dear. Do you see an Exon windmill solar tower charging station around?" "Oh honey of course how can we miss it, they are 100 feet tall."
"I'm going inside to use the restroom." "Better hurry up, in 10 minutes I'm leaving without you." "Oh you kidder you."
(Plot twist, he wasn't kidding) ;D
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So Atlis trucks has stated their new approach to battery design allows them to go from 0% SOC to 100% SOC in 10 minutes.
So its a lithium (LiNiMnCo 'ish) battery being charged at 6C. I don't buy it.
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Well, they never claimed it wouldn't explode at the end did they?
Cas :)
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But the installation of underground tanks and pumps is awkward...
...They don't require a substation the size of a neighborhood and high-tension power lines.
Being able to turn on and off something that is 1.8 Megawatts is massive infrastructure. That's the part I don't see how it's going to work.
-Crissa
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Here you go Valnar, this is a summery of Atlis' battery day discussion from Atlis.
He is saying exactly what I've been saying about what the masses demand for them to switch over to an EV.
Of course we both are saying it because we are very very smart. They only difference is he actually did it and I just said it should be done, but other than that we are the same and deserve equal praise. :)
Kidding aside I'd need to see a lot more demo and a lot less white board but he's on record so he should know he has to put up or shut up at some point so for his reputation's sake I hope he can come through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkPg5XYf8jg
And I just found the whole thing so here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtg-pjEy_SI
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So far it's A) virtual and B) not explaining how to get the charging points created.
We'll see if he can pull it off. But I have serious doubts. Very few rural communities can pull that kind of juice.
-Crissa
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So my prediction aka prophecy of gas stations turning into charging stations seems to be coming true even earlier then I expected. 8)
I give you RS Automotive in Maryland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiDJQqTtpAo
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I think charging companies should look at Nolan Bushnell, the original founder of Atari. Once he sold Atari to Warner Brothers, he had to sign a non-compete contract that kept him out of the video game industry for a period of time (I think it was ten years, but I'm too lazy to check right now).
Anyway, like a lot of people, he decided to look into the restaurant industry... specifically fast food. At the time America's favorite "fast foods" were burgers, hot dogs, and pizza. He wondered why there were SO many places that sold burgers and hot dogs, but very few "fast food" places that served pizza.
Once he did some research, he discovered that although there are plenty of ways to quickly prepare and serve burgers and hot dogs, you just can't make a pizza any faster than the way it was made. So, rather than come up with a way to make the pizza faster, he came up with a way to keep people occupied while their pizza was being prepared... and that's how Chuck E. Cheese was born.
Similar thought could go into charging stations. Give the customer something to do while his vehicle charges. Video games, food, a library... anything to kill time (just NOT a bar, thank you very much). I think that would work out very well.
Hell, most highway truck stops already have everything in place EXCEPT charging stations. Start with those.
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I saw the Atari guy video. Smart guy but two points for his story. One I think he cashed in on the incredibly addictive quarter sapping nature of video games more than their god awful pizzas. Two he was wrong about cooking time as well. Go to a CiCis pizza and the thing hits a conveyor belt at one end and spits out a pizza in about 5 minutes on the other end. Is it a great pizza? No, but they churn them out quick and cheap.
I truly believe charging will be very very fast in the pretty near future. Time is just too valuable to have 30 mins to 1 hour of charge time be acceptable for most people.
By the way Jamie I got to finally use the J1772 to C13 adapter at work with free, I guess because of the virus, charging. Worked great, thanks.
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Actually, Chuck E. Cheese was incredibly successful, but he sold it when his non-compete agreement expired. The subsequent owners apparently are having difficulties as there is only one left in my area (there used to be several). That last one may not survive the COVID-19 shutdown, which is a damned shame; I wanted to celebrate my 65th birthday there!
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In today's newspaper there was a long article by the New York Times, written by Lawrence Ulrich, titled: "Charger desert in big cities keeps electric cars from the mainstream". Sub-titled: " Apartment and townhouse dwellers bemoan the lack of places to juice up their vehicles." That should give you some idea of the subject matter.
One condo resident was quoted as saying that his residents had lobbied building management and the condo board to install chargers in the below-ground and outdoor lots, which offer more than 1,300 parking spaces. But discussions get hung up over where to install chargers, how to pay for electricity, or which residents will benefit.
This paragraph caught my eye: "Obstacles abound. According to a Rocky Mountain Institute study, station installers face daunting 'soft costs', including permitting delays, balkanized regulations and outdated utility models. The fastest DC-charging hardware costs a sobering $100,000 to $150,000, but that station can cost $1 million after siting, permits and construction. An aging electric grid faces bottlenecks and reengineering for an onslaught of car owners."
At the end of the article it states that in the case of Porsche's 350 kWh chargers, quick charging, because of the heat it generates can degrade battery life. One reason DC units automatically slow as batteries cross the 80% threshold. "For time-pressed Americans, even that 20-minute stop would require more patience than a three-minute squirt of gasoline."
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I think Tesla and Westinghouse proved over a hundred years ago how expensive and impractical transmitting DC current over long distances could be. The cost of building DCFC charging stations doesn't surprise me in the least.
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Many of the massively long-distance interlinks are DC now. It's just a matter of making them super-high voltage. That doesn't really have an impact upon charging cars, as it is really impractical and difficult to manage things which are measured in tens of thousands of volts.
But yes, the difficulties of getting power to DC fast charging is only second only to the difficulty of getting it installed or affording the hardware itself.
Getting that siting and permits is the tough part. Which is why I think we should work at both ends: Make sure there's lots of little cables to plug into (which will benefit cheap and small transportation like bikes) as well as regional points to quick charge for distance travel.
Very few people want to admit how infrequently they travel long distances.
-Crissa
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The problem is if that frequency is > 0, and the main usage of the thing. I only travel long distance (over 100 miles a day) on my bike about 3 times a year, but when I do, I do hundreds of miles. In fact it makes up a quarter of my annual mileage, and it's one of the main reasons I have a bike. Judging by the top selling bikes here in the UK, and the people riding them and what they're up to... it's maybe the main market for motorcycles nowadays.
Cas :)
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Except it still isn't.
They dream is not the reality.
-Crissa
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I think it genuinely is, here in the UK and Europe. Touring is big business here in Europe. All the old farts with pots of money have bought huge adventure tourers. Commuting by motorcycle is seen as eccentric in the UK. Sports bike sales have fallen through the floor.
Cas :)
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The vast majority of people don't do long drives, let alone rides.
-Crissa
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I'm really honestly telling you... that's not how it is here in the UK any more. Times changed. Some people are still just going for a burn on Sundays of course, but mostly now everyone has grey hair, and rides to Scotland or the Picos de Europa at the weekend for kicks. The money's there for electric bikes all right, but the range isn't fitting the use cases, so they're just not selling here.
Cas :)
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Check out minute 11 of this video describing the latest motorcycle manufacturer patents of 2020:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUe46Je5-PA
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When demand for 350+kW charging becomes pretty high, you can bet that every major station will have massive battery banks to flatten the power draw.
And for the skepticism around 6C charging, it can be done as long as every cell can be kept at that 50c temperature sweet spot, and this is something Atlis claims their cooling can do.
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A minority of a minority of cars can do that sort of charging doesn't really make for high demand.
-Crissa
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Tesla supercharging pretty much has it sorted does it not?
Cas :)
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Tesla supercharging pretty much has it sorted does it not?
Cas :)
If on the main routes, yes. But there are places in the country where superchargers are out of range, such as here in NV trying to get across the state on US50. It still can be done by slow charging at an RV park, if you have all day, but no superchargers within range of most Teslas. But I assume the 620 mile range 2020 Tesla Roadster can do it.
(https://www.tesla.com/roadster)
I wish electric motorcycles could have that type of range. Maybe someday, but I won't be around to see it.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'd be happy with 150.
Cas :)
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Richaed I bet dollars to doughnuts that kickstand charger is only for little 12 volt batteries for gas bikes or the aux battery for electrics.
Just easier to use than a battery tender.
The guy in the video thinks it will charge a whole big battery pack but it won't. Well maybe in a weeks time but that's about it.
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Richaed I bet dollars to doughnuts that kickstand charger is only for little 12 volt batteries for gas bikes or the aux battery for electrics.
Just easier to use than a battery tender.
The guy in the video thinks it will charge a whole big battery pack but it won't. Well maybe in a weeks time but that's about it.
I have no idea. But since it might be a BMW product some day, you know that it will be a factory option and cost enough to make your wallet cry. ;)
And then I wonder what happens if your garage floods, or you spill your beer while working on your bike, as your BMW is recharging. :o
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I can't be bothered to go back and find the original post but wasn't the kickstand charger inductive? I swear that was the main reason why it would be so ineffective for charging a high voltage high capacity battery.
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I can't be bothered to go back and find the original post but wasn't the kickstand charger inductive? I swear that was the main reason why it would be so ineffective for charging a high voltage high capacity battery.
The kick stand charger patent was shown at the very end of the video that I posted above, I think it started around minute 11.
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I can't be bothered to go back and find the original post but wasn't the kickstand charger inductive? I swear that was the main reason why it would be so ineffective for charging a high voltage high capacity battery.
The kick stand charger patent was shown at the very end of the video that I posted above, I think it started around minute 11.
Oh right, I didn't bother watching the video originally. That's the patent I was thinking of, it's been posted here previous (might not have been this thread). It's a wireless inductive charger so there's no way to make physical conductive contact with a liquid, assuming it's sealed properly.
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https://insideevs.com/news/348233/electric-car-dc-fast-charging-comparison/
Only the Taycan does 350, and there aren't so many of those. That's just not going to 'generate' enough demand for really expensive chargers except in a few places.
That's why we need both lots of little chargers and a few big chargers. If we put all our eggs in one basket, we'll never really break out of the routes we have today.
-Crissa
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You've got to think about the economics of super-fast charging too... it greatly benefits the owners of said chargers if the people using them hang around for half an hour and buy something while they wait that you can make a ton of money on without upsetting anyone too much. I hear petrol stations make tons of money already on shop sales - this situation will actually improve for them if they can pivot their businesses to fit a bunch of cars in doing "fast but not too fast charges". It's a massive opportunity in retail, which is a sector that's been down in the gutter and kicked in the teeth for some time now.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/312207/petrol-station-shop-sales-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/
Cas :)
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Yeah, convenience stores are where gas stations profit now a days.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23904590/ns/business-retail/t/stations-hope-you-fill-more-gas/
-Crissa
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You've got to think about the economics of super-fast charging too... it greatly benefits the owners of said chargers if the people using them hang around for half an hour and buy something while they wait that you can make a ton of money on without upsetting anyone too much. I hear petrol stations make tons of money already on shop sales - this situation will actually improve for them if they can pivot their businesses to fit a bunch of cars in doing "fast but not too fast charges". It's a massive opportunity in retail, which is a sector that's been down in the gutter and kicked in the teeth for some time now.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/312207/petrol-station-shop-sales-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/
Cas :)
There's a reason Tesla superchargers at malls are often are the 70kW variety rather than the 120+ kW variety