ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: Crilly on January 03, 2019, 10:39:30 PM
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Ok Harley, it is January, we are waiting.
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Just don't hold your breath. These things take time. ::)
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Yea I know. Harley has said January. Now we have to wait tell 2/25 for Zero.
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Well now we have some more news. Pricing to be announced in January. ::) Still, reading the limited amount of additional information here, it continues to seem to me that the LiveWire will be priced more in Energica territory than in Zero land.
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/future-vehicles/livewire.html#intcmp_HP_BB1_livewire
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I'm going to be conservative while going out on my limb and say $30K+.... AND Jay Leno will be the only guy who actually buys one !!!!
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I say Zero's level of performance with an Energica price. Brembo brakes, liquid cooling of motor, CCS charging all raise the price. Remember seeing a photo of the belt and it really looked like the same one on my SR.
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I'm not impressed with the charging on j1772, even when using a level 2 station it charges at level 1, so when no CCS stations are available it would charge at 13mph, sad
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$29,799.00! And estimated 110 miles of range!
RideApart has posted an article on it. See the link below.
https://www.rideapart.com/articles/300074/harley-davidson-finally-releases-livewire/
I don't doubt it will sell well for folks who just must have an electric H-D. But they are far more expensive than Energica. Not many other details were given. Whether or not it is worth the premium over Energica all depends on how the other specs compare and how badly someone wants an H-D.
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A "city" range of only 110 miles sounds like a "highway" range of about 50 miles. Not very impressive for that kind of money. My Zero is rated at 202 city miles and costs $13,000 less than the LiveWire. While the LiveWire is an interesting design and no doubt will get a lot of free press from the press, I bet they don't sell very many at that price. Buying an Energica would seem offer a better value at a lower price.
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https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/future-vehicles/livewire.html
They said the "mixed" range is 110, not city. Closer to the "combined" range rating that zero uses. Zero says 120 combined for the SR, so I expect the harley to be pretty comparable, but a little short in real world range.
I definitely expected the price to be high, over 20k, but not this high.
The complete lack of Level 2 charging is totally baffling to me. Level 2 charging stations are the most common, easy to find charger out there. Level 3 is nice but IMO not worth downgrading every level 2 to level 1. I think in order for this to be even remotely liveable Harely is going to have to install multiple level 3 chargers at every dealership.
The cellular features seem like a nice addition but will require a fee after the first year, a fee which they haven't disclosed yet. "First one's free."
Of course there are still a ton of questions, from more detailed specs to the little details. What will servicing it be like? How much are they going to train their service techs, how available will parts and info be, and how much of it will be serviceable and diagnose by the user?
The app itself looks to be too simple from what they've shown, hopefully it will have more menus that can show us the nitty gritty details like battery voltage, cell balance, temperature, etc.
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Cycle World has an article (like everyone else).
Seems the CCS charger can charge to 80% in 40 minutes! Which means it charges at about half the speed that Energica does.
See: https://www.cycleworld.com/2020-harley-davidson-livewire-electric-motorcycle-debuts-at-consumer-electronics-show#page-2
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Here is what the FAQ at that H-D link says about the bike's range:
The high-voltage battery, or RESS, provides 110 miles of range, measured using the MIC city-use cycle.
Riding range estimates based on current SAE testing of LiveWire concept motorcycle. Actual riding range will vary based on several factors including weather and driving conditions.
Also, a national CBS news report that I heard an hour ago said that the LiveWire was designed for urban riding and it accelerates faster than any of the other H-D ICE motorcycle models.
Previous H-D statements have said that every dealer that sells the LiveWire will first have to install a CCS charging station. (Not all dealers will be selling the bike.) That will be one way to get LiveWire customers to return to the shop to purchase accessories and clothing.
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Okay, I'm seeing different articles report the range as "mix of city and higher speed riding" and some just saying city speeds. I'd much rather have a range estimate based on specific speeds like zero has for a clearer picture, but I guess we won't really know with the livewire until people actually have them in their garages.
As expensive as the bike is, I wouldn't be surprised if Harley still loses money on each one, at least for the first couple years. The cost of R&D, manufacturing, and installing charging stations. LVL 3 stations are significantly more expensive to buy and install than LVL 2 stations.
https://insideevs.com/installation-costs-of-electric-car-charging-stations-by-type/
This is from a few years ago, but probably not too far off from current prices. Anywhere between 8.5k-50k for a level 3 charger. When you consider how low volume this thing is going to be, I wonder how many dealers might install a charging station but not sell more than a couple of bikes.
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Okay, I'm seeing different articles report the range as "mix of city and higher speed riding" and some just saying city speeds. I'd much rather have a range estimate based on specific speeds like zero has for a clearer picture, but I guess we won't really know with the livewire until people actually have them in their garages.but not sell more than a couple of bikes.
Just compare the KWH of the battery to a Zero to get an idea of its range. That will probably be the best comparison.
The HD LiveWire has a 7.0 KHW battery.
My Zero SR (with Pwr tank) has 16.3 KWH.
My bike costs about half the price of the Livewire and most likely gets better than double the range at any speed.
From what I have seen so far, it will take a sucker to buy the Livewire.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I think it is safe to say at this point that the specs of the LiveWire are not very impressive based on the price and that Harley will have a tough time selling them. But no one buys a H-D ICE bike based on specs and price either so in this case why should price and specs be a concern for anyone interested in the LiveWire?
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Just noticed looking at photos of the LiveWire that the tires are the same size as what I have on my Energica Eva. Which means from a physical size perspective the LiveWire is more like Energica instead of Zero. There is also the possibility the weight of the LiveWire is a lot closer to what an Energica weighs .
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Just noticed looking at photos of the LiveWire that the tires are the same size as what I have on my Energica Eva. Which means from a physical size perspective the LiveWire is more like Energica instead of Zero. There is also the possibility the weight of the LiveWire is a lot closer to what an Energica weighs .
I don't think the cross-section of tires means much anymore. I have been seeing mid-size motorcycles that are now coming with what used to be sportbike size tires, 120/17 in front and 180/17 in the rear. My Royal Enfield seems quite happy with 3.25/19 and 3.50/19 tires, though. Personally, I think large rear tires are more of a styling statement than an engineering necessity.
But now that you mention it, I haven't seen any statement of the LiveWire's weight yet. Just looking at it, my guess is 550 pounds. However, H-D has never been too concerned about what their motorcycles weigh, so it could be even heavier. ;)
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Here is really all you need to know from what sounds like a Harley insider. Yes there is no level 2 charging 1 or 3 on CCS. Also it uses a 12V Li ion battery and not a DC-DC converter we'll see how that works out. If the dealer near me demos one I may go ride it but disappointing over all in my view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EKvj_u8C28
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But will H-D be copyrighting the sound? ::)
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But now that you mention it, I haven't seen any statement of the LiveWire's weight yet. Just looking at it, my guess is 550 pounds. However, H-D has never been too concerned about what their motorcycles weigh, so it could be even heavier. ;)
The LiveWire is 460 LBS. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_LiveWire)
It weights little because it has a little 7KWH battery. But it still weights quite a bit more than my Zero DS ZF 6.5 which is 317 lbs.
I find nothing impressive about the 30K$ Livewire.
-Don- AUburn, CA
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But now that you mention it, I haven't seen any statement of the LiveWire's weight yet. Just looking at it, my guess is 550 pounds. However, H-D has never been too concerned about what their motorcycles weigh, so it could be even heavier. ;)
The LiveWire is 460 LBS. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_LiveWire)
It weights little because it has a little 7KWH battery. But it still weights quite a bit more than my Zero DS ZF 6.5 which is 317 lbs.
I find nothing impressive about the 30K$ Livewire.
-Don- AUburn, CA
The production LiveWire is starting to sound a lot like the original prototype. ???
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Where has Hd released the kwh of the battery? I found one place that put 7kwh as an estimate but they also called it direct drive. Is the angle drive 1:1?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_LiveWire
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Where has Hd released the kwh of the battery? I found one place that put 7kwh as an estimate but they also called it direct drive. Is the angle drive 1:1?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_LiveWire
That's where I found the info. also. I would not be surprised if it uses the same 7.2 KWH battery as the newer smaller Zeros use.
"Direct drive" in this case means no transmission. IOW, motor direct to the wheel via a belt.
IOW, exactly what was stated there:
"Direct drive (single speed), belt drive via bevel gear"
-Don- Auburn, CA
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On my c evolution I get a little over 7 miles per kWh of mixed riding. So I get a range of 70 to 80 miles. I can live with a mix of 110 miles of mixed riding. When they take my order I well stipulate a useful kWh of at least 15.
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"Direct drive" in this case means no transmission. IOW, motor direct to the wheel via a belt.
IOW, exactly what was stated there:
"Direct drive (single speed), belt drive via bevel gear"
-Don- Auburn, CA
"A direct drive mechanism is one that takes the power coming from a motor without any reductions (such as a gearbox). "
I can see Zero uses a direct drive and the front sprocket at the swingarm pivot.
I do not consider my Ktm or an Alta direct drive any more than an one speed electric drill with two stage reduction.
The range that is supposedly using commonly used testing procedures would seem to indicate more than 7kwh battery. Seems that way. It is not like Harley put the owners manual specifications out lately.
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Where has Hd released the kwh of the battery? I found one place that put 7kwh as an estimate but they also called it direct drive. Is the angle drive 1:1?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_LiveWire
That's where I found the info. also. I would not be surprised if it uses the same 7.2 KWH battery as the newer smaller Zeros use.
There is no way HD would release a 7.2kwh heavy motorcycle claiming 110Miles range. Wikipedia is simply not updated. HD has not released the battery spec, how should Wikipedia know? HD does not post their specs primarily on wikipedia, and all the sources for that article are from 2014. We can all guess a number, but 110 miles range mixed driving on a heavier bike requires at least 11kwh, more likely 12-15.
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I am going to guess 11kWh usable battery capacity. Have seen it mentioned about 8 1/2 hours to charge on L1. Charging power much above 1300 watts and the chances of blowing fuzes goes up a lot. 1300 watts X 8.5 hours = 11050 kWh. Thoughts?
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Plausible. Harley gives a CCS loading speed of 192 miles / hour.
In the video you can see the APP with the info about CCS 300Volt 50Amper
The rest is mathematics
300Volt * 50 Amper=15W
15W/192 miles= 0,078125
0,078125*117miles =9,14kWh usable power + 1-2 security kWh = 10-11kWh 100% battery size :o
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My c evolution charges 10 mph at 13 amps. For Harley to get 13 mph charging, they have to charge at 17 amps. 120 volt at 17 amps is about 2 kWh. 2 kWh times 8.5 hours is 17 kWhs. I hope I am right.
My Prius prime charges at 16 amps. 16 times 120 equals 1920 watts times 8.5 equals 16.3 kWh usefull.
7.3 miles per kWh times 15 equals 110 miles.
So my conclusion is it has to have at least 15 kWh. If not I will buy a zero sr (F).
I might need two. One before lunch and one to ride after.
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I think 17 amps is more than most home outlets in the US can handle. I know the outlets in my garage are only 15 amps.
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Mine are 20 amp circuit breakers.
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Hello
The charging power of the onboard loader can also be read from the APP
140Volt 12 Amp
140Vx12A = 1680W
1680WX8,5 = 14,28kWh
14.28kWh-5/7% charge loss (efficiency) = 13.28kWh
13.28-15% (loading speed above 80% SOC) = 11.28kWh
An invoice with data directly from Harley.
Range 110 miles 100-0% SOC. Onbordcharger Performance 13miles / hour.
Charger works with 100% line at 0-80% SOC
110miles X 0.8 = 88 miles
1680W / hour charger = 13 miles
88miles / 13miles = 6.76
6,76x1680W = 11,356kWh Net power!!!!!!! :D
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So the battery size is close to Energica which has 11.7 kWh available. If this is true then the idea of 110 miles range will only be accurate if you are riding at about 25 MPH in an urban environment. The owners manual for the Eva 107, page 63 gives range as 67.1 miles. Yes you can get more than that but for trip planning purposes that is a good number.
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So the battery size is close to Energica which has 11.7 kWh available. If this is true then the idea of 110 miles range will only be accurate if you are riding at about 25 MPH in an urban environment. The owners manual for the Eva 107, page 63 gives range as 67.1 miles. Yes you can get more than that but for trip planning purposes that is a good number.
Harley writes
ESTIMATED 110 MILE RANGE*
The LiveWireâ„¢ motorcycle features a high voltage battery that produces incredible acceleration. It means plenty of range and torque on tap for unlocking the city.
*Riding range estimates based on current SAE testing of LiveWire concept motorcycle. Actual riding range will vary based on several factors including weather and driving conditions.
Why is a range estimated according to SAE. ::)
That's a test standard with fixed values ​​!
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The SAE test is probably the one official test that will give the most optimistic range of anything out there. Whether it is realistic doesn't matter.
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Yes, that's right
Zero does not do it any differently ;)
"A “City†range test is specified to determine riding range during “stop-and-go†operation typically found in urban areas. This estimate is provided following the SAE J2982 Riding Range Test Procedure for On-Highway Electric Motorcycles to provide a reasonable and consistent basis for manufacturers to inform prospective owners of the riding range that can be expected under specified operating conditions. Actual range will vary based upon riding conditions and habits."
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I continue to find it interesting that H-D and press reports keep mentioning that the LiveWire is optimized for city or urban riding. I have yet to hear any mention about freeway range or top speed. I still think that H-D keeps thinking that most of their customers are "bar hoppers". ::)
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Probably more about how if they mention it has a highway range of 40-50 miles it's going to make it look a lot worse than it already does.
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Hwy 80 to 90 miles. Would be 50% more than Energica.
Now for the next question. Pods or cells?
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For reference the SAE test that Harley is referencing J2982 is 2 tests combined into 1 figure referred to as "Highway commuting range".
Both of these tests are done on a dyno, because of this wind resistance is not a factor, so comparisons to "real world" driving range are not accurate. In addition you are not accelerating the mass of the bike just spinning the rear wheel.
The first test is simple you take a fully charged bike and run it at 70mph until it is unable to maintain that speed or the bike faults or shuts off.
The second test is a mixed stop and go test simulating city driving. Here is a graph showing speed and time (in seconds).
(http://i65.tinypic.com/140grw4.png)
Then you take the results and plug them into this formula.
HCR = 1/(.5/RangeCity + .5/RangeConstantspeed)
I am going to hedge my bet on the bike having a 8.5kWh battery pack (usable)
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Motorcycle.com picks apart the H-D electric bicycle and scooter concepts:
https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/harley-davidson-reveals-two-electric-urban-mobility-concepts-at-ces.html
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There is no way HD would release a 7.2kwh heavy motorcycle claiming 110Miles range. Wikipedia is simply not updated. HD has not released the battery spec, how should Wikipedia know? HD does not post their specs primarily on wikipedia, and all the sources for that article are from 2014. We can all guess a number, but 110 miles range mixed driving on a heavier bike requires at least 11kwh, more likely 12-15.
There are almost infinite variables possible to determine range.
For an example, I can probably prove my Zero DS ZF 6.5 MPH can also do 110 miles. All I have to do is ride it continuously at 15 to 20 MPH. When I had this bike in Cottonwood, AZ, I was doing all city riding with a 20 MPH speed limit on level ground. The display said I could do 125 miles on this bike that is supposed to only get "74 miles city". It was probably fairly accurate. I figure every time we double the speed we get about half the range and vice versa.
I can also show it will only get around 15 miles. All I need to do is go WOT continuously uphill.
So I ignore all range BS on electrical bikes unless they give us all the facts, such as the weight of the rider, the exact speed used, how level and much more and all testing done by somebody other than the manufacturers. I would believe probably believe a competitor the most.
It's quite a bit more difficult to cheat on battery KWH. Could that be why H-D does not even mention it?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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DonTom,
Another technique is to just ride downhill! Last July I rode my Eva 107 out to western NC. One day I rode west on the Cherohala Skyway into eastern TN. At one point with 39% SOC remaining I had an estimated 181 miles left! As you head west on the Cherohala Skyway it is generally all uphill until you reach the TN border and then it is mainly downhill for miles.
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DonTom,
Another technique is to just ride downhill! Last July I rode my Eva 107 out to western NC. One day I rode west on the Cherohala Skyway into eastern TN. At one point with 39% SOC remaining I had an estimated 181 miles left! As you head west on the Cherohala Skyway it is generally all uphill until you reach the TN border and then it is mainly downhill for miles.
Yep, and they could take a photo of that and claim a 400 mile range.
BTW, they cannot cheat on the range of E-cars. The EPA says my Tesla Model 3 has a 310 mile range on a charge and the equivalent of 116 MPG if converted to the cost of gasoline (using averages). But here in CA, you can change your PG&E rate to pay only 50% after 2300 hrs. That means 232 MPG. We can also make this change on our E-M/C. Just need a vin number and go here. (https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/electric-vehicle-base-plan/electric-vehicle-base-plan.page)
Also, with the six months of free SuperCharging, it's even better than that 232 MPG for a half year with my Tesla.
And here is an interesting fact. The EPA is willing to LOWER the MPC on request from the manufacturer. Tesla actually did that with the single motor Model 3 RWD (but I have the AWD--two motors). The reason they did this is the RWD had a 320 mile range (according to the EPA) , but the more expensive dual motor (that I own) only got a 310 mile range according to the EPA same testing. Tesla did NOT want to admit their more expensive car got LESS range, even if only by ten miles. So they had the EPA reduce the range of the RWD to match mine. But the reality is that the cheaper RWD has a 10 mile range more than mine on a full charge according to the actual EPA tests.
I don't think the EPA gets involved with E-motorcycles. That means H-D and the others may legally claim anything they want for the range. This means, for our E- M/Cs we have NO NUMBERS TO COMPARE to other makes! But there are still many other things we can compare, such as battery KWH to get a rough idea of range. Again, I wonder why Harley won't disclose such an important number in their specs.
Because of this, I assume the Wikipedia article is correct claiming a 7.0 KWH battery until I hear differently.
Harley . . .Speak up!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I don't think the EPA gets involved with E-motorcycles. That means H-D and the others may legally claim anything they want for the range. This means, for our E- M/Cs we have NO NUMBERS TO COMPARE to other makes! But there are still many other things we can compare, such as battery KWH to get a rough idea of range. Again, I wonder why Harley won't disclose such an important number in their specs.
Because of this, I assume the Wikipedia article is correct claiming a 7.0 KWH battery until I hear differently.
Harley . . .Speak up!
-Don- Auburn, CA
Don you might want to read my above post.
The 110 mile range Harley states and the 120 mile range Zero states for the SR14.4 are both results obtained by the SAE J2982 Riding Range Test Procedure. So those numbers are apples to apples comparisons. If those numbers are real world use or not is a different matter, the important thing is the bikes are tested in the same ways.
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Don you might want to read my above post.
The 110 mile range Harley states and the 120 mile range Zero states for the SR14.4 are both results obtained by the SAE J2982 Riding Range Test Procedure. So those numbers are apples to apples comparisons. If those numbers are real world use or not is a different matter, the important thing is the bikes are tested in the same ways.
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I can only agree.
Something is when HD makes a secret
Zero will not come to with a 15-20kWh battery. The light,leaking tin can battery can not be the future for a new model.
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Don you might want to read my above post.
The 110 mile range Harley states and the 120 mile range Zero states for the SR14.4 are both results obtained by the SAE J2982 Riding Range Test Procedure. So those numbers are apples to apples comparisons. If those numbers are real world use or not is a different matter, the important thing is the bikes are tested in the same ways.
I would like to add that Zero claims a range of 202 miles for my (claimed, nominal) 16.3 KWH 2018 S. (Gotta love that word "nominal". ::) ). Doing a little math, that would put the LiveWire's battery pack at around 8.9 KWH, if both companies used the same amount of "nominal" claims for range and battery capacity. (Something that I wouldn't put any money on, though. ;) )
I can only agree.
Something is when HD makes a secret
Zero will not come to with a 15-20kWh battery. The light,leaking tin can battery can not be the future for a new model.
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A little more kWh it will be because the HD has no direct engine drives
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One other comment: I note that the LiveWire was prominently displayed on the Panasonic stage at the CES. I guess that might indicate that the LiveWire uses Panasonic batteries. Would those be cylindrical batteries? ??? If so, that would mean they are in a less dense package than Zero's Farsis cells.
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Can build Panasonic only cylindrical batteries? ???
Nobody can outdo the energy density of Zero. The Zero battery case is just cheap.
The other manufacturers have high-quality battery case and they are just big and heavy for that reason synonymous high quality :P
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One other comment: I note that the LiveWire was prominently displayed on the Panasonic stage at the CES. I guess that might indicate that the LiveWire uses Panasonic batteries. Would those be cylindrical batteries? ??? If so, that would mean they are in a less dense package than Zero's Farsis cells.
Probably tech they hoodwinked Alta for !!!!
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Don you might want to read my above post.
The 110 mile range Harley states and the 120 mile range Zero states for the SR14.4 are both results obtained by the SAE J2982 Riding Range Test Procedure. So those numbers are apples to apples comparisons. If those numbers are real world use or not is a different matter, the important thing is the bikes are tested in the same ways.
Thanks, I somehow missed that post.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The price point is just crazy... The first Tesla had the price of a Porsche - there was a market for it. For that i'm not really sure. Plus in Europe many Harley dealership charge fortunes for parts and services. What the world needs is an "Eletrictrical Honda" - large dealers network, solid second hand market and enough competition between dealers to ensure customers are well served.
Okay, I'm seeing different articles report the range as "mix of city and higher speed riding" and some just saying city speeds. I'd much rather have a range estimate based on specific speeds like zero has for a clearer picture, but I guess we won't really know with the livewire until people actually have them in their garages.
As expensive as the bike is, I wouldn't be surprised if Harley still loses money on each one, at least for the first couple years. The cost of R&D, manufacturing, and installing charging stations. LVL 3 stations are significantly more expensive to buy and install than LVL 2 stations.
https://insideevs.com/installation-costs-of-electric-car-charging-stations-by-type/
This is from a few years ago, but probably not too far off from current prices. Anywhere between 8.5k-50k for a level 3 charger. When you consider how low volume this thing is going to be, I wonder how many dealers might install a charging station but not sell more than a couple of bikes.
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The price point is just crazy... The first Tesla had the price of a Porsche - there was a market for it. For that i'm not really sure. Plus in Europe many Harley dealership charge fortunes for parts and services. What the world needs is an "Eletrictrical Honda" - large dealers network, solid second hand market and enough competition between dealers to ensure customers are well served.
Honda is already a step further
https://autowise.com/honda-hydrogen-fuel-cell/
In Japan, it is not believes in electric mobility. but on in hydrogen.
The hydrogen drive will be hir with millions of dollar-boosted
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I get the feeling that H-D is really not interested in volume sales of the LiveWire but in its promotional effects in news reports and in whatever goodwill it might create with various county's, or EU, regulators. Plus, it allows them to offset a little of the pollution that is created by selling their "big twins" and the Sportster. But at that price, I wouldn't expect to see them sell more than a few hundred a year, which is not going to do much to pay them back for the cost of the design and manufacture of the LiveWire.
On the other hand, perhaps they will do the Energica thing and sell the bike at a high price for the first year and when initial sales start to slacken off, start dropping the MSRP the following year so as to increase sales again - which will also help to cut the resale value of the bikes that are in owner's hands,of course.
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The price point is just crazy... The first Tesla had the price of a Porsche - there was a market for it. For that i'm not really sure. Plus in Europe many Harley dealership charge fortunes for parts and services. What the world needs is an "Eletrictrical Honda" - large dealers network, solid second hand market and enough competition between dealers to ensure customers are well served.
Honda is already a step further
https://autowise.com/honda-hydrogen-fuel-cell/
In Japan, it is not believes in electric mobility. but on in hydrogen.
The hydrogen drive will be hir with millions of dollar-boosted
Takes WAY more energy to make, storage, transport, etc. hydrogen to use as a fuel, vs just using that energy to power a motorcycle! This is a huge waste.
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Who cares about the energy consumption of a motorcycle?
Actually only Nerds :D
How much energy is used to generate a battery? This can drive a normal motorcycle 60,000 miles !!!!!
If Japan goes this way and also offers gas stations, no one will buy an electric motorcycle with a short range and loading times of one hour and more.
Hydrogen can alredy today be stored without pressure in a liquid.
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How much energy is used to generate a battery? This can drive a normal motorcycle 60,000 miles !!!!!
I'm so tired of this red herring. All vehicles require large amounts of energy to produce, EVs no more so than any other vehicle. What's your point?
If Japan goes this way and also offers gas stations, no one will buy an electric motorcycle with a short range and loading times of one hour and more.
Hydrogen can alredy today be stored without pressure in a liquid.
As technology improves, ranges are increasing and charge times are decreasing. Yes, it's a weakness for EVs, but it's becoming less and less so every year.
And no, you can't store hydrogen "without pressure" except at extreme cryogenic temperatures. One of the reasons "fool cell" vehicles are so heavy is because they have to carry a very strong pressure vessel to store the fuel. If there's a flaw in said pressure vessel, or in the event of an accident, they become a very powerful bomb, spraying highly combustible fuel all over the place.
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After 5 years of construction, the H2 station across the street from Alice's Restaurant is finally almost complete. All it needs now is landscaping, interior furnishings - and someone who actually wants to lease the facility and manage it. Right now there doesn't seem to be a stampede to get to the H2 trough. ::) The infrastructure to construct this station is just amazing. It looks just like a small oil refinery. And I read one source that said that half of the hydrogen at the station will have to be trucked into the mountains, where it will be stored at the facility. Naturally, the delivery trucks will be diesel powered. :o
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How much energy is used to generate a battery? This can drive a normal motorcycle 60,000 miles !!!!!
I'm so tired of this red herring. All vehicles require large amounts of energy to produce, EVs no more so than any other vehicle. What's your point?
As technology improves, ranges are increasing and charge times are decreasing. Yes, it's a weakness for EVs, but it's becoming less and less so every year.
And no, you can't store hydrogen "without pressure" except at extreme cryogenic temperatures. One of the reasons "fool cell" vehicles are so heavy is because they have to carry a very strong pressure vessel to store the fuel. If there's a flaw in said pressure vessel, or in the event of an accident, they become a very powerful bomb, spraying highly combustible fuel all over the place.
That is wrong >:(
https://www.hydrogenious.net/index.php/en/hydrogen-2-2/
A version similar to NanoFlowCell concept with only one liquid would be possible
https://www.nanoflowcell.com/de/what-we-do/prototyping/quant-48volt/
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After 5 years of construction, the H2 station across the street from Alice's Restaurant is finally almost complete. All it needs now is landscaping, interior furnishings - and someone who actually wants to lease the facility and manage it. Right now there doesn't seem to be a stampede to get to the H2 trough. ::) The infrastructure to construct this station is just amazing. It looks just like a small oil refinery. And I read one source that said that half of the hydrogen at the station will have to be trucked into the mountains, where it will be stored at the facility. Naturally, the delivery trucks will be diesel powered. :o
Also, electric cars are partly charged with coal electricity. There are also fast charging stations where there is a"Caterpillar" support unit for the support so that the power grid does not collapse !!!
https://www.mimikama.at/allgemein/tesla-ladestation/
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That is wrong >:(
https://www.hydrogenious.net/index.php/en/hydrogen-2-2/
A version similar to NanoFlowCell concept with only one liquid would be possible
https://www.nanoflowcell.com/de/what-we-do/prototyping/quant-48volt/
Okay, a new technology I'm not familiar with, that's fair.
If I had more time right now I'd really dig in, but here's what I'm seeing so far:
1) Their smallest systems seem to be container-sized...fine for stationary installations, not going to work for vehicles.
2) The storage of hydrogen into the medium requires 30 bar of pressure, which is over 450 psi.
3) Storage also is exothermic, so would require lots of cooling. Even the smallest size (10-foot container footprint) requires 400 VAC power.
4) Hydrogen storage is only at a 9kg per hour rate, in the footprint of a 10-foot container. This is way, way below recharging rates for any battery.
5) Release is endothermic, so requires a lot of heat energy to liberate the hydrogen -- at 300 degrees C!
6) The 20-foot container release system liberates 0.9kg of hydrogen per hour, requiring 10kW of heat to do so, provided by 400 or 480V three-phase. That output seems inadequate even for a small vehicle. Spec says it can't be throttled down below 50%, either.
Okay, it's an interesting technology, but the size, weight, power requirements and uptake/delivery rates make it completely unsuitable for any sort of vehicle. Further development is always possible, but any idiot can make promises. Actual engineering is far harder.
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Oops, I miscalculated on my last post. A kg of hydrogen has about the same energy content as a gallon of gasoline, so a storage/release rate of 9kg per hour is pretty reasonable, and sufficient for even a fairly large EV. But my other points remain valid.
And I'm not even going to dignify the old "but electricity comes from coal" argument with a response.
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The liquid is not flammable with hydrogen and needs not pressure! What do you think the technology in 5 years can?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ar-hWx74P0
The next development is to convert the liquid directly into the fuel cell ;D
The liquid was registered 2018. She was developed for safety that's why the temperature is so high.
Does the US have any coal-fired power plants. How high is the coal power share
The share of fracking gas is of course even greater
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> Also, electric cars are partly charged with coal electricity. There are also fast charging stations where there is a"Caterpillar" support unit for the support so that the power grid does not collapse !!!
go away, troll. electricity only gets cleaner, and renewable is becoming cheaper than coal
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go away, troll. electricity only gets cleaner, and renewable is becoming cheaper than coal
Why Troll ???
Are you stupid
Unfortunately, electricity can not be stored in large quantities !!!!!
We need a storage medium that captures the renewable energies
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I am an old Harley rider ,and I wanted one of these new fangled Livewire bikes with a passion. Over my life I've paid OTT for ownership of a vehicle from the mothership(HD) and was happy to do so as I'm in a club that only has Harleys (OMC).Exclusivity comes with the price of an admission to our way of life.
With the pricing of the Livewire it's sad to say HD has priced me out of the market, not by a little but by a huge margin.
If it was a little too dear I would of asked my local HD guy who I've known over 40yrs to sell me the first demo Livewire at a good price , not going to happen it's way too dear.
If it was too dear I would of traded a Harley + $ for it , not going to happen. My current HD's are too good.
The way too dear scenario was wait for a 2nd hand one , not going to happen , it'll still be stupidly overpriced.
As it stands HD who I have supported for over 30 years has lost me forever.
I will buy something from here https://electrek.co/guides/electric-motorcycle/ maybe two FFS, with the Strike looking like the one for me.
Just a disappointed old greybeard penning his lamentations kids.
Cheers.
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Honda is already a step further
It's not: https://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/index.php/intelligent-energy-env/
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Cheer up Badness, Energica was over 30k when it came out and then they woke up and dropped down to lower 20ks or so.
I would say no matter what test ride it as your years of ownership paid for the R&D.
That Lightning sounds exciting but their LS 218 has been out for years with no real sales so I put them in a "prove it" category.
Either way keep riding as long as you can, it keeps you young.
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Cheer up Badness, Energica was over 30k when it came out and then they woke up and dropped down to lower 20ks or so.
I would say no matter what test ride it as your years of ownership paid for the R&D.
That Lightning sounds exciting but their LS 218 has been out for years with no real sales so I put them in a "prove it" category.
Either way keep riding as long as you can, it keeps you young.
It's all good man.
I thought the LS 218 was just to keep them with some income till a/this new bike hit the market myself.
To get them on the map so to speak and It's done that in spades through sheer performance .
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Just found the Livewire is the auction bike at the Black and Blue Ball in Milwaukee in May.
The Black and Blue Ball benefits MDA.
I well bet it goes for over $40,000.00.
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After 5 years of construction, the H2 station across the street from Alice's Restaurant is finally almost complete. All it needs now is landscaping, interior furnishings - and someone who actually wants to lease the facility and manage it. Right now there doesn't seem to be a stampede to get to the H2 trough. ::) The infrastructure to construct this station is just amazing. It looks just like a small oil refinery. And I read one source that said that half of the hydrogen at the station will have to be trucked into the mountains, where it will be stored at the facility. Naturally, the delivery trucks will be diesel powered. :o
I want to find out where the hydrogen filling station is?
Is it near an Anheuser-Busch branch?
They ordered 800 hydrogen trucks. :D
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After 5 years of construction, the H2 station across the street from Alice's Restaurant is finally almost complete. All it needs now is landscaping, interior furnishings - and someone who actually wants to lease the facility and manage it. Right now there doesn't seem to be a stampede to get to the H2 trough. ::) The infrastructure to construct this station is just amazing. It looks just like a small oil refinery. And I read one source that said that half of the hydrogen at the station will have to be trucked into the mountains, where it will be stored at the facility. Naturally, the delivery trucks will be diesel powered. :o
I want to find out where the hydrogen filling station is?
Is it near an Anheuser-Busch branch?
They ordered 800 hydrogen trucks. :D
Here's the google street view of the construction fences around the hydrogen station construction project:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Restrooms/@37.3862725,-122.2638476,3a,75y,15.28h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swr75CqBgfzkKzmJTXOyjIw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dwr75CqBgfzkKzmJTXOyjIw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D86%26h%3D86%26yaw%3D15.280499%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!4m8!1m2!2m1!1salice's+restaurant!3m4!1s0x808fa5d8ed81b20b:0x95435e5c378bc034!8m2!3d37.3865232!4d-122.2637853
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Why is any of this in the Livewire section , can somebody please clean this up ?
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Why don't you write the admin personally?