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[centra12]

Don you might want to read my above post.

The 110 mile range Harley states and the 120 mile range Zero states for the SR14.4 are both results obtained by the SAE J2982 Riding Range Test Procedure. So those numbers are apples to apples comparisons. If those numbers are real world use or not is a different matter, the important thing is the bikes are tested in the same ways.
[/quote]


I can only agree.

Something is when HD makes a secret

Zero will not come to with a 15-20kWh battery. The light,leaking tin can battery can not be the future for a new model.

[Richard230]

Don you might want to read my above post.

The 110 mile range Harley states and the 120 mile range Zero states for the SR14.4 are both results obtained by the SAE J2982 Riding Range Test Procedure. So those numbers are apples to apples comparisons. If those numbers are real world use or not is a different matter, the important thing is the bikes are tested in the same ways.

I would like to add that Zero claims a range of 202 miles for my (claimed, nominal) 16.3 KWH 2018 S.  (Gotta love that word "nominal".  ).  Doing a little math, that would put the LiveWire's battery pack at around 8.9 KWH, if both companies used the same amount of "nominal" claims for range and battery capacity. (Something that I wouldn't put any money on, though.    )


I can only agree.

Something is when HD makes a secret

Zero will not come to with a 15-20kWh battery. The light,leaking tin can battery can not be the future for a new model.
[/quote]

[centra12]

A little more kWh it will be because the HD has no direct engine drives

[Richard230]

One other comment:  I note that the LiveWire was prominently displayed on the Panasonic stage at the CES.  I guess that might indicate that the LiveWire uses Panasonic batteries.  Would those be cylindrical batteries?  If so, that would mean they are in a less dense package than Zero's Farsis cells.

[centra12]

Can build Panasonic only  cylindrical batteries?

 
Nobody can outdo the energy density of Zero. The Zero battery case is just cheap.
The other manufacturers have high-quality battery case and they are just big and heavy for that reason synonymous high quality 

[ultratoad]

One other comment:  I note that the LiveWire was prominently displayed on the Panasonic stage at the CES.  I guess that might indicate that the LiveWire uses Panasonic batteries.  Would those be cylindrical batteries?  If so, that would mean they are in a less dense package than Zero's Farsis cells.

Probably tech they hoodwinked Alta for !!!!

[DonTom]

Don you might want to read my above post.

The 110 mile range Harley states and the 120 mile range Zero states for the SR14.4 are both results obtained by the SAE J2982 Riding Range Test Procedure. So those numbers are apples to apples comparisons. If those numbers are real world use or not is a different matter, the important thing is the bikes are tested in the same ways.

Thanks, I somehow missed that post.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Moto7575]

The price point is just crazy... The first Tesla had the price of a Porsche - there was a market for it. For that i'm not really sure. Plus in Europe many Harley dealership charge fortunes for parts and services. What the world needs is an "Eletrictrical Honda" - large dealers network, solid second hand market and enough competition between dealers to ensure customers are well served.

Okay, I'm seeing different articles report the range as "mix of city and higher speed riding" and some just saying city speeds. I'd much rather have a range estimate based on specific speeds like zero has for a clearer picture, but I guess we won't really know with the livewire until people actually have them in their garages.

As expensive as the bike is, I wouldn't be surprised if Harley still loses money on each one, at least for the first couple years. The cost of R&D, manufacturing, and installing charging stations. LVL 3 stations are significantly more expensive to buy and install than LVL 2 stations.
https://insideevs.com/installation-costs-of-electric-car-charging-stations-by-type/

This is from a few years ago, but probably not too far off from current prices. Anywhere between 8.5k-50k for a level 3 charger. When you consider how low volume this thing is going to be, I wonder how many dealers might install a charging station but not sell more than a couple of bikes.

[centra12]

The price point is just crazy... The first Tesla had the price of a Porsche - there was a market for it. For that i'm not really sure. Plus in Europe many Harley dealership charge fortunes for parts and services. What the world needs is an "Eletrictrical Honda" - large dealers network, solid second hand market and enough competition between dealers to ensure customers are well served.

Honda is already a step further

https://autowise.com/honda-hydrogen-fuel-cell/

In Japan, it is not believes in electric mobility. but on  in hydrogen.
The hydrogen drive will be hir with millions of dollar-boosted

[Richard230]

I get the feeling that H-D is really not interested in volume sales of the LiveWire but in its promotional effects in news reports and in whatever goodwill it might create with various county's, or EU, regulators.  Plus, it allows them to offset a little of the pollution that is created by selling their "big twins" and the Sportster. But at that price, I wouldn't expect to see them sell more than a few hundred a year, which is not going to do much to pay them back for the cost of the design and manufacture of the LiveWire.

On the other hand, perhaps they will do the Energica thing and sell the bike at a high price for the first year and when initial sales start to slacken off, start dropping the MSRP the following year so as to increase sales again - which will also help to cut the resale value of the bikes that are in owner's hands,of course.

[nevetsyad]

The price point is just crazy... The first Tesla had the price of a Porsche - there was a market for it. For that i'm not really sure. Plus in Europe many Harley dealership charge fortunes for parts and services. What the world needs is an "Eletrictrical Honda" - large dealers network, solid second hand market and enough competition between dealers to ensure customers are well served.

Honda is already a step further

https://autowise.com/honda-hydrogen-fuel-cell/

In Japan, it is not believes in electric mobility. but on  in hydrogen.
The hydrogen drive will be hir with millions of dollar-boosted

Takes WAY more energy to make, storage, transport, etc. hydrogen to use as a fuel, vs just using that energy to power a motorcycle! This is a huge waste.

[centra12]

Who cares about the energy consumption of a motorcycle? 
Actually only Nerds

How much energy is used to generate a battery? This can drive a normal motorcycle 60,000 miles !!!!!



If Japan goes this way and also offers gas stations, no one will buy an electric motorcycle with a short range and loading times of one hour and more.
Hydrogen can alredy today be stored without pressure in a liquid.

[Doug S]

How much energy is used to generate a battery? This can drive a normal motorcycle 60,000 miles !!!!!

I'm so tired of this red herring. All vehicles require large amounts of energy to produce, EVs no more so than any other vehicle. What's your point?

If Japan goes this way and also offers gas stations, no one will buy an electric motorcycle with a short range and loading times of one hour and more.
Hydrogen can alredy today be stored without pressure in a liquid.

As technology improves, ranges are increasing and charge times are decreasing. Yes, it's a weakness for EVs, but it's becoming less and less so every year.

And no, you can't store hydrogen "without pressure" except at extreme cryogenic temperatures. One of the reasons "fool cell" vehicles are so heavy is because they have to carry a very strong pressure vessel to store the fuel. If there's a flaw in said pressure vessel, or in the event of an accident, they become a very powerful bomb, spraying highly combustible fuel all over the place.

[Richard230]

After 5 years of construction, the H2 station across the street from Alice's Restaurant is finally almost complete. All it needs now is landscaping, interior furnishings - and someone who actually wants to lease the facility and manage it. Right now there doesn't seem to be a stampede to get to the H2 trough.    The infrastructure to construct this station is just amazing. It looks just like a small oil refinery. And I read one source that said that half of the hydrogen at the station will have to be trucked into the mountains, where it will be stored at the facility. Naturally, the delivery trucks will be diesel powered.   

[centra12]

How much energy is used to generate a battery? This can drive a normal motorcycle 60,000 miles !!!!!

I'm so tired of this red herring. All vehicles require large amounts of energy to produce, EVs no more so than any other vehicle. What's your point?



As technology improves, ranges are increasing and charge times are decreasing. Yes, it's a weakness for EVs, but it's becoming less and less so every year.

And no, you can't store hydrogen "without pressure" except at extreme cryogenic temperatures. One of the reasons "fool cell" vehicles are so heavy is because they have to carry a very strong pressure vessel to store the fuel. If there's a flaw in said pressure vessel, or in the event of an accident, they become a very powerful bomb, spraying highly combustible fuel all over the place.

That is wrong

https://www.hydrogenious.net/index.php/en/hydrogen-2-2/


A version similar to NanoFlowCell concept with only one liquid would be possible

https://www.nanoflowcell.com/de/what-we-do/prototyping/quant-48volt/