ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: Crissa on May 09, 2021, 03:16:16 PM
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https://youtu.be/ZrHad73VLkE?t=474s
TEN337@7:54
Energica CEO hints at 15min to 80% 'soon'.
No timetable, but interesting, right?
-Crissa
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Your video isn't working.
-Don-
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Your video isn't working.
Fixed. The embed didn't like my link.
-Crissa
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No question it sounds interesting. But when you look at fast charging Energica took a few steps backward with the Ribelle compared to the Eva 107. The Eva 107 did not start to taper until 70% SOC and the battery temp would still be in the green in temps below 90 degrees. Last Saturday I started CCS charging with my Ribelle with 8% SOC remaining. It started to taper at 38% SOC. When I stopped charging at 80% SOC the battery icon was yellow and it stayed that way for the 65 mile ride home. Temps were in the 70s. Sometimes I wonder how much testing Energica did with this system before making the decision to put it on the market.
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Interesting, thanks Crissa!
On reading the Visordown interview quotes, however, I'm not quite as optimistic as the video presenter; the context seemed to quite general, and "around the corner" could well mean "eventually, in a year or two, with upgraded batteries", not "in current bikes, with the next firmware update".
IIRC, Energica hasn't upped the rate they reduced for all bikes during the last year.
Also, that 15% to 80% could be relevant for the smaller packs only, not the 21kWh ones.
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Well, she said we didn't know.
But if they can software limit it, they can also raise the software limit.
I would expect it the next battery pack, personally.
-Crissa
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Charging at >1C is no problem. The technology exists and we have packs that can stand it.
The critical part is clearly cooling the battery.
If I look at my Zero SR/F which is clearly heating up when charging at 6 kW only, I can imagine that 12 kW is already a problem on warmer days.
So, Energica must (already now) manage almost 2x the charge speed and somehow manage to get rid of the excess heat. That needs active cooling, obviously.
But 15 min. to 85 % (assuming this means 5-85 %, so 80 % net charging at the current battery size of ~18 kWh net) this means 14,4 kWh in 15 min, so 57,6 kW charge speed.
This is around 3 C and more than twice as fast as the current Energicas are and almost 5 times as fast as the Zero is.
Again: I doubt that cell chemistry is the issue here. I'm quite sure that cooling the pack is.
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Well, she said we didn't know.
But if they can software limit it, they can also raise the software limit.
I would expect it the next battery pack, personally.
-Crissa
That makes sense to me.
Charging at >1C is no problem. The technology exists and we have packs that can stand it.
The critical part is clearly cooling the battery.
If I look at my Zero SR/F which is clearly heating up when charging at 6 kW only, I can imagine that 12 kW is already a problem on warmer days.
So, Energica must (already now) manage almost 2x the charge speed and somehow manage to get rid of the excess heat. That needs active cooling, obviously.
But 15 min. to 85 % (assuming this means 5-85 %, so 80 % net charging at the current battery size of ~18 kWh net) this means 14,4 kWh in 15 min, so 57,6 kW charge speed.
This is around 3 C and more than twice as fast as the current Energicas are and almost 5 times as fast as the Zero is.
Again: I doubt that cell chemistry is the issue here. I'm quite sure that cooling the pack is.
Again, makes sense.
Lots of places where ambient temps regularly exceed 35°C/95°F (our entire summer is like that, with multiple riding days of 40°C+ / 107°F+ weather -- not much fun adding a couple of hours to a desert trip for charging sessions, with no A/C .
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Is this not solvable with full liquid cooling with radiator and fan setup, a la ICE?
Cas :)
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Is this not solvable with full liquid cooling with radiator and fan setup, a la ICE?
Sure, but it'll reduce battery capacity (the added cooling channels take up space) and makes a heavy bike even heavier.
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I don't think there's any way around it though. Faster charging trumps larger capacity I think.
Cas :)
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I don't think there's any way around it though. Faster charging trumps larger capacity I think.
This!
Yes, we (still) need bigger batteries because I do think that 150-200 km at highway speed (130 km/h) should be easily possible in the future. And even the Energica's 21,5 kWh pack is hard pressed to reach that without draining the battery to the very limit unless conditions are perfect.
But, apart from this I think that we will follow what the car industry is doing for quite some time already: Favor high charge speed instead of growing battery capacity ad infinitum.
While the jump from the 28 kWh of my IONIQ to the 64 kWh of the Kona was quite a leap forward, the next upgrade to the Model 3 with 75 (or nowadays 82 kWh) does not change much in regards to how I drive. The range is plenty and I usually need a stop much earlier than my car.
Eventually we will reach that state with bikes as well. It feels like we are trailing the cars by about 4-5 years or so.
And looking at my car which reaches a peak charging speed of 250 kW and an average charge speed of ~125 kW (0-80 %) that means we already have charging speeds of 1,7 (avg) to 3,4 C (peak) for our cars. And I can sustainably reach that, even in hot weather.
So, if we manage to squeeze about 20 kWh of net capacity (needed for 150-200 km of highway range) into a bike then this would mean we should reach a charging speed of 34-68 kW with today's cars technology. Well, the Model 3 is on the market for 3 years already.
Given the 4-5 years delay that I assume between cars and bikes, we could expect to see bikes like this appear in the market in 2022 or 2023. Not so far away as it seems.
Question is: Do they manage to squeeze the car's technology into the form factor and weight limitation a bike has?
I guess: It should be possible. and considering that the current battery pack from Zero (14,4 kWh) is essentially 3 years old already, one could assume that the next leap forward is to be expected quite soon.
And Energica will not stop and watch either. Their CCS capable packs are not too new either (even though the 21,5 kWh pack is). So, an upgrade to the achievable charging speed with a very moderate update to the capacity is not completly unrealistic here.
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When I talk to someone about my Zero who does not own an electric vehicle they never ask about charging speed. All they ever ask about is battery range. My feeling is that if a manufacturer's goal is to sell EVs to the ICE-owning public, they need to continue to develop vehicles with greater ranges. Fast charging is only a concern for people who already own an EV and use it for traveling relatively long distances. ???
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I don't think it'll be too long from now until battery cells have lower internal resistance where they can charge at 2C without overheating as long as the ambient temperature's not too hot.
I agree about the importance of fast charging over capacity - especially as electric cars are pushing 300 miles of range. The E-GMP platform Hyundai/Kia have promise some amazing charging speeds! When I'm supercharging my Model 3 for long distance traveling, I prioritize frequent stops so I can ride that 200kW+ charging speed. Love the V3 superchargers.
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I don't think there's any way around it though. Faster charging trumps larger capacity I think.
Cas :)
More charge stations is what trumps all. Even slow charging is fine as long as one can charge every time they stop no matter where it is. Charge all night and then every stop if even for only a few minutes.
There's little advantage to double the range when it takes twice as long to charge, if there are enough places to charge.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Well.... all of the above. Everybody who doesn't want an EV uses one or more of the above reasons as to why their use-case is a problem for them, and they are usually right. I bought an EV knowing that there is a percentage of my current use that it just can't realistically do, which is essentially the compromise I had to make.
Cas :)
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The good news is it's moving in the right direction.
I'm always in camp range. If more EV riders were in a charge station desert like I am they wouldn't care about charge speed either.
Most of you all aren't so I get that it works for you.
Really both factors go hand in hand as higher capacity need faster charging just to keep it at the same current charge stop times.
As some have mentioned before, the industry needs to quote miles or kilometers per minute for their battery to station charge rate to get people used to thinking in the way of "how long do I need to stay here to get where I'm going". Instead of the current gas station thinking of "fill it all the way up and go".
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That's why I bought a Tesla as my first EV, it was the safest choice by far. Owning an electric motorcycle is a struggle at times, especially when I want to go on longer rides to the mountains with my friends. It can be done, I just have to show up a half an hour early, and charge up at a DCFC station since thankfully there's one in Ellijay. But there's plenty of other spots where I'm simply unable to ride at the moment.
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Sklith, I can't remember who all on here is in GA.
I saw an Esse Esse 9 for sale on CT up in the Elijay area. He was selling it when it hit 600 miles and ready for it's first service.
How has your Energica Ego ownership gone so far with no dealer in GA? Do you use the FL or NC dealers if you need something?
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NEW2elec, I haven't had to have anything done to my bike outside the 600 mile service which Energica was fine with sending the supplies to my mechanic in Marietta. I know the company's looking to establish a base here but nothing concrete yet.
If there's something major or a firmware update that I have to have done, I'll load my bike up and take it to either Orlando or Charlotte. That's essentially what I did to buy it so it's ok to go on a 6ish hour drive once in a blue moon. In fact, I love road trips. Maybe next time I'll go down to panama city, and have a good time riding my bike by the beach.
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That's why I bought a Tesla as my first EV, it was the safest choice by far. Owning an electric motorcycle is a struggle at times, especially when I want to go on longer rides to the mountains with my friends. It can be done, I just have to show up a half an hour early, and charge up at a DCFC station since thankfully there's one in Ellijay. But there's plenty of other spots where I'm simply unable to ride at the moment.
Yeah, Tesla has both, the longest ranges and the best charging network. But they piss me off along with anybody has fast charge stations without a 240 VAC outlet as well as J-1772 because that is what every EV can use. All these fast chargers probably all have 240 VAC very close by, yet it is not available.
Places such as Lake Topaz (Tesla Superchargers only, right next to a restaurant and gas station where there is little doubt they have 240 VAC nearby) and Bridgeport, CA (CCS fast charging only, no J-1772, no 240 VAC outlet).
IMO, there should be a law that if they provide DCFC, they also need to provide 240 VAC in one way or another., at least where possible, which I assume is everywhere that they have DCFC.
The USA has a long ways to go, but it is improving.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Thanks, maybe WOW or Blue Moon will pick them up.
That's one of the things that would be a deal breaker for my Damon reservation if they don't get enough interest to have a service agreement in GA.
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Superchargers do have 240 in them, we just can't access it. One connector to rule them all is great as long as you have access to the software that talks to it.
I think charging speed beats range for motorcycles. Because we have the vast majority of trips already covered in range. After an hour, you should get your butt off the seat and stretch.
-Crissa
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Thanks, maybe WOW or Blue Moon will pick them up.
That's one of the things that would be a deal breaker for my Damon reservation if they don't get enough interest to have a service agreement in GA.
I'm good friends with everyone at WOW for 15 years now, and my mechanic Craig works there. There's no way they're going to go with Energica any time soon since they feel like it might hurt their relationship they have with Zero. It's a shame.
Superchargers do have 240 in them, we just can't access it.
This isn't true at all. The superchargers are DC only.
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This isn't true at all. The superchargers are DC only.
I have never heard of a DC powerline, have you?
The norm is AC into a charger and DC out. That is what rectifiers do.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Superchargers do have 240 in them, we just can't access it.
As I mentioned before, I just want a simple 240 VAC outlet, no software BS, no pilot signals, etc. No limitations. I have used such for all four of my EVs and up to 8KW. All the BS in a J-1772 is unnecessary, IMO. Even my Tesla came with a 240 VAC plug adapter for a 14-50R. Who cannot use a 14-50R?? J-1772 is 2nd best as all EVs can use it also, but usually with a 6.6 KW limitation that a 14-50R outlet doesn't have. At least none that I have seen. 240 VAC times 50 amps=12,000 watts. I have yet to see a J1772 that can do 12KW (but old Tesla Wall Connectors can do even more than 12KW, 16 KW are common on the road). IMO, J-1772 is stupid standard with too much unnecessary BS, but it is MUCH better than nothing and I would like to see more of them, but i prefer a simple 240 VAC outlet, especially for my SR.
Notice this outlet here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/114456) I have charged all my bikes there and others have charged their Teslas (click "view more"). The next time I go there on my SR, I will be charging at 8KW.
The voltage of most transmission lines in the USA is 13,800 VAC . This voltage is then lowered to 480 volts for industrial use and 240 volts for commercial and residential customers. Then the transformer by your house gives you 240 VAC and the center tap (neutral) gives you 120 VAC.
Do you know for a fact that DC fast chargers have 240 VAC inside them?
Perhaps only 480 VAC RMS which can easily be converted to well above the 480 VDC required after any voltage losses as that is around 680 VAC peak (480 times 1.414=678 volts peak).
But even if they do NOT have 240 VAC inside them, I assume such will be close by, as most DC fast chargers are close to business that normally do have 240 VAC--just as do our homes.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Sklith,
TPS in Raleigh sells both Zero and Energica. Have never heard them mention anything about Zero not liking it that they sell Energica's and having any issues getting support from Zero because they sell Energica's. I think your Zero dealer is just screwing themselves out of business since 90% of the Energica's that TPS sells are to riders who don't live in the Raleigh area.
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ultrarnr, I agree with you completely but ultimately it's up to them to decide what to do with their business. If they don't want to be an Energica dealer in GA, hopefully someone else will soon.
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Superchargers do have 240 in them, we just can't access it.
This isn't true at all. The superchargers are DC only.
No. They have 240 in them for powering the cars in standby mode.
-Crissa
...And I'm not going to argue with Don and his 'but dumb outlets' idea. The dumb outlets don't do anything that J1772 doesn't do.
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Getting into this late, but back on topic. I just read the Visordown interview and clearly Giampiero is just talking about EVs as a whole and the technical nature of fast charging. Micah over at Electrek has twisted this into something it's not. Again. And everyone else is running with his made up headline.
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I have never heard of a DC powerline, have you?
Read about the Pacific DC Intertie. It's not relevant here, but it sure is interesting.
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No. They have 240 in them for powering the cars in standby mode.
Got any documentation to back this claim up? 'Cause I've got TelsaMate logs querying Tesla's API pulling 1kW @ 405V with 100% SoC from a Supercharging session I did recently.
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I have never heard of a DC powerline, have you?
Read about the Pacific DC Intertie. It's not relevant here, but it sure is interesting.
First I heard of such. I read about it here. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie)
I would think the losses of the skin effect at 60 hz would be less troublesome than converting DC to AC to make needed changes, but technology changes faster these days faster than I can keep up with. It don't mention the disadvantages and how they convert it back to AC for household and business use.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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ultrarnr, I agree with you completely but ultimately it's up to them to decide what to do with their business. If they don't want to be an Energica dealer in GA, hopefully someone else will soon.
There is probably a long waiting list for Energica dealers.
My understanding is by their contracts with shops Energica has to supply their old shops first before any other new shops. They do not make enough bikes to supply any new shops.
Hopefully, they become a much larger company and get a larger factory to make more bikes.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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...And I'm not going to argue with Don and his 'but dumb outlets' idea. The dumb outlets don't do anything that J1772 doesn't do.
That is because you know you will lose. Show me a 12KW J-1772 station anywhere in the USA--just one. I can show you several 12KW 14-50R's even in my own houses. Even at 80% continuous duty that is 9,600 watts, more power than ANY j-1772 I have seen.
My 8KW chargers on my SR will trip most J-1772's. But I don't have to worry about such with a 240 VAC outlet.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I've done 2 cross country road trips with my family in Teslas, and I've charged via 14-50 outlets at 2 hotels so far. One of which came in clutch which is Quality Inn 1902 21st Ave. Scottsbluff NE. The reason is it was the only way I could charge to cut from the I-80 Supercharger route to the I-90 one since we had changed our plans and no longer wanted to visit Colorado during our trip.
In Europe, they essentially don't have cables at EVSEs, you have to bring your own cable. Should be this way here too since it's cheaper to install a station without a cable.
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RIP another thread going down the rabbit hole of discussing the weird electrical system in the US...
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...And I'm not going to argue with Don and his 'but dumb outlets' idea. The dumb outlets don't do anything that J1772 doesn't do.
That is because you know you will lose. Show me a 12KW J-1772 station anywhere in the USA--just one. I can...
...Go on and on at length, never once wondering why someone might not install a public charger at that level even though they totally exist.
Most outlets in your house are probably 15a, too, that doesn't mean that 50a outlets don't exist.
-Crissa
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In Europe, they essentially don't have cables at EVSEs, you have to bring your own cable. Should be this way here too since it's cheaper to install a station without a cable.
Yep, and I carry such cables with me anyway. All four of my EVs can charge from a 14-50R. At the same or more power than a J-1772.
I didn't realize that Europe EV AC charging was mostly from a simple outlet. IMO, the way I would p[refer it here, but I can see why on some motorcycles they wouldn't want to have to carry cables. Such as the LW, which as AFAIK, has no luggage available. But it doesn't even count since its AC charging is less is around 1.4KW, which is mostly useless other than for home charging overnight. But it is also nice for charge tanks and such. But even them I would carry a cable for an outlet. I like to leave home knowing I can charge from anything possible.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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...Show me a 12KW J-1772 station anywhere in the USA--just one...
Don, you forget I showed you the 70A Eaton J1772 station at Diamond Peak ski resort? Twice.
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Don, you forget I showed you the 70A Eaton J1772 station at Diamond Peak ski resort? Twice.
That was 70 amps? 16.8 KW? Yeah, I forgot all about that one. I wonder why they no longer use those.
BTW, I only remember one time seeing those and I forgot all about them. That was before I was used to taking long trips on electric bikes and had no way to use that type of power. When was the other time? The first time was my first ride from here in Auburn to Reno, with you.
I assume the older AC charge stations had more power because DC Fast charging was rare back in those days. I also noticed Tesla AC charging is much less these days., maxed at 12KW, AFAIK. Yet some of the Tesla Destination stations on the road are 16KW.
I will take a ride back out there to Diamond Peak one of these days soon for another look!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Plugshare says it is used at 48 amps (https://www.plugshare.com/location/44582), same as I charge my Tesla with at home, 11,520 watts. But that is as good as a 14-50R, so I stand corrected on that issue.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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In Europe, they essentially don't have cables at EVSEs, you have to bring your own cable. Should be this way here too since it's cheaper to install a station without a cable.
Yep, and I carry such cables with me anyway. All four of my EVs can charge from a 14-50R. At the same or more power than a J-1772.
I didn't realize that Europe EV AC charging was mostly from a simple outlet. IMO, the way I would p[refer it here, but I can see why on some motorcycles they wouldn't want to have to carry cables.
Huh? No, most public EV chargers in Europe are 3-phase, supplying 22kW via the IEC 62196 Type 2 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector) EV socket, a.k.a. Mennekes .
There are few models that can make use of that (most common is the Renault Zoe, the best-selling EV in Europe many years which while a low-end car has always had 22kW support, and older versions even had 43kW AC), but the majority of current cars can do 11kW AC 3-phase, standard or at least as an option.
Home EV chargers in Europe are typically 11kW 3-phase, using the same socket, although 22kW EVSE units are also available, and cost <US$1000. Installing the latter sometimes requires enlarging the electric utility's connection if you want to charge a car at that rate while still providing enough wattage for the rest of the household load.
There are people here who install 22kW chargers at home to be able to charge two cars @ 11kW each.
3-phase charging is common, simply because most residences & commercial buildings have a 3-phase panel. Here 3x25A & 3x40A (@230V) are most common.
The UK is the exception, with 3-phase residence feeds being rare.
Charging using a simple (1-phase household) AC outlet, 16A @ 230V or 10A @ 230V, depending on specific outlet & country, isn't common.
People do use granny cables to charge cars, but for the granny scenario only.
The fact that Zero uses household sockets as their standard charging solution is definitely hurting them in Europe.
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The fact that Zero uses household sockets as their standard charging solution is definitely hurting them in Europe.
When the bikes that use that as the standard were released, there wasn't the infrastructure there is now. Even so, it's still cheaper/smaller and you can get an adapter to plug into an EVSE if not an actual bigger charger like the Charge Tank.
It hurts them to be lighter and cheaper? Do any of the other low-end bikes even use the EVSE infrastructure?
-Crissa
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Don, you forget I showed you the 70A Eaton J1772 station at Diamond Peak ski resort? Twice.
And today, I used it at 8KW, no need for two J-adapters.
There is a total of four such stations out there, two at the nearby Golf Course. I check-in to both on Plugshare, but the Golf Course was just for the check-in. I only ran the OBC at the golf course, as I just near fully charged at Diamond Peak.
All four ChargePoints are 70 amp output. All are the exact same type. That is the only place I have ever seen those. We need more like that! Good for above 16KW per station, assuming it runs on 240 VAC. That sure would make the ChargeTank useful on a premium Zero, charge at 12KW with ease.
BTW, the golf course is closer to the main roads and free for anybody to use.
Here is the label:
-Don- Reno, NV