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[gregj]

This is a copy of a post I put on an electric motorcycle facebook page about my views on what we need to get people buying and riding emotorcycles. Now I should point out that I am in Australia so some of the overall desirable traits may be a bit parochial . Across Australia the city usually has limits of 40/50/ nd mostly 60kph. Highway and , importantly motorway speeds are uaually 80/100/ and occasionally 110kph.

SUPERCOMMUTER (not superbike)

Ok here is a question for everyone. I know the attention is grabbed by superbikes that go 200kph+ and innercity commuters that struggle to 60 or 80kph, but where are the emotorcycles that actually make sense to buy. That is a vehicle that has a 100/200km range ( at speed) and a max of 110kph for highway travel TO the city.

If you live just outside town OR travel to work on a motorway, an emotorcycle that can't do the Mway speed limit (100/110kph) is dangerous and just plain rude to other traffic. I have been searching for such a simple vehicle for a while. Getting a homemade vehicle registered on the road in Queensland ( Australia) is EXTREMELY difficult or I would build my own. (There is a very nice R6 running chassis for sale nearby). This is the sort of vehicle that could convince the powers that be, that giving incentives to buy and register electric movers is a good thing. They do not want slow vehicles on highways and motorways creating accidents.

Isn't it time that at least some manufacturers stopped catering to the speed freaks, that turn off the Govt regulators, or try to weasel out of having to pay registration, by pretending to be a bicycle.

An emotorcycle that has a 10kW motor, handles well, stops well ( you don't need massive twin discs on the front of a 110kph bike), is lightweight and costs the equivalent of a good 125-250cc commuter will sell. Simple mains plug in, no real need for superfast charging. Properly faired so you aren't pushing air and wasting power for no real need ( leave the fake "cafe racer" to the posers or ICE motors).

And on that note , regeneration, if you are goping to put it on,  from the FRONT wheel where most of your braking should be done.

Anyone who has an eye on such a bike , please let me know. Then I just have to hope we can get it to Australia...

PS This FB post created a storm of posts from people of the same view... And lots of added constructive comments.

PPS The Vogue ER10 is the first bike I found that fits the criteria. No current planned Australian distributor for the brand though.

[togo]

Regenerative braking is an intrinsic function of a quality a/c drivertrain, as implemented to date, not a separate system to be added.

There was a report of a distinct front wheel kinetic energy recovery system (KERS) on a racing prototype, but I don't think it went anywhere.  I don't think it makes any sense given your cost constraints.

Otherwise, I think you are spot on, and I think motorcycle manufacturers should follow your lead.

Closest I can think of right now would be Zero FXS or S or BMW C-Evolution.  But you're probably looking for something out of Asia to meet your cost constraints. Mahindra, maybe?

[TheRan]

The major thing holding people back from riding an electric bike (other than hating on it just because it's electric) is price, the current offerings can satisfy the needs of most riders (at least for daily commuting). The solution to this issue is time. The technology will get cheaper, production numbers will increase, and there will be plenty of used options available.

Concerning front wheel regen, I don't know how that would work without having a motor on there. An AWD bike would be really cool but I don't know what the power limit is for hub motors (I think I've only seen up to about 10kW) and that's a lot of unsprung weight.

[Crissa]

There are some pretty beefy hub motors out there now, but they are not cheap.

The description of a bike that goes 110kph easily and goes 200km is exactly a Zero.  Unfortunately, unless you can find a used one like my spouse did, it'll be $11k usd.

The Chinese made bikes are getting there, they just aren't, yet.  It is kind of funny that the Class 2 and 3 bicycles are coming in at about the same price point as the weak spot NIU style electrics.

-Crissa

[gregj]

Hub motors are OK but I think to be able to use any existing motorcycle stuff for the time being a separate motor in frame is a better option.  My big grip about hubmotors is actually that it limits the wheels you can use ( yes there are other problems). Using std wheels opens up a much cheaper range of wheels and tyres. That plus , if you damage a wheel it will be much more expensive to replace the whole unit. Mid drive motor also opens up the possibility of regearing motor to wheel is the need arises. More flexible while we are developing emotorcycles.
The front regen does not have to be a motor only a generator/alternator. That allows it to be switched in and have little/no drag when not in use as a brake. It also allows quite a braking load when it is used. That is a fair amount of work used when braking.
No Zeros in Australia any longer and too expensive for what you get. Really more in the performance line than supecommuter. I am pretty sure it will be the Chinese or the Indians that end up being the new emotorcycle giants. Like the Japanese did in the 50/60's. Remember the BMW F800R and the Husky TR650 ( sadly missed) were made in China. I had both and wouldn't complain about the manufacture at all.
Santa CRuz carbon frames are made in China ( for quite a while) and I can attest that they are EXTREMELY strong and reliable.
China makes a lot of crap, but they make a lot of VERY good stuff, as well. There is a lot of serious scientific and engineering expertise in China AND India. Mahindra was mentioned and Tata is no slouch as well ( needs to do some catching up).

Also note that China has developed a new manufacture method for carbon fibre that is a fraction of the cost of everywhere else ( Aussie scientists have also made a leap recently). That also applies to graphene ( batteries AND components). That could bring some serious tech revolutions to the Emotorcycle scene.

[Crissa]

There are Zeros in Australia.  Just because Zero doesn't market them doesn't mean the ones that sold evaporated.

There is certainly something that the used market there is asking 2x the price as they have in the US.  If Zero couldn't make money selling them, seems more a problem with the regulatory environment.

-Crissa

[TheRan]

An alternator/generator is just a motor running in reverse. That's how the regen currently works on the rear wheel, using the motor as a generator.

[Richard230]

An alternator/generator is just a motor running in reverse. That's how the regen currently works on the rear wheel, using the motor as a generator.

That reminds me that my 1963 Yamaha YD3 used its generator, which was mounted on the end of the crankshaft with no reduction gearing, also as a starter motor.  It worked quite well, but no doubt required a big push from the battery when used to start the bike.  However, the fact that it was a low-compression two-stroke likely helped turning the engine over.  I am not sure that Yamaha used that design much after that model.   

[princec]

Front wheel regen: probably a bad idea, given that when we use our front brakes, we are trying to stop properly quickly (too fast for the energy to be dumped into current battery tech), and we also want far, far more finesse and feel at the front than a car needs. On top of that, greatly increasing unsprung weight on the front wheel is the opposite of sensible.

Rear wheel regen is just perfect - already attached to the motor, suits a style of riding that's actually geared towards efficiency and economy.

In the medium term what you're looking for is a Zero SR but costing half as much.

Cas

[NervEasy]

Front wheel regen is very much possible with eddy current brakes. These brakes are used for example in rollercoasters that use an electric launch system. These brakes regenerate a lot of kinetic energy when braking the coaster train that is then used in the next launch. They are hugely powerfull, are failsafe and even , they have no rubbing parts. So no need to replace pads, ever. Also integration with abs is easier (no abs pump with moving parts needed).

The reason they are not being used in todays ev’s / bikes I think is because the current solution to braking is a very cost effective and proven solution.

Rethinking brakes is not easy or cheap...

[Crissa]

Rethinking brakes is not easy or cheap...

This is so true.

Also, current regulations would prevent you from having only one or the other, so this would be straight up a cost increase.  Which is a problem for that bottom line the original poster is aiming for.

I sorta wonder how the Taycan is doing their regen/braking.  It might be they're just doing resistance dumping, which is less great, but does provide more consistent braking power when the battery can't respond to the pulse from regen.

-Crissa

[TheRan]

Rethinking brakes is not easy or cheap...

This is so true.

Also, current regulations would prevent you from having only one or the other, so this would be straight up a cost increase.  Which is a problem for that bottom line the original poster is aiming for.

I sorta wonder how the Taycan is doing their regen/braking.  It might be they're just doing resistance dumping, which is less great, but does provide more consistent braking power when the battery can't respond to the pulse from regen.

-Crissa

This guy explains how Porsche does it, compared to Tesla. He has a ton of other great videos too.

[Crissa]

Oh!  Yes, I was meaning to watch his vid on it.

The Taycan also has an eco mode and does much better than its EPA rating.  Electrics are often slippery there, having wide efficiency zones.

-Crissa

...Mmm, his answer is incomplete.  He only says they intend for it to be independent, but they don't say how they're doing it.  Part is that they always leave space in the battery, and the battery is high voltage (which if limited to an amperage like others, it's got a huge wattage, which is what you want) but not how they're managing the temperature independence.  Like I said, there's ways to do this via having resistor dumps, higher capacitance in the system, or even a more aggressive cooling system on the battery...

[gregj]

My worry about greater cooling, is that is one area where we need to do better. If we are getting heat, we are wasting power. You won't stop heat generation entirely, but it's a sign you are chucking away capacity. There is an obvious path to capacity/usage efficiency. And no, I don't have an answer...



Above someone stated that you use you brakes for stopping quickly. Actually , unless you are racing, you do the vast majority of you braking at way below max. And I suspect yopu would have a front brake activated regen , rather than an entirely regen brake. I do take your point that it has a good position in the motor ( centre motor design. I am not a fan of rear hub motors, primarily because of the unsprung weight on something where that weight is a biggish proportion of the sprung weight). Using a KERS system, like Kawasaki motoGP bike did and F1 cars, that use a supercap to capture and release the regen power. Much more efficient than putting it back in the batteries.

[togo]

> Above someone stated that you use you brakes for stopping quickly...

This should be rare if you are riding for range; best to ride like you have only light braking power.  Just a touch of the right brake lever to invoke your Zero's "100%" 10% maximum regen that feels light engine braking, except for emergencies.  Spending momentum on friction wastes energy and wears brake pads.  You don't notice it as much on an internal combustion motorcycle with spends its high density dino-fuel even when sitting at a stoplight.