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[gregj]

I keep forgetting the voltage issue Aus vs US.
Our std voltage is 240 , std socket current of 10amp and very common single phase 240v/15 amp. Even a std socket is comfortably capable of 2.4Kw ( and the big pin of 3.6kW).
The most sensible charger would use  std 240V/15amp AC cable and a std plug/socket and convert onboard the vehicle. On a motorcycle that may be a bit heavy, but possible.
 Perhaps commercial stations would use 3phase 415V/20amp (8.3kW). Rather than a full recharge give a top up. That would extend the vehicle range.
The problem with using a std plug/ socket on a vehicle is the exposed live pins on the male side. So more protective design is probably necessary.
The trouble with lower voltage vehicles is, the lower the voltage the higher the current. The higher the current, the bigger and heavier everything has to be. DC will always have a possibility of destructive arching ( ac arching is less erosive).
Lower voltage does not necessarily equal smaller and cheaper. A carbon/zinc or lead acid battery is much bigger and heavier than the Li-ion or LiFePO4 battery.  The cell Voltage is  about 3times as high for both and capacity vastly higher. Even std 12v batteries for automotive , the LiFePO4 batteries are only about twice the price for a proper equivalent which is a fraction of the weight.
 These techs are not the final tech we will be seeing. I strongly suspect for battery config new tech that will have higher cell voltages.  The problem with that approach is there is a limited electrochemical potential in the universe. We are getting to the limits now. The answer is likely to be something more generative. Possibly fuel cell, but more likely something we haven't though of yet and the seeds are sitting in someones pure physical chemistry research
 paper somewhere...

[Crissa]

On a motorcycle that's under five pounds.  That's what Zero does; they have an onboard swithing power supply (accepts 110-125 and 220-250) just like any major electronics device now, and then runs at 1400 watts.

LFPO batteries are 2x larger than Li-Ma-Ni. (Currently. There's some experimental that have been announced in the last couple months that are bringing it in line with the batteries we currently use in our bikes.  That would be a huge gain.)

Cell voltage is still pretty low - but the more cells you have is the faster you can charge or discharge, and you can build them up for higher voltages.  The Tesla has tiny cells which is why it's so efficient while the Taycan has its natural bus at 800v.  Neither are acceptable (currently) for motorcycles because of cost and safety.

It doesn't matter what the final tech is:  We still need to get outlets out where our vehicles can use them.  That's the hard part.

-Crissa

[Fran K]

The Zero FX charger is rated at 650 watts.  See their website.  Appears the same for the accessory one as well.

[Crissa]

The Zero FX charger is rated at 650 watts.  See their website.  Appears the same for the accessory one as well.

The X platform charger is smaller than the S platform charger.  But it's also a smaller bike with a shorter range designed for slower sustained speeds. The accessory charger is for if you want to increase the charging.

See their website, I guess.

-Crissa

[NEW2elec]

Well Korea may have just solved my requirement #1

Sorry dead link.

[Crissa]

Well Korea may have just solved my requirement #1

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/ev-battery-breakthrough-twice-range-220000749.html

Yahoo didn't like that URL, alas.

-Crissa

[NEW2elec]

Well it sure did get pulled quick "they" must not want us to know about it. 

Luckily Rajamanickam Antonimuthu posted a video about it so the truth can get out there.

[Crissa]

Okay.

Let's not derail the thread with novel batteries, though.  They can have their own thread.

-Crissa

[NEW2elec]

Look all kidding aside since who knows if that idea will ever be anything.  The battery technology is going to improve so rapidly I'm saying it's foolish to try to make a charging standard now that will be completely obsolete in a few more years.  Or worse hold back battery improvements because they don't work with thousands of charging stations that people have invested so much money in.

First get great dense batteries and that can charge super fast, then match the charging to them.   The ones we have now just aren't good enough.

[TheRan]

Don't all batteries charge in pretty much the same way, with just the voltage and current used varying? I would think current charging stations would have the ability, or be able to with minimal modification (perhaps just software), to charge a new type of battery chemistry. Of course if the new battery is able to charge beyond the limits of current chargers then that's not great, but it wouldn't make the chargers obsolete.

[Crissa]

No, their input is pretty much the same.  The input voltage varies by the array size and tha amperage is more impulse level.

It's not foolish to make a charging standard now, because without charging standards there will never be demand for more powerful batteries.  Similarly, without points to install chargers, there will never be widespread adoption of EVs.

And the outlet that we plug chargers into hasn't changed in fifty or so years.  Waiting is just denying the technology we have, a foothold.

The flip-phones of yore did not stop the adoption of the touch-screens we have today.  Nicads didn't stop the adoption of NIMHs, which didn't stop the adoption of Li-ion technology.  A nicad charger works pretty much the same as a trickle charger for a li-ion charger and both plug into the same wall outlet.

The same will apply to cars.  Waiting does us no favors.

-Crissa

[gregj]

Please note that at the outset I did not say that establishing charging stations now was a silly idea. What I said was the reason "I" wouldn't do it.

Note battery charging is not the same for even the same chemistry batteries that have different physical construction  , if you want optimium battery life and charge. Some for reason fo thermal consideration some for physical chem reasons, etc. ( Think the charge profiles for wet cell vs gel cell charge profiles).
LiFePO4 batteries have a VERY finiky charge profile as I found with my Shorai batteries for my motorcycle, where the charger THEY supply actually kills the batteries and I didn't get any life out of them until I change to a new aftermarket specific LiFePO4 charger.
Of course this is solved by having the charger itself onboard and standardize the outside to vehicle interface. That is directly at odds with how all modern business works. They want an interface that they control and users/suppliers have to buy from them. The ONLY way to get around that is for government to mandate the interface. Good luck with that in the US...

[Crissa]

Battery charging is not vastly different for the outlet at the wall.  And since EVs are banks of batteries, the difference is even less for the charger.  You have an energy source and you need to push it into the pack.

If you think not doing it now isn't worth it - it will never be worth it.  There will always be something on the horizon different and better.  And if we don't run the wires now, EVs will never catch on.  That's why all new housing in California has to have EV infrastructure.

-Crissa

[TheRan]

How does that profile vary though? Isn't it all just varying the current and voltage, to different levels at different rates? It seems that stuff like that could be altered in software or with minor hardware modifications. All those DC chargers already out there can vary their voltage and current, they need to be able to, and it's the vehicle that tells it what to do because they already use different types of batteries.

[Crissa]

Pretty much, TheRan.

Although only a few charge at 800v (like the Taycan does) and new Teslas run at 400v.  They still connect to the mains at 480v or so, so that won't change.  Chargers will wear out - they have electronics which are heating and cooling, cables which are being flexed, etc.  Waiting until the next generation to install more is silly.

Especially since 800v charging is just not something motorcycles or other smaller vehicles will be doing.  There's a practical limitation to smaller, cheaper vehicles; and holding off only makes them more expensive and less useful.  Especially as they age.  Used Leaf prices have already crashed and Bolt priced dipped very low at the end of last year.  If we don't have enough small charge points to take up the slack, these cars will be seen as a failure.

And worse, if they're seen as a failure, then there won't be any investment to charge electric bikes, motorcycles, or other smaller EVs.  If the only EVs to succeed are things like the Tesla and the Taycan, that means small-scale inexpensive EVs won't have a place to charge.  And they won't be bought or invested in.

-Crissa