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[Crissa]

The charger will include a big battery for when the sun shines and the wind blows.

What?  No, the vast majority of charge points are just plugged into the grid.

The choice of real estate, what site work is involved and what other electric stuff can be bundled in the contract.  If I interpret your statement as intended.

Around here the wires are overhead.

...The real estate is already there, in the form of 'parking places' which outnumber the square footage and in many case the per unit of housing and sometimes all buildings.

The big cost is getting the capacity from the utility (which isn't cheap to get a drop from wires, overhead or not) and then installing the wiring to plug the charger into.  The charger itself is like a low-end electric stove in both cost and power consumption.  And that won't really change, because our electrical grid is not going to change how they deliver power any time soon.

DC fast charging requires a completely different system of transformers and capacitance to get the specific voltage and impulse required - but there will always be lower voltage devices because they will always be cheaper to build.  So DC charging infrastructure shouldn't negate building out support for 6kw charging.  Even if we get a true DC standard, there will always be cheaper, shorter range vehicles that need it from scoots to motorcycles.

commutes 5 days a week 120km round trip to work

That puts her in the top quarter of commutes in Australia.  abs.gov.au

...which a $10k USD S (bottom of the line) would still do happily with an outlet at each end.  We just need to get the outlets/chargers out where they can be used.

-Crissa

[togo]

> ... There is NO AGREED standard that will stand any test of time. ...

I don't know that that's true.  I think CCS, where the vehicle says max voltage and max amps and essentially opens its battery to the station, has an awful lot of headroom, and I don't see it going away soon.  Right now it's limited to about 1000 volts, with most vehicles being about 1/3 of that, and of course connector pin size limits amps, but volts could go higher.  Right now, 1000 appears to be the limit due to safety regulations (apparently voltages higher than that require a lot more safety measures like how electric company substations are behind chainlink fences, and much more specially trained personnel required, not just professional electricians)

[princec]

CCS looks to be winning here - sensible design, forward thinking.

Cas

[DonTom]

CCS looks to be winning here - sensible design, forward thinking.

Cas

Yep. CCS sure wins around here. And that is what they are putting in at the Wal*Marts. What surprises me is that most Wal*marts have no way to charge a Tesla. Not even for a slow J-1772 charge or Tesla Destination charger. Nothing at all that is compatible with Tesla.

Unless one can find one of these somewhere, as Wal*Marts do have the CHAdeMO.

One Wal*Mart I have seen has a J-1772 charge station, the Wal*Mart in Elk Grove, CA. But Plugshare says it is not working! All the other Wal*Marts I have seen do not even have that. But since the one I saw isn't even working, it doesn't even count. I am not sure if it is newly and slowly going in or being removed. I am not sure if it ever worked or ever will.

I am surprised there are not more J1772 stations as they can charge any car or motorcycle EV, AFAIK. I have used J1772 on all four of my EVs.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Fran K]

The charger will include a big battery for when the sun shines and the wind blows.

What?  No, the vast majority of charge points are just plugged into the grid.

The choice of real estate, what site work is involved and what other electric stuff can be bundled in the contract.  If I interpret your statement as intended.

Around here the wires are overhead.

...The real estate is already there, in the form of 'parking places' which outnumber the square footage and in many case the per unit of housing and sometimes all buildings.

The big cost is getting the capacity from the utility (which isn't cheap to get a drop from wires, overhead or not) and then installing the wiring to plug the charger into.  The charger itself is like a low-end electric stove in both cost and power consumption.  And that won't really change, because our electrical grid is not going to change how they deliver power any time soon.

DC fast charging requires a completely different system of transformers and capacitance to get the specific voltage and impulse required - but there will always be lower voltage devices because they will always be cheaper to build.  So DC charging infrastructure shouldn't negate building out support for 6kw charging.  Even if we get a true DC standard, there will always be cheaper, shorter range vehicles that need it from scoots to motorcycles.



-Crissa

I will try again

The title here is rethinking the charge.  You stated wiring to the box more than charger.  You stated this will not change or close to that.

Pertaining to this will not change was the part about chargers having batteries.  I see in videos on line what appear to be convience stores in England Or great britian with chargers for vehicles in the parking lot and large transformer type things nearby that are batteries that get charged of the grid and feed the vehicles.  What burned (first) in the electric road racing incident where a bunch of race bikes were lost was the battery to charge the bikes off of, at leas that is what I understand.

Pertaining the cost of wiring exceeding cost of the charger.  I kind of thought you would be referencing the cost of Harley Davidson dealerships getting their two or ccs devices up and running.  I was more looking it in terms of actually buying a piece of property and setting up charging stations to turn a profit.  In order to do this a business plan could be to buy the energy through a timed meter in the off peak.  If nuclear is really the future it will be the opposite of peaker type generation.  I only typed sun shine and wind blow.

Now what is a charger?  The FX accessory charger costs $600 and is not close to maxing out a 15 amp 120volt circuit.  Alta had two choices of charger probably somewhere around half the capacity of an electric clothes dryer socket.  Perhaps $1000.  Digi now was approx $2000.  Charge tank is about $2000 that is a charger and for SRF need premium or else more $.  All these things are more than the cost of socket for such assuming put in contract for new house.  Even if upgrading from 60 amp service to 200 amp or 200 amp to 400 amp should be under the $2000 if  you call the outfit that advertises on cable tv or the neighbor's sister's husbband who recomends some entity which in my case ended up being an outfit with at least two A's at the front of their business name.

I guess you had a type two set up in mind not what I have discussed.  I just went by the town hall for Stafford Springs, or maybe Stafford CT which is the only charger I go by in my travels.  Here are a few pictures, it would appear involves a solar roof to some degree.  The two chargers near the building with conduit coming out of the building I could not figure out how to pull out the cord, the other two, one in use and the other that apparently does not retract.  I imagine this could be a problem if  you find a location on the smart phone but can't pull out the cord.  The pavement has been cut to the roof assembly from the building.  I wonder if it costs more to wire or the actual things I assume you consider a charger or the wiring into the building costs more.  It might all be covered in some of the six or so little fees on the electric bill after supply and transmission.  The towns do lately like to hire 3 part time retired guys instead of one full time guy.  I was just talking to a member of the bike club while not an electrician same general idea part time on call.

There is a portable no grid at all system that pops up as I wander the internet, it has two 6kw stations and a bunch of solar panels.  I would imagine it pops up for lots of folks or perhaps is just advertising and pops up is kind of misleading.

Fran

[Crissa]

I don't understand why CCS chargers are being installed without companion level 2 charging.  Anything smaller than an Energica is never going to have CCS charging at the current standard - it's too high voltage.

So I think any weakness to the idea that CCS is 'the next thing' is that it specifically excludes smaller, cheaper vehicles.  When in fact, DC charging would be the most advantageous to smaller vehicles as it means less charging equipment to have on board!

And Fran K... I don't know what you're going on about.  Stand-alone charging systems have two parts - and the part that is solar/wind/batteries is completely unrelated to the charger plugged into them.  The boxes that are near a Level 2 charger are the same box that you'd need for a house.  The boxes that are near a CCS charger are the same box you'd have for a big commercial building.  And that's the expensive part.  The wires and the supply.

If chargers for cars change - a new CCS for smaller units or new software or whatever.  It'll just plug into the grid like any other appliance does.  It's just we don't have plugs out in parking lots yet.  And we should.

Even a Tesla or a Taycan can use a normal outlet.  It helps them run their battery cooling systems and maintain their batteries and pre-condition for when the driver returns instead of losing miles.  If we had outlets available, we wouldn't be having this range-anxiety argument.

-Crissa

[NEW2elec]

That's what I'm talking about with wasting money.

Do the math and figure out how many miles you get in a car, bikes are too rare in the US I love them but it's the truth, from charging at a 6kw J station.  Now figure how long will someone have to stay there to get say 60 miles worth of power?  Now figure how much a private station owner will have to bill you to make a profit.

It doesn't work as a business.  It's why there are no more pay phones.  There is a better option and it isn't worth keeping the bad option running.

On the other hand if you could get 250 miles in 15 minutes at a converted gas station like you can now, you can bill an owner $20 and they leave and the next guy comes in.  That's $80 an hour and $1280 in a 16 hour day from each spot.  Now you have a business.  Now the masses keep the same old weekly routine and don't go into shock.

[Crissa]

Why does it matter how long they sit there for 60 miles of power?

The median commute is 16 miles.  The median drive is less.

And saying motorcycles don't matter is saying that e-bikes and motorcycles and scoots just will never, ever catch on and that they shouldn't.

-Crissa

PS, also my point stands with that even a Tesla or Taycan can use those outlets.  It's not just miles they're gaining:  It's how many they're not losing.  They're sitting around, active systems as well as passively losing charge.  In extreme weather, this is important.

[NEW2elec]

Wait are you wanting 110V outlets all around or J plugs?
Who is going to pay for all this easy access and power?
Trust me it's got to make dollars to make sense.  See what I did there?     

No one has ever asked me how far I commute so who are "they" getting these numbers from?  All city dwellers I'd guess so it's easier to fill up the survey sheet that way.
I'm about 60 miles a day so 300 miles a week if I don't go anywhere else during the work week.  I work with people who go over 110 miles total everyday.  People in the south still value trees and large tracts of land.

[Crissa]

Surveys are usually conducted through phone or online now.  The Census asks everyone.

And I don't know who's going to pay.  Right now, it's considered an added benefit to a store or dining area, or a commuting space.

You might as well ask 'who's going to pay for roads' or 'who's going to pay for clean air.'

-Crissa

PS I don't care if it's 110 or 220, honestly, though the latter makes more sense.  Like I said, even if J-plugs are phased out, if the wiring to the parking exists, we can put whatever kind of chargers are to be used.  And the more, the better.  Because smaller, shorter range vehicles can use them.

There's an estimated five million parking meters in the US.  How awesome would it be if we had five million J-plugs or 220v outlets?

[NEW2elec]

Ok Crissa, I should remember I can't add the tongue in cheek tone of my voice to what I type.  I did use the smiley face to try to set the tone but I guess it didn't work.

This will be my last post on this since to me it's just a fun little guess the future exercise.

My thoughts (guesses) are as follows.
1.  Evs will need a solid state or similar type batteries.  This should allow for much faster charging and no longer needing to taper charging near the end of the charge cycle because there would no longer be the risk of over voltage gassing and fire.

2.  The electricity supply to your house will cost much much more than it does now.  I hear about areas that charge different amounts based on the time of day.  I feel that will go away and it will be a stepped rate method.  You'll pay a certain rate for your first, say 75 kWh
and then a higher rate for your next 75 kWh and so on. 

3.  The power company WILL make lots of money off people home charging.  They may also mandate vehicle to grid use if you want to charge at home so they get the use of your batteries.

4.  The current gas stations will convert over to charging stations.  They will have the money to pay for the big power units needed for very fast charging and since numbers 2 and 3 will be in place that will be the cheaper way to keep your over all electric consumption down
at your house.  Of course number 1 is needed for this because again for the business to work you have to get people in, get their money, and get them out and get the next guy in.  The faster the better.

[TheRan]

2.  The electricity supply to your house will cost much much more than it does now.  I hear about areas that charge different amounts based on the time of day.  I feel that will go away and it will be a stepped rate method.  You'll pay a certain rate for your first, say 75 kWh
and then a higher rate for your next 75 kWh and so on. 

3.  They may also mandate vehicle to grid use if you want to charge at home so they get the use of your batteries.

I really can't see those happening. They'll already be making more money because people will be consuming more electricity, why would they be justified in making even more on top of that just because it's being used to charge vehicles? They also have no way of knowing what the power is being used for, so not only would it apply to everyone whether they're charging a vehicle or not they also can't demand usage of your battery (if the vehicle is even capable of it).


On a side note, imagine how awesome it would be if all Chademo chargers actually complied with regulations and went down to 50v. I only recently discovered that Zero offered a Chademo adapter like 7 years ago, I looked at all the chargers specs on the site and pretty much every one was capable of 50 to 500v, wondered why Zero gave up on the idea and it turns out a bunch of the chargers near their HQ didn't actually go low enough. Apparently more chargers do now but no idea if it's enough to make it worth while trying again, and I couldn't find any info on a way to check what the lower voltage limit is on particular chargers.

This is probably a dumb question but why can't the voltage just be stepped down, or rather why wouldn't it work in this case?

[NEW2elec]

Ok one more I guess then it's bed time.

So >They'll already be making more money because people will be consuming more electricity, why would they be justified in making even more on top of that just because it's being used to charge vehicles? They also have no way of knowing what the power is being used for, so not only would it apply to everyone whether they're charging a vehicle or not they also can't demand usage of your battery (if the vehicle is even capable of it).

They will bill you more because of supply and demand.  The EVs will just greatly increase the demand.  Most power companies only make about as much power as people use now.  If you add thousands of EVs to a local grid that's already near it's limits they will have to invest in more power generation and staff to run it. 

As for EV to grid again this is maybe 10-15 years in the future that I'm thinking of.  No type of mandate would be off limits.  After a few blackouts the government forces all charging stations to be two way, for your own good. 
Think that's crazy?  Most people got power walls to go with their solar roof panels.  But you couldn't use it to power your house if the power went out because of the working line men's safety.  It was a real danger but people weren't happy they couldn't use them.  That was half the point of it, to be backup power.  I think they can add a switch to allow it now but the control is still theirs. 

Do you want to sell some power?  Ok but you can only sell it to the power company and they pay a small fraction of what they will bill someone else for it.  They will have the control and thus the power.

And it all ends up like this:  LOL  Lets hope I'm wrong.

[Crissa]

The environment can't wait for the perfect battery tech.  We're at the balance point now, and need to jump now.  The more technologies the better.  But smaller, cheaper will always be lower voltage so we'll always need those tap that currently J-plugs run on.

We will have to think about pricing in a new way, EVs or no.  The transmission companies no longer will be able to make the money off of per kilowatt except for things like charging EVs which are being charged not overnight when demand is low.

Regulating net pricing is certainly something we'll have to do.  We'll probably have to invent (and limit) a carrier charge so utilities don't charge rural customers into the ground for being on long runs or go out of business in neighborhoods that are all semi-supplied with their solar roofs.

And some electricity is going to be more expensive.  And that's okay.  We can't push the cost off on people's health like coal has been doing, or damage the atmosphere like we've been doing with unbalanced CO2 emissions.

Per-capita electricity use hasn't risen in California - land of Silicon Valley, mind you - in nearly forty years.

-Crissa

[princec]

Another problem is that converting from high to low voltage involves considerable wastage (in the form of heat.. rather a lot of heat) but really that's maybe not a problem for devices outputting DC. Then there is the small issue that DC is really fucking dangerous and especially so at high voltage. I wouldn't want to go near anything outputting more than 400VDC, doubly so if it was raining.

As for battery tech... expect charging times to be slashed by over 50% within the next 10 years, and capacity to approximately increase by 50% for the same volume and/or weight. But don't get hung up on any specific tech like graphene or solid state - whatever works best will win out. First bike manufacturer to get 30KWh in a bike I can lift off its side gets my money.

Cas