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[reini]

It's like carrying a couple cubes of sodas.  Not easy, but not impossible.

I don't know what that means Let's rephrase: How heavy are the (in capacity) comparable FXS batteries? If I look at https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/#builds, it looks like the (non-modular) 7.2 is 19 kg heavier than the modular 3.6.

Carrying 2 20kg batteries would be quite a workout

[TheRan]

I would guess around 15-20kg. Their scooter batteries are 11kg each but lower voltage and capacity, 65v35Ah and I would guess the RQi is going to be somewhere around 70-100v which would be 45-32Ah per pack (being 6.5kW/h).

[Crissa]

The Modular is heavier when you have the same power worth of batteries in it, tho.

I was comparing it to 24 12oz soda cans 'cause that's a common size to buy them in.

-Crissa

[TheRan]

I really don't get why everyone thinks this is going to be super cheap, just because their scooters are. The components used on those are much cheaper, they use 3kw and low hub motors, and the batteries are smaller. It's probably going to end up costing as much as a 7.2kW/h Zero and it wouldn't even surprise me much if it ended up costing more.

Their top scooter is £3200 for a 3kw hub motor and 60v70Ah. A Super Soco TC Max is £4250 for a 5kw mid motor and 72v45Ah. The RQi will have a slightly larger battery than the TC Max but with a 30kw motor and what looks to be significantly higher quality components across the board as well as much more tech.

[wavelet]

I really don't get why everyone thinks this is going to be super cheap, just because their scooters are. The components used on those are much cheaper, they use 3kw and low hub motors, and the batteries are smaller. It's probably going to end up costing as much as a 7.2kW/h Zero and it wouldn't even surprise me much if it ended up costing more.

Their top scooter is £3200 for a 3kw hub motor and 60v70Ah. A Super Soco TC Max is £4250 for a 5kw mid motor and 72v45Ah. The RQi will have a slightly larger battery than the TC Max but with a 30kw motor and what looks to be significantly higher quality components across the board as well as much more tech.

Niu makes >300K electric two-wheelers per year. That's over 2 orders of magnitude more than the largest e-motorcycle maker (Zero). If they decide that the time's ripe for large scale BEV bike production, they actually have the potential to getting far lower component costs due to economies of scale, and so achieving cheaper end-price BEV bikes. None of the large moto makers seem in any hurry to jump on the bandwagon, probably because they have their existing ICE bike businesses to protect... A company like NIU seems a natural candidate. Ditto for Kymco, since while they're not an EV company currently, a drivetrain-technology turning point  may be the opportinuty for them to get into full-size bikes after being established in scooters/mopeds.

[TheRan]

Their scooters are cheap because they make a shit ton of them and they use low end components, they won't be making anywhere near as many RQi's and the component quality is significantly better. It also won't be using their scooter batteries as two of those would be 4.2kW/h and the RQi is 6.5 or 7kW/h, plus they've shown images of them and they're different. Sure, they have the potential to make a similar bike for significantly less than a Zero but not in its current form, they'd need to make something more like the TC Max.

Let me put it this way. Their scooters are on par with £1.5k Chinese scooters with £1.5k worth of motor and battery stuffed in them, the RQi is more like a £6/7k bike with £2.5k worth of motor, battery, and controller stuffed in it. If I had to bet my money would be on it costing around £8k, so about £2k less than a comparable Zero but still over double their most expensive scooter.

[Crissa]

Every motorcycle is going to consume ~4x as many cells as a scooter, though, which seems like something that will constrain production.

But yeah, it does look spiff.

-Crissa

[TheRan]

The scooter is 60v and 70Ah. That's gonna be 14 or 15 18650s in series (58.8v or 63v) and let's say they're 3.5Ah each, that's 20 in parallel (10 per pack). That means the scooter will have 280 to 300 cells in it.

The RQi is probably going to be around 70v and 90Ah or 100v and 63Ah (to get a 6.5kW/h capacity, I've also heard it's going to be 7kW/h but let's be generous). That comes out to around 432 to 442 cells.

Not only is that quite a significant difference in materials it's also going to add quite a bit to the cost. Around £6 seems to be the going rate for a Panasonic cell of that capacity, obviously they'll get them cheaper but even if we say it'll only be half that you're looking at about an extra £450 to power the RQi (and that's just the cost of the cells, nothing else factored in).

[Richard230]

I have always wondered how much labor it takes to wire up those individual cells. That must add substantially to the cost of assembling a battery pack for a vehicle, especially a motorcycle that likely uses a relatively weirdly shaped pack, compared with what is used in a car.

[wavelet]

https://www.niu.com/en/ces-2020/
What we know about the batteries is that the RQi uses NIU "4th Gen Lithium Battery Technology". It uses 18650 Panasonic Lithium-Ion cells, for total capacity of 3.25-3.5 kWh per battery. (Tesla mostly uses Panasonic cells, made in factory co-owned by Tesla and Panasonic.)
I have tested NIU scooters and I was impressed. I would not call them low quality. Fit and finish is great, power is good.

Hmm... Where did NIU explicitly state they're using 18650s in the RQi, which has a new battery design? Some cursory googling doesn't yield any mention of the specific cell form-factor; A single PR-type photo that looks like a stock photo does show cylindrical cells, but that's not quite enough to  go on.

For large-(ish) battery modules and decent manufacturing volumes, I'd exoect pouch cells, like most other e-motorcycles.

[TheRan]

I'd forgotten about that image. With the rounded shape it actually looks like it's one of their scooter batteries. It also shows 13 in series and 6 parallel (doubled because they use two packs) so a 55v pack (close enough to 60v I guess) , however it would require ~5800mAh cells to equal the GT's capacity so it could be from one of the lower capacity models (one of them is about half so seems about right).


Scooter: https://www.niu.com/en/n-gt/img/con8-bike.jpg
RQi: https://global.niu.com/static/i18n/widget/en/ces-2020/images/rqi/rqi-p-6_17f21a37.jpg