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[heroto]

Screaming headlines and pie in the sky aside, when will see batteries with:

significantly increased energy density
lower price of admission in terms of charing time, range, weight and volume
divaishness/fragility
lifespan

[DonTom]

Screaming headlines and pie in the sky aside, when will see batteries with:

energy density
lower cost in terms of charing time, range, weight and volume
charging rate
fragility

When?  A few years ago! If you're in a hurry for better faster,  buy an Energica with the 20.5KWH battery.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[TheRan]

Screaming headlines and pie in the sky aside, when will see batteries with:

energy density
lower cost in terms of charing time, range, weight and volume
charging rate
fragility

When?  A few years ago! If you're in a hurry for better faster,  buy an Energica with the 20.5KWH battery.

-Don-  Reno, NV

I wouldn't say Energeica batteries are better, just different. They'll charge faster but probably won't last as long. It's not even close to being new technology either, they're just li-po's. Their range also isn't that impressive for the capacity, especially considering the better aerodynamics compared to a Zero, but I can't say for sure that's all down to the battery.

What does Zero use anyway? LiFePO? For vehicular use it's probably one of the better chemistries. Without working in the battery industry it's probably hard for anyone to really give a good answer for when something better will come along because there are so many companies saying they have something better coming and throwing around numbers but you rarely see anything come from it.

This article may be of interest. Note how he invented li-ion batteries back in the 80s and how long it took for those to catch on, how Japanese researchers thought they had the next big thing back in 2014 with some cotton based battery but nothing ever emerged. Even if this stuff does work as well as they say it does in a lab there could always be problems that arise with real world use.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/does-new-glass-battery-accelerate-the-end-of-oil

[DonTom]

I wouldn't say Energeica batteries are better, just different. They'll charge faster but probably won't last as long. It's not even close to being new technology either, they're just li-po's. Their range also isn't that impressive for the capacity, especially considering the better aerodynamics compared to a Zero, but I can't say for sure that's all down to the battery.

I thought the new 21.5 KWH Energica battery was even lighter than my Energica 13.4 KWH battery. IOW, a newer technology. Besides the fact that it can be charged at above 25 KWs and has the longest range of any electric motorcycle (250 miles/400 KM).

And if they are not fast charged too often,  I assume they will last at least as long as Zero's batteries. But they cannot warranty them as long because they can be fast charged as often as one wants to.

Besides, I think the battery is crapping out already on my 2017 Zero DS. I will have to start a thread about that later.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

I doubt the total battery pack is lighter, Don.  I would bet they're saving weight elsewhere.

-Crissa

[Mudface]

Actually the new Energica 21.4 KW/h battery is lighter and a bit smaller.

[Crissa]

I expect it isn't the cells, but the frame or case itself, that's lighter.

-Crissa

[ESokoloff]

Screaming headlines and pie in the sky aside, when will see batteries with:

energy density
lower cost in terms of charing time, range, weight and volume
charging rate
fragility

Not an expert so don't know the answers but if you believe the info in this video, market ready mass produced solid state battery's are still 5 years out at best.

Toyota will be showing off their advancement in this technology during this Summer's Olympics.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1125644_toyota-solid-state-battery-won-t-be-ready-for-production-until-middle-of-next-decade

[DonTom]

I expect it isn't the cells, but the frame or case itself, that's lighter.

-Crissa

I expect it is the cells, because of the new way  they rate their ranges. It's  VERY different from my SS9.  The new battery gives more than double the range at slower speeds but MUCH less than double at higher speeds. That seems to indicate that the cells are different from the older battery, but I don't think Energica is saying so.

Notice how Zero batteries give their specs. You get a battery with twice  the KWH and you get exactly double the range at ANY speed, unlike Energica's old versus new battery.  Something obviously changed in the chemistry of the new Energica battery pack, which means the cells.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

Again, Dom, that's because all batteries have an output curve and they're not rated in amperage output at the highway speed.  You can't just double the wattage and get double at all points on the curve; the ends are tacked down somewhere.

-Crissa

[DonTom]

You can't just double the wattage and get double at all points on the curve; the ends are tacked down somewhere.

Be sure to explain that to Zero. Have you ever compared the specs on the 6.5 KWH battery to their 13?  Or their 7.2KWH battery to their 14.4 on the same bike? Exactly double at any speed, very unlike the new Energica battery--way out of proportion to their old battery  as speed increases. To the point where their older smaller rated KWH battery probably gives better range at 100 MPH, yet newer battery has  double range at slower speeds.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Crissa]

A Zero uses less energy to go the same distance at speed than an Energica, Don.

-Crissa

[DonTom]

A Zero uses less energy to go the same distance at speed than an Energica, Don.

-Crissa

My Zero SR with Power tank is fairly heavy and still gets range in proportion to Zero battery sizes, unlike comparing  Energica's lighter but more KWH newer battery to their old.

Does anybody here know what cell the new and old Energica batteries use?  I assume the newer lighter battery is a different cell than their older heavier battery with less KWHs available.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Moto7575]

The forcasts for battery cost improvement are between -30% cost in 2050 to -60%.
So it is possible that the improvement slows down (-30% in 30 years = less than -1% per year)

[Richard230]

The forcasts for battery cost improvement are between -30% cost in 2050 to -60%.
So it is possible that the improvement slows down (-30% in 30 years = less than -1% per year)

Is it likely that battery cost and performance predictions are as accurate as forecasting the weather?