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[MostlyBonkers]

Part 1 of 2

I think it's safe to say that we're all very familiar with people describing driving an EV as smooth, refined, quiet, tranquil and so on.  The benefits of instant torque are mentioned a lot, but whilst so many petrol heads are comfortable with what torque is, I can't help thinking that it is an experience that's hard to convey.

Riding to work on my piston powered motorcycle the other day, I got some inspiration as I approached a bridge that forms part of an s-bend.  I was in third gear and chose to leave it there, which wasn't a problem.  I had to slow down for the corners and knew the bike would be comfortable in that gear.  However, it did occur to me that second gear would be more appropriate in terms of engine braking, control and acceleration out of the final bend.  I would certainly have dropped to second gear if I had been riding in a more spirited fashion but I was happy just pottering along and just couldn't be bothered with the extra gear changes.  It got me thinking about how often we must make that choice when we're riding or driving piston vehicles with manual gearboxes.  All the time, probably, despite the fact that changing gear is something that quickly becomes natural and requires very little effort.  So why is this worthy of any thought at all?  What's the bid deal?  It's just a normal, every day part of driving.  Until you drive an EV. 

I got to thinking that we're constantly making compromises when we drive with a gearbox. In order to have a bit of fun driving with pistons we have to work the gearbox and clutch.  Even with dual clutch gearboxes, there is still the workload associated with thinking about the correct gear and changing at the right moment so as not to over-rev the engine or create a jerky ride.  If you leave the box in automatic, then it'll tend to keep in the highest gear possible and will have to drop a couple of gears if you want to accelerate suddenly.  Sport mode might keep the revs up it doesn't know what's coming and can't always predict the right gear to be in.  Although an automatic is easier to drive 99% of the time, these little mis-steps can be frustrating at times.  A CVT transmission will also take some time to respond to the need for more torque and acceleration, not least because the piston engine also has to get up to speed.

Changing gears can be engaging and fun but what I think we need is for people to make that leap of intuition and realise that gearboxes are nothing more than a solution to an inherent weakness of combustion engines.  It's hard to explain how liberating it is to be able to press an accelerator or twist a throttle and instantly get exactly the right amount of acceleration you want.  Persuading someone to go and take a test drive in an EV can be difficult.

To get the absolute best performance from my motorcycle on that s-bend would actually require me to drop it down to 1st gear.  However, it also happens to be the most challenging gear to control the bike in.  That means it very seldom gets used for more than low speed maneuvering.  Who actually enjoys riding in 1st gear for any length of time?  It's certainly the most responsive gear and my bike will do 70mph before it hits the red with the revs.  It just doesn't feel right to have the engine revving like crazy when 2nd or 3rd gear will do the job nicely.  Each gear alters the responsiveness and control significantly.  The challenge of it can be fun but I don't miss having gears when driving an EV or riding my Zero motorcycle.  In fact, the first thing I notice when jumping back on a piston bike is how quickly it runs out of revs.  I get spoilt by my Zero being able to accelerate away from the lights up to whatever speed is appropriate without having to change any gears.  Gears seem like a nuisance...  I can get all the acceleration I need, instantly, at any speed and it's effortless.  That is just brilliant, in my book!

[MostlyBonkers]

Part 2 of 2

To illustrate the difference, I'm going to have a go at documenting the gear changes I need to make on my 30 mile commute, 11 miles of which are on the motorway:

Piston bike               Electric bike
Clutch in
Select 1st
Accelerate               Accelerate
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Slow down               Slow down
Clutch in
Select 1st
Turn right               Turn right
Accelerate               Accelerate
Riding: 1,2
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Slow down for mini roundabout
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate               Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 4th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Slow down for mini roundabout
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 4th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 15s
Slow down for mini roundabout
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 4th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 15s
Slow down for traffic lights
Clutch in
Select 1st
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Slow down for traffic lights
Clutch in
Select 1st
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Slow down for bend
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Slow down for mini roundabout
Clutch in
Select 1st
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Slow down for bends and bridge
Riding: 10s
Slow down for bend
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 4th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 5s
Slow down for left turn
Turning onto the slip road to join a dual carriageway.  Are you still with me?
Clutch in
Select 1st
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 4th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 5th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 6th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1m
Slow down for roundabout
Select 1st
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5
Coming off the roundabout onto more dual carriageway
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 4th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 5th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 6th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 15s
Slow down for roundabout
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5
Coming off the roundabout onto more dual carriageway
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 4th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 5th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 6th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 15s
Meet traffic queuing at roundabout
Slow down
Select 2nd
Filter for 20-30s
Arrive at roundabout
Select 1st
Accelerate
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5
Coming off the roundabout onto more dual carriageway
Lots of traffic so filter for 20-30s
Arrive at roundabout
Select 1st
Accelerate
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 4th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 5th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 6th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 15s
Slow down and stop at lights
Clutch in
Block change down from 6th to 4th
Clutch out
Slow down
Clutch in
Block change down to 2nd
Clutch out
Filter
Clutch in
Stop
Select Neutral
Clutch out
Lights change
Clutch in
Select 1st
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4
Slow down for exit
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Traffic
Clutch in
Select 1st
Clutch out
Filter 10s
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Riding: 1,2,3,4
Clutch out
Accelerate onto motorway
Riding: 1,2,3,4
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 4th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 5th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 1,2,3,4,5,6
Clutch in
Select 6th
Clutch out
Accelerate
Riding: 10m
Slow down to exit the motorway
Clutch in
Block change down from 6th to 4th
Clutch out
Slow down
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Jesus Christ, I'm getting bored...
Riding: 10s
Accelerate
Clutch in
Select 4th
Clutch out
Riding: 10-15s
Clutch in
Block change down to 2nd
Clutch out
Traffic
Clutch in
Select 1st
Clutch out
Filter
Join roundabout
Clutch in
Select 2nd
Clutch out
Riding 10s
Exit roundabout
Clutch in
Select 3rd
Clutch out
Accelerate onto A41
Clutch in
Select 4th
Clutch out
Riding: 10s
This is about half way time-wise, but the rest is through central London...  I don't think I can face documenting that and I don't think you want me to subject you to it either!

I've not seen anyone detail the effort involved in having to change gears all the time.  Does it help to illustrate why gears seem so redundant after experiencing the benefits of an electric motor?

[Fran K]

Automatic transmissions never sold well in motorcycles.  There was a time Moto Guzzi and Honda offered one.

[giacomo]

Check out the Aprilia Mana ... interesting idea!

[cpallenjr]

Yes, exactly.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Honda still offers a DCT. It's not up to sport performance demands, but the NC700 and related family bikes are not sport bikes; more along the commuter-cruising axis.

Changing gears while commuting is something I find tiresome on my V-Strom even with its low-RPM torque virtues. This is a major reason why I bought a Zero and it is a very solid component of what market Zero's excel at: high-mileage commuting.

I will say that in addition to the stop-and-go benefits of electric continuous transmission, merging with traffic is marvelously easy to manage because you just use the throttle position to ease the bike right into traffic and the speed and placement you like.

Escaping inattentive motorists is also trivial because a very consistent level of torque is available readily, which means I am more confident in any traffic situation on my Zero than on my V-Strom. And yes I've compared them over time; my V-Strom is less readily able to get away from a car crossing my lane, whereas it's trivially easy on my DSR.

[MostlyBonkers]

Honda still offers a DCT. It's not up to sport performance demands, but the NC700 and related family bikes are not sport bikes; more along the commuter-cruising axis.

Changing gears while commuting is something I find tiresome on my V-Strom even with its low-RPM torque virtues. This is a major reason why I bought a Zero and it is a very solid component of what market Zero's excel at: high-mileage commuting.

I will say that in addition to the stop-and-go benefits of electric continuous transmission, merging with traffic is marvelously easy to manage because you just use the throttle position to ease the bike right into traffic and the speed and placement you like.

Escaping inattentive motorists is also trivial because a very consistent level of torque is available readily, which means I am more confident in any traffic situation on my Zero than on my V-Strom. And yes I've compared them over time; my V-Strom is less readily able to get away from a car crossing my lane, whereas it's trivially easy on my DSR.

I've owned two Honda bikes with the DCT box; an NC750S and a VFR1200.  In fact DCT first made an appearance with the VFR1200.  It was fantastic on both bikes and the only reason I got rid of the VFR was because I got an opportunity to buy my Zero, so I traded it.  You can specify the Africa twin with DCT now as well as the adventure version of the VFR1200.  I highly recommend taking a look if you can only own one bike that has to commute as well as go touring.  You get the flappy paddle style manual override so you can have some fun with it too.  However, I found that I couldn't be bothered with manual changes even on the twisty bits as Sport mode did an excellent job.  As it's DCT, the changes are silky smooth, very quick and it handles full throttle acceleration really well.  You're still aware that there are gears though and it's never going to be as refined as an EV transmission.  It is very close though.

Good point about escaping inattentive motorists, Brian.  It's a great example of when you need that instant torque and it really makes a difference.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I actually like DCT because it reduces wear on the transmission and clutch, leading to greater longevity presumably.

My only concern personally is that the controller board another non serviceable black box that locks the owner out of vehicle diagnostics, much like the electric motorcycle vendors who inherited these approaches.

My statement above was to avoid criticism from sport riders.

[DaveJ98092]

I take it that most on here have not spent much time riding a large cc Super Scooter with a CVT. If I gave you a week to ride my Suzuki Burgman 650 with its Computer controlled CVT you may buy one for your stable of two wheelers. And I bet at the end of 1 year your other ICE bike will have half the miles/Km's of the Burgman. I have ridden a Burgman 650 since 2006 and logged around 180,000 miles. I have crashed 2 of them, real bad.

Start up. Key on and hit start button. It is in drive mode all the time with no gears or neutral. Just like an EV!
Twist the throttle and it moves. Left lever on handle bar is rear brake so a bit of learning curve. Excellent engine braking so you can coast down without using any brakes.

Now it does have three computer modes:
Auto mode: The computer sets the CVT in a good ratio. Hammer the throttle and in millasecond it will downshift to a better ratio. From a stop and hammer the gas and it will set the RPM's at 3500 and hold it there till the CVT ratio catchs up and then climb to the 8500 RPM redline.

Power Button mode: Here the computer keeps it in auto mode but raises the RPM level (lower CVT ratio) to get it in the power band quicker. Great for twisty hills but should be limited to 50 MPH/80Km/h where the benefit is less.

Manual mode: Now this mode is not used by many. But I do use it. The computer has set 6 gear ratio's but it is not a real gear. The computer sets a step for the CVT to move the pulley for that gear. If you learn to hammer the throttle and upshift right before it hits the rev limiter at 8500 RPM and it will move real quick to about 85 MPH but Auto mode works better after that. Top speed is about 110 in Manual mode and 115-122 MPH in Auto.

I got 50 MPG in mixed speed commuting on the I-405, but anywhere from 47 MPG at constant 90 MPH to 58 MPG at a steady 60 MPH. Has a 4 US Gallon gas tank so 190 mile to 230 mile range.

So, until you really give a super scooter a good test ride you'll never understand how close to riding an EV it is.

[Crilly]

One thing about scooters is no scraping feet or pegs.

[DaveJ98092]

But I can and have scraped the front tupperware and the centerstand many times.

[cpallenjr]

[snipped]
So, until you really give a super scooter a good test ride you'll never understand how close to riding an EV it is.

I owned a BMW C650GT before getting the C Evolution, and you are right there are similarities in the fact that you're not using a clutch and manually changing gears - but that is where the similarities begin and end. There are HUGE differences in the performance and 'feel'. Not to mention maintenance. You should ride an EV. If you like your scooter you will love an EV (if you can work with the range limitation).

[kcfoxie]

The few times per year I have to ride in an ICE vehicle, I get scared with the "free fall" coasting that they do (less so if it's a manual, but that's really rare thee days). It really stresses me out.

[Richard230]

The few times per year I have to ride in an ICE vehicle, I get scared with the "free fall" coasting that they do (less so if it's a manual, but that's really rare thee days). It really stresses me out.

If you think that is bad, my first car was a 1958 DKW Junior, which had a system that disconnected the drive wheels from the clutch when you took your foot off of the gas.  Then you were in what we used to call "Mexican Overdrive".  So I have my Zero set to do the same thing with the throttle shut.  Kind of brings back memories.