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[Richard230]

Yamaha showed off three new electric motorcycles/scooters at the 2013 Tokyo Motorcycle Show.  But apparently they are concepts meant to generate interest in their brand.  Yamaha still doesn't seem willing to market a production EV, though.   

http://rideapart.com/2013/11/yamaha-2013-tokyo-motor-show-concepts/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+HellForLeather+%28Hell+For+Leather%29

[Olav]

Hey, that Bolt Cafe is using FastAce performance shocks on the front!

[Richard230]

Here is a link to another article, including the official Yamaha press release: 

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/11/yamaha-motorcycles-toyko-2013/

[WindRider]

Nice looking concepts... no specs about battery pack density or motor performance.

[NoiseBoy]

These announcements are quite important because it shows that the big players are putting serious thought into the electric bike market.  It also justifies Zero's approach of aiming for the high ticket prestige market (think MV Agusta, Ducati, Bimota) because they know as soon as the Big 4 enter the market they will be beaten on price.

[Richard230]

These announcements are quite important because it shows that the big players are putting serious thought into the electric bike market.  It also justifies Zero's approach of aiming for the high ticket prestige market (think MV Agusta, Ducati, Bimota) because they know as soon as the Big 4 enter the market they will be beaten on price.

I agree.  If the Big four Japanese companies (more likely the big 3, I don't think Suzuki has the capital to give e-bikes a try) decide to enter the electric motorcycle market they will likely subsidize their products in order to keep the price down and give the market a kick-start.  Zero could never keep up with their financial, marketing and dealer resources.  The big problem with the Japanese is that they don't like to take risks and want someone else to establish the market first before they step in and scoop up the low-hanging fruit.   

[Olav]

These announcements are quite important because it shows that the big players are putting serious thought into the electric bike market.  It also justifies Zero's approach of aiming for the high ticket prestige market (think MV Agusta, Ducati, Bimota) because they know as soon as the Big 4 enter the market they will be beaten on price.

I agree.  If the Big four Japanese companies (more likely the big 3, I don't think Suzuki has the capital to give e-bikes a try) decide to enter the electric motorcycle market they will likely subsidize their products in order to keep the price down and give the market a kick-start.  Zero could never keep up with their financial, marketing and dealer resources.  The big problem with the Japanese is that they don't like to take risks and want someone else to establish the market first before they step in and scoop up the low-hanging fruit.   

Sounds about right.

My Wife and I are investigating the electric car market to see if there is a good fit.

Problem is most of the cars are simply compliance  cars. They only are making enough to fulfill California's CARB reqirements and get enough carbon credits. Honda, Toyota for example. So they are not available due to long waiting lists.

It's unfortunate.

Another observation is the sales people aren't really trained to sell these "high tech" vehicles so no one can answer questions.

As I like to research stuff a lot it's not a bother for me but I bet it would hinder some sales.

Tesla is doing it all right in that everyone is super knowledgable about the product and that makes you feel comfortable taking the leap into the new electric transportation frontier.

[Marshm]

The dirt bike looks more like what I am used to than Zero's FX.  Maybe it is juts the dirt tires and no headlight.  A transmission, I wonder how many gears.  I bet they don't even know because it is such a concept.  Smartphone information, so it looks like they at least looked at Zero enough to copy that.    Looks like one big sealed unit like KTM was thinking. It looks real nice.  That low weight makes me think it is a 30 minute moto bike though, not useful in trails. 

[protomech]

Brammo reportedly sold very few Enertias at $8000. Zero killed the XU after very limited sales at $8000. I think limited dealerships hurt the less expensive bikes - if you have $20k to spend you will probably be willing to spend a lot more time tracking down a dealer than if you have $8k. Nevertheless, clearly the market for ~30 mile small electric bikes from unknown brands is very small.

What if two things change?

1. Offer a small bike from a known brand with an established dealership presence. Eg Yamaha.

2. Offer a small bike at a very low price. At what price would a small electric bike take off and become a sales success?

At $1000 clearly they would sell every one they could make.

At $8000 probably they would not sell very many.

So some price in between may be profitable.


Honda's 2014 Grom represents a probable target. 125cc, 225 pounds, sub-60 mph, $3000.

If Yamaha sacrificed range for power, what could they build for a 60 mph (10 kW) electric motorcycle and how close could they get to the $3000 price point?

Here are the electric-specific components:

$200 10 kW motor
$800 2 kWh battery pack (20 mile range)
$200 1 kW onboard charger w/ 12V DC/DC
$300 high-amp controller

$1500. I would bet the gas power train for the Honda bike probably costs around $800 in volume: 125cc air-cooled engine, fuel tank, injection system, ignition, exhaust, 12V battery, starter motor, alternator, transmission.

Suppose Yamaha drops the transmission, LED lighting, etc and releases their bike at $4000. Lighter and faster than the Grom. Make the battery pack removable, split it into two modules like the Zero pack @ 20 pounds each and allow the same type of unequal SOC draw. Sell extra battery modules @ $600 each.

Design the bikes for reliability, and offer a five year power train warranty. Emphasize that the five year operating costs for the Yamaha bike will be far cheaper than the Grom.

Could Yamaha do it? Would Yamaha do it?

[Richard230]

I think Yamaha could do it.  But I don't think they will.   They want volume sales and I don't think they have the guts to give electric motorcycles a go unless something changes big time - like gas prices doubling, government regulations force them to do it and/or EV batteries come down in price substantially.  In the past Yamaha has killed off some interesting bikes in the U.S. because their yearly sales were less than 3500 units.  But they might go for EV sales in Japan, unless Japan electricity is in short supply due to the shutdown of their nuclear reactors.  That would seem like a good market for an electric motorcycle or scooter - at least to me.

[NoiseBoy]

Surely China is the target market for any small low range EV, but they would obviously be built in China by a Chinese company.  They are already churning out cheap electric scooters so it can obviously be done.

You guys always talk about gas prices doubling, but bare in mind that petrol already costs twice as much in Europe and it doesn't stop people driving V8's.  Plus cities tend to be more dense this side of the pond, so I have to think if cheap EVMCs will work anywhere in the west it will be in European cities.

[Richard230]

Here is a link to an interesting walk-around-video from the Tokyo Motor Show showing the exterior details of the PES1 and PED1 "Experimental" Yamaha motorcycles.  Personally I really like the design of the PES1, but they really need to fill all of that empty space with more batteries.