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[Richard230]

Hello Mehive.  You might try being more positive when opening the throttle. I think the stalling issue when at a stop has to do with the throttle.  It takes more movement of the throttle to get the bike rolling in Eco mode than is true for most IC motorcycles.  Try giving the throttle a positive turn when taking off from a stop in that mode and see if that helps.

[BSDThw]

Mehive did your bike fall over to the right side => throttle?

I also had a defect throttle and your loss of power reminds me to mine.

I have the feeling the throttle is not very valuable.

Yesterday I had a discussion with a Quantya dealer, he is testing different throttles.
Maybe I will pick up one if his results are positive.

[ColoPaul]

Update:
  Took the bike in 1 week ago; the dealer took the data file and sent it to Zero that day.  According to the service manager, he calls Zero every day, and they haven't yet provided him with a diagnosis.      Is the service manager feeding me a line because he has better-paying non-warranty work to do?  Or is Zero service swamped with recall work and broken bikes?   Gives a new meaning to "Zero feedback"!!     At some point, I'm going to call that warranty manager at Zero who called me sometime back and see if I can get some info.

[JohnSki]

I have been an Electronic Technician and Computer Engineer for 35 years.  I think Lipo423 has a good idea if you are using mechanical potentiometer to control the bike.  What I have seen with these potentiometers in joysticks on CAD/CAM equipment is that they normally create a dead spot.  This dead spot is normally where the potentiometer sits most of the time and can create erroneous signals possibly going negative when you want a positive direction.  One thing though, if it is replaced the problem would go away for as long as the original potentiometer took to fail.

I think Richard230 idea “You might try being more positive when opening the throttle” might be good it the dead spot is at the neutral throttle position.
I was reading an owner manual for a ZEV scooter at http://www.environmentfriendlystore.com/pdf/ZEV-Operations-Manual.pdf.
They were saying “A very slow small throttle opening and an immediate rollback may result in the controller shutdown” on their bike. It says that the controller sees this as if the bike is against a wall and unable to move. Also they warn about revving the throttle as if you were on an ICE bike. Also they warn about trying to hold the bike on a hill with the throttle and not the brake.

It would be interesting if the Brammo Enetia throttle was a compatible replacement.

[trikester]

When I'm walking my DS up the ramp into the bed of my pickup I hold it briefly with the throttle several times as I take a new step on the parallel ramp. I've never had a problem with anything due to these brief holds, on a steep slope, with the throttle. I supposed if I tried to hold it for an extended period something would overheat and perhaps fail.

Trikester

[Electric Terry]

How many of you have experienced a motor vibration resulting in a loss of power or cutout? 

I am positive this has something to do with motor timing.  About a week ago I rode almost 400 miles and back to the Zero dealer in Sarasota FL and we re calibrated the timing of the motor to the controller.  The low speed cutouts ceased to happen which was the main issue, pulling away from stoplights and having a loss of power.  But immediately after I am experiencing motor vibrations like the magnetic forces in the motor are working against each other, usually after 15-20 minutes of riding.  it kinda feels and sounds like you go from riding on a smooth road to riding on rough road with gravel and sand and the bike having so much rolling resistance it slows down even though you are on the throttle.   If i accelerate hard when it does this it always cuts out, however letting off the throttle and back on doesn't usually fix it either.  ususally when riding I have to try cycling the key back and forth a few times till it doesnt happen anymore.  I wish there was a way to leave the headlight on when doing this, as often i confuse drivers around me as the headlight goes out for 5-6 seconds. 

There has been a theory raised that the motor needs to be hot and close to peak temp when performing the recalibration.  My bike was sitting, waiting for an hour or so before the calibration took place.  So, if you're taking your bike in for service, request they ride (or you) 3-5 min at 88 mph (or do full throttle acceleration up and down a side street over and over again) until you get the solid temperature indicator and then perform the function CALSINCOS right away.  I plan on doing this in the next few days and will let you know the results.   It does seem like something that gets worse with time as I also remember not having a single issue for almost 2000 miles and then over the last 4k (6k miles on the bike now) it has been getting what seems to be progressively worse.  I used to think it was the throttle having dead spots but am not leaning that way anymore.  I think it has to do with how the controller thinks the motor positioning is.

[protomech]

Sounds like the motor roughness I'm experiencing.

Zero is shipping the bike back to them for diagnosis and correction. Will report back when I hear more.

[ColoPaul]

Update, 2 weeks.
  This morning, after much prodding, I got a call from the dealer telling me they finally got a call from Zero regarding the diagnosis.  Zero is sending out a new BMS board; so I guess my glitch is not throttle related as some had thought.  The dealer said it'll take 5 business days for the part to arrive; and then they'll need time to install.  Close to a month without my bike.    I pushed the dealer for more info but that's all they'd say.   I hope the new BMS fixes it!!
 
   I wish I had Richard230's karma (note Zero even called him proactively, just based on his post in this forum):

In any case, I just received a call from Zero, who told me that they wanted to go over my bike and reprogram the controller. They are going to stop by my home later this week, pick up my bike and return it to the factory, drop off a loaner for me to use while mine is being checked over and fixed at the factory. They will ride it around for a day to make sure everything is up to spec and return it to my home.  All I have to do is to open up my garage door a couple of times. Now that is what I call great service!   

  Hey Zero, if you're reading this I'd love to know: 
    Why isn't there any indication of failure on the display when the glitch happens? -- What is actually happening when the glitch occurs? 
    What failed on my BMS board and what is different about the new BMS board that would give me confidence that this won't happen again?

[Electric Terry]

Ok so I'm going through this thread and it seems like there might be 2 issues.  The one that richard and oobflyer experienced and was fixed, and the other that all the rest of us are experiencing where the motor cuts out and sometimes feels like it is out of phase with the controller and runs rough.  it looks like about 8 of us on this forum.  Anyone else?  

I think if Zero can get one bike back and figure out what it is, instead of paying to ship the bikes back and forth we can perform the fix ourselves.  At least that's what I'm hoping for.  I think Protomech's bike may be the first they will have gotten back.  I don't know how many other Zero owners are encountering this that aren't on this forum.  There's about 30 of us here and about a quarter of us have the issue.  And most of us didn't have any problem for the first 2000 miles or so, and then went another 1000 or so before the 2nd occurance, and have had it get worse and worse as the miles rack up.  Mine only cut out twice before I hit 4000 miles.  i'm at a little over 6,500 miles now and its definitely getting worse as time goes on.  I wonder if those who haven't had it occur have less than 2-3 thousand miles?  I'm just trying to grasp the scope of this, although I talked to one of the guys a Zero yesterday and he said they have bikes there with 25,000 miles and haven't experienced this.  I almost couldn't believe that.

I requested a set of cables to try experimenting with recalibrating the motor to the controller at different temperatures (there's a chance getting the motor hot first might help) to see if I can make it better, and they were going to send a set, but a week later said they informed me they couldn't let end users have these cables and I needed to ship my bike back to them.  What??  close to $2000 in shipping versus a $15 OBDII to USB cable?  Someone at Zero needs to revisit the math on that one, lol.  

The timing procedure takes less than 5 minutes once the back wheel is off the ground.  Richard230, when you talk to the other Richard at Zero, Richard Walker, make sure you express the insanity of shipping bikes back and forth 3000 miles to perform a 5 minute adjustment?  In fact I might just email him myself soon to discuss the issue the bikes are having and the best way to go about solving it.  My stance is the decision should be the customers.  If the customer doesn't feel comfortable doing his own service, than Zero should pay to ship the bike back and fix it for them, but from a financial aspect, encouraging customers to learn about their bikes and perform simple tasks like the BMS replacement or timing is logically the best approach.

If it's a liability issue, that if we perform something incorrectly and it causes us to have an accident, let us sign something saying they aren't liable and we wish to perform our own service at our own risk.  But i don't think there's anything any of us could do to make is less safe than it is right now when i'm in the middle of a packed highway with traffic moving at 75 mph and the bike cuts out and I'm trying to reset the key over and over as drivers are trying to run me over and i'm going too slow to cut a lane over to get to he shoulder, Or pulling out to cross a busy road and the bike cuts out and you panic to push the bike away from the car hitting you at 50 mph like a sitting duck.  Given the choice from what I experience right now, I'd gladly sign the waiver, lol.  

Thoughts on this?

[Richard230]

My feeling is that if you think there is a safety issue with the 2012 Zeros (and it appears that is what you believe), you should file a complaint with the NHTSA. That might result in a recall and fix. After all, Zero did a recall for the front brake switch and the BMS board waterproofing.  Your issue would seem to be even more serious.

[Electric Terry]

I definitely would like Zero to discover the problem themselves vs being forced to do some sort of recall.  The last BMS recall I'm wondering if it was premature, meaning the same cutting out that was blamed and caused the BMS replacement was actually some other issue.  Harlan pointed out it could be something as simple as signal noise or interference on the motor positioning and motor thermistor wires, which in my case makes a lot of sense as they are packed in with 4 anderson Y-cables for the additional onboard chargers.  i'm going to try to reroute them and shield them from anything else.  I'm willing to try anything at this point.

ColoPaul, expevride, monarchhonda, mehve, protomech, rotoiti, trikester, RickSteeb - just to verify, all of you have had a cut out that only a key off/on would fix, correct?

1) was it raining, or had the bike recently gotten wet?
2) how many miles were on the bike when it first occurred?
3) how many total times has it happened?
4) have you only gone to twist the throttle and no power, or have you been riding, heard a "clunk" and have it cut off?
5) has anyone had the bike try to go backwards when twisting the throttle?
6) have you ever had to unplug and replug for any reason the wiring harness going to the motor or move it's routing for any reason?
7) Do any of you frequently switch between sport and Eco mode?

ok I'll begin:

1) first two times it occured it was raining and wouldn't go after pulling off and waiting to get out of a bad storm
2) first time 2200 miles, second time 3500 miles
3) only twice in the first 4000 miles, here and there up to 6000 miles, now unfortunately it is every day
4) I have heard a 'clunk' 5 or 6 times, most of the time there is just no throttle response at all and i don't hear the motor "energizing" sound.  When I cycle the key and hear that noise, I know when I twist the throttle it will go that time.
5) The bike has tried to go backwards very slowly when twisting the throttle 3 times <--- first time it freaked me out!
6) Yes I have when routing the Y-cables for the chargers, that's why I mention this to see if anyone else did this too
7) Yes, I used to switch almost eery time i would brake then back again to accelerate

ok who's next? feel free Harlan or anyone else to ask any other questions that might be relevant.

Thanks guys! Let's see if we can figure this out!

[ColoPaul]

1) was it raining, or had the bike recently gotten wet?
2) how many miles were on the bike when it first occurred?
3) how many total times has it happened?
4) have you only gone to twist the throttle and no power, or have you been riding, heard a "clunk" and have it cut off?
5) has anyone had the bike try to go backwards when twisting the throttle?
6) have you ever had to unplug and replug for any reason the wiring harness going to the motor or move it's routing for any reason?
7) Do any of you frequently switch between sport and Eco mode?

1) Nope. 
2) 1800 
3) Went from a two glitches on day 1 to couldn't-ride-it by day #4
4) yes, that's the 'glitch'
5, 6, 7) no

[trikester]

After my MBB was replaced on the 2012 and the main power solenoid on the 2010 I haven't had any more problems with either bike. Conditions under which the cut-outs occurred were normal every day type. No bad weather involved.

Because my 2010 DS was one of the first ones shipped it had an inadequate main solenoid relay. Zero had quickly upgraded those before they shipped many bikes that year. Unfortunately, they didn't do a recall so I had to experience mine failing before getting it replaced.

Trikester

[protomech]

1) was it raining, or had the bike recently gotten wet?
2) how many miles were on the bike when it first occurred?
3) how many total times has it happened?
4) have you only gone to twist the throttle and no power, or have you been riding, heard a "clunk" and have it cut off?
5) has anyone had the bike try to go backwards when twisting the throttle?
6) have you ever had to unplug and replug for any reason the wiring harness going to the motor or move it's routing for any reason?
7) Do any of you frequently switch between sport and Eco mode?

1) No, bike was bone dry first two times.
2) Once at 1500, once at 3700, many at 4000+
3) Probably 50+
4) Both, though the former is more frequent
5) I *think* this has happened to me once, slight backwards torque when the throttle was opened.
6) I stay away from the HV wires.
7) Yes

[Electric Terry]

5) I *think* this has happened to me once, slight backwards torque when the throttle was opened.

Yes that is it.  

I was hopeful that all of us that had this issue had something in common like too many eco regen switches, or rain or something.  Trikester i think the MBB issue you had is different than the one ColoPaul, Protomech, myself and perhaps some others are experiencing.  Glad you got it fixed though! On both your bikes!

Perhaps one common trend I see so far is it looks like there is something that requires wear or friction or use before it shows itself.  It looks like it takes 1500 to 2000 miles to even appear at all, then once what ever it is appears it starts getting more and more frequent.  

Yesterday after talking to Harlan I moved the connection plug for the motor sensors wires as far away from the motor itself as possible and almost hanging out the left side of the bike a little, and at least since yesterday it hasn't cut out yet, could be coincidence as it's only been 25 miles or so, yet thats further than i've been able to go for the past 3 weeks without numerous losses of power, so I'm crossing my fingers this continues.