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Author Topic: courier-delivery vehicle  (Read 2409 times)

Natasa Seri

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courier-delivery vehicle
« on: April 12, 2011, 08:19:59 PM »

Hello!!!I am a designer and I have to design a new small vehicle for couriers or delivery men.I would like to know the difficulties of this job,and I am interested in discussing everything about their motorcycles.
Please help me!!!!!
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gasdive

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2011, 06:42:15 AM »

Now you're a designer!

Finished that university degree you were working on yesterday then?

Ok, as a former motorcycle courier, let me help you out. 

First, the bike needs to be indestructable.   Second, it needs a range of 500km.  Third, it must cost less than 1000 dollars.  Fourth, no-one cares what it looks like so as a "designer" you're completely wasting everyone's time.

Away you go!  Looking forward to the result.

=:)
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Natasa Seri

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2011, 06:59:02 PM »

I don't understand your problem.I don't think that you are the right guy to judge me and of course I don't care about your wasting time.Thank you
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frodus

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2011, 02:10:22 AM »

Now you're a designer!

Finished that university degree you were working on yesterday then?

Ok, as a former motorcycle courier, let me help you out. 

First, the bike needs to be indestructable.   Second, it needs a range of 500km.  Third, it must cost less than 1000 dollars.  Fourth, no-one cares what it looks like so as a "designer" you're completely wasting everyone's time.

Away you go!  Looking forward to the result.

=:)

Dude, chill out. Hell of a way to welcome someone.

This person wants to know what some of the difficulties are. I'm guessing english isn't their primary language. I'm guessing you're multi-lingual? Maybe you can speak in their native language... perhaps that would help.

Now, I think it's normal for an engineer/designer to do some fact gathering before embarking on a design of a motorized vehicle, and if it were me, I'd look to the forums and ask people what some of the drawbacks and pitfalls are. See what people want/need. See what some of the negatives are.

It's called design constraints, and I think any good engineer should constrain as much as possible. It's not like people were just born with EV knowledge.


This is a forum for people to learn and help eachother. If you don't feel like being more supportive, then please don't post here.

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Travis

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2011, 02:17:51 AM »

Natasa, welcome!

Most of us would love to hear your ideas. Don't let gasdrive speak for all of us. Like Frodus said all ideas are welcome and your sure to find some like-minded people to bounce ideas off of.

please keep us in the loop on your project.
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gasdive

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2011, 04:13:17 AM »

Ok, so my tone sucks, however everything I said was completely correct.  I *have* been a courier.  There is *no* market for an electric courier bike.  The whole idea is completely absurd.  The person who posted this, posted something the day before claiming to be a student who didn't even know what the parts of an electric bike where.  Now a day later they're a "designer".   I don't know what they are, they're clearly happy to say whatever they think will get us to do their homework for them.  I would guess that the person who set their assignment doesn't know anything about it either. 

If they really were a designer then they'd be working for a company.  That company would have done *some* market research before they started design.  No company suddenly goes "quick, we need a new product, lets build toasters for poodles, you, John, design a poodle toaster". 

It's a sucky way to welcome someone to a forum.  It's also a sucky thing to get on a forum and tell people "you there, do my homework"

=:)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 04:21:08 AM by gasdive »
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frodus

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2011, 04:42:55 AM »

It sounds like they're a student trying to get some help. They're trying to gather information on a courier vehicle. It sounds like they've been tasked with a project and don't have much background, so they're coming to us. Lets help them. You're a newbie too (just like we all were at some point), so just relax a bit, I can help them since you don't feel like being constructive.





Now,
Natasa Seri,

Where are you from?
Can you ask us specific questions about what you want to know?
Who is assigning you the task of designing a courier vehicle?
Is this for school or for work?
What are the requirements for the design?
Budget?
Range?
Top Speed?
Motorcycle or Bicycle?

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Travis

gasdive

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2011, 03:41:29 PM »

Frodus, you're right.

You tackle it from that end, I'll take the other end then. 

My comments were snide, but they're real...  So lets expand on them and expose that reality.

"First, the bike needs to be indestructable.   Second, it needs a range of 500km.  Third, it must cost less than 1000 dollars.  Fourth, no-one cares what it looks like "

There are two main two wheeled delivery vehicles.  Owner operated and Company owned.  Seems obvious really.  Either the guy riding the bike bought the bike, or someone else bought the bike...  So lets break down the purchase criteria of the *buyers* of the bike. 

We need to remember that the designer is designing in the same way that a fisherman ties a lure.  The lure is not intended to be tasty or for the fish to enjoy, it's intended to make the fish bite.  Equally the bike is not designed to be enjoyable to ride, comfortable, reliable, practical, stable, or economical.  It's intended to make a potential purchaser change into an actual purchaser. 

So what will attract an owner rider.  Well several things, but the first thing that attracts an owner rider is ruggedness.  The bikes they choose are invariably unfaired, be it by design, or by having them crashed off.  So any kind of fairing will be shunned.  That eliminates all “scooter” style machines, all sports bikes (unless they're bought precrashed) and most touring style bikes.  Back in my day the popular bikes were things like CX500s, GPZ550s, well crashed GSX-R750s and various trail bikes.   I'm sure there are popular bikes now but I'm not sure of the actual bikes in use.  Still I'm sure they're similar to that.   The main thing about all of them is that they're bought second hand.  If you're designing a bike for an owner rider, then you're missing the point.  They won't buy it until it comes on the second hand market.  They also won't buy it until it has some crash damage.  They know that the bike will be bashed around in use.  So if they buy a damaged one they can get it at half the price (or less) knowing that it will look the same in 3 months anyway.  Unless you can sell new bikes for less than the price of a crash damaged 5 year old bike then no owner rider will buy it.   The owner riders are driven by money.  That's it.  Not a love of riding, just money.  They will happily carve up the traffic to shave 10 seconds off a delivery.   So a fast bike is popular (hence the crash damaged GSX-R being quite popular.   No rider is going to put up with swapping batteries, waiting for a recharge or any other stuff.  If the bike can be recharged overnight, that would make them happy.  A normal courier day is about 12 hours long and most of it is spent on the road.  Running in and out of buildings and chatting up receptionists while fun, is only a small part of the day.   So plan for a range that covers riding flat out (like your hair is on fire) for at least 8 and preferably 10 hours without a charge.  That's about 500 km of cut and thrust inner city traffic.  Not waiting in queues, *riding*.  Couriers don't wait in snarled up traffic.  They move, between the cars, on the footpath, through the park, into a pedestrian plaza, they don't care (I sure didn't).  Servicing gets done on the weekends so the lower servicing time of electrics is not an advantage in that it's not time off the road.  As I said they go out of their way to choose crash damaged bikes because they're cheaper.  They don't care what the bike looks like.  The worse it looks the better because it will be cheaper.  As long as the main parts are in more or less the right place, everything else is not just secondary, it's completely ignored.  The bikes are never washed, never fixed beyond the bare minimum.  There is zero pride of ownership. 

Fleet buyers are a slightly different kettle of fish.  I've never been a fleet buyer but I've been subjected to the results of their decisions...  They *never* buy second hand (unless you count occasional pizza places that buy ex Australia Post bikes).   The biggest seller of all two wheeled vehicles here in Australia is the Australia Post version of the Honda 110 Ag bike.  So big in fact that the statistics released on motorcycle sales no longer bother to include them simply because they dwarf all other sales by so much.  Built exclusively for Australia Post they're bought in huge numbers at absurdly low price.  They're run by AP for 10000 km and then sold at auction for more than AP buys them for.  Despite a full service every 1000 km the bikes are totally destroyed by the time they reach 10000 km (which is why AP offloads them).  (the postie bike club says that they're now holding onto them until 26000 km!)  There is no identifiable damping in the external spring front forks (1950's tech).  As a result under heavy braking the front wheel simply patters up and down without actually slowing the bike down much at all.  The frame is made of pressed steel.  It's amazingly heavy, somewhat flexible (that's a bad thing in case you didn't know, at least at this level of flexibility), impossible to repair, and absurdly poorly balanced, with almost all the weight on the back wheel and none on the front.  Why use it then?  The answer is that though pressed steel is ***VERY*** expensive to tool up for, once you've got the huge press, thousands and thousands of frames can be stamped out for almost nothing.  So unless you've got millions of dollars handy to tool up for the production of pressed steel frames, you will never be able to compete on price against them on a unit price level.   Pressed steel frames were popular 60 years ago when many people rode motorcycles.  No-one has created one for decades and I'd be stunned if anyone ever did again.  However if you're competing against the lowest bidder, that's what you're competing against.  The fleet buyers simply choose the lowest bidder.  So they don't care what the bike looks like.  I strongly suspect that most of them have never ridden a motorcycle anyway.  So any styling you do along with the basic design is a waste.  They don't care, they'll never even look at the bikes.   

So I stand by my initial comments.  No, I didn't dress them up in a way that makes it look like I care.  Still, they're true, they're to the point and if you ignore them then any company that relies on your advice is going to blow a stack of cash on something that will never work.   If on the other hand you're doing an assignment I'd just return a response, “It cannot be done in a way that will make a profit”. 

I actually doubt it can physically be done at all, even if money wasn't a factor in the business of building real motorcycles.  Even if you designed them and built them at a complete loss (you wouldn't be the first to do that, the Bugatti Veyron is reputed to cost 5 times more to make than it sells for).  A bike that was big enough to carry enough batteries to do what is needed wouldn't have anything left over for cargo and wouldn't be able to filter between cars.   Even a bike as remarkable as the Swigz racer wouldn't have anywhere near the range to do it and it's essentially a courier bike, GSX-R, topbox and all, but it's stuffed to gills with batteries and there's not even room for an envelope.  It would certainly need a Swigz style regen unit on it.  The mad and constant braking and acceleration of courier work is very like short course road racing. 

Cheers Jason =:)
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gasdive

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2011, 04:03:49 PM »

Oh, I should mention, as far as the owner operator bike goes, most riders can't afford to live right in the city.  There's usually no base where they leave their bikes over night, so they ride them in from some outer suburb, work all day, then ride them home again.   So if there's any doubt about the range requirement being as much as 500 km, there is generally going to be another 50-200 km range needed in addition to the actual courier work.   Even a slow day will have at least 300 km riding doing the actual deliveries.

Range requirement for a company owned bike would generally be much less.  Deliveries are normally done in a very small radius around a central base.  It's possible that a bike could physically be built (if cost were no object) that could meet the requirements however unless the company that built them subisdised them close to 100% of the cost, they wouldn't sell any, not as delivery bikes anyway.

=:)
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gasdive

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2011, 04:27:13 PM »

I should also mention this...   Get a copy of Motorcycle Handling and Chassis design by Tony Foale.   This is *the* book.  It's vital that you buy, read and understand that book.  There is a website http://www.tonyfoale.com/  An invaluable resource for anyone designing a motorcycle.  If you don't know this book, you can't really call yourself a motorcycle designer. 

It's not quite at the level of people who are still wondering what the parts of a motorcycle are called and where one might find them, but it is written in very simple language and is quite readable. 

=:)
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Natasa Seri

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2011, 08:44:37 PM »

thank you all very much for your support.It is only a project for my university!!I am not a motorcycle designer(of course)!!I think that i will persuade you to believe in my designs!!I took place in many forums and they answered me very kindly.I wound really like to know the difficulties of this job.Thank you
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frodus

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2011, 09:14:51 PM »

thank you all very much for your support.It is only a project for my university!!I am not a motorcycle designer(of course)!!I think that i will persuade you to believe in my designs!!I took place in many forums and they answered me very kindly.I wound really like to know the difficulties of this job.Thank you

What do you mean "I wound really like to know the difficulties of this job"

Can you explain in more detail what you need? That is a very broad question.

Please answer my questions above.
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Travis

Natasa Seri

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2011, 12:08:01 AM »

I want to know everything about this job.For example the traffic jam and the communication with the company.How do you protect yourself in the  rain.everything............
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 02:33:26 AM by Natasa Seri »
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gasdive

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2011, 04:21:51 AM »

I'd start by learning to ride a bike.  Nothing replaces personal experience.  Find a riding school (they are *everywhere* in the world).  Get your bike licence.  Join an online community in your area that organises rides and go on rides with other people.  Here's one in my area http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/moto/sydride/  I wouldn't recommend joining that one, join one in your area.  You will meet couriers.  See their bikes, talk to them.  Go and visit a courier company.  Explain *exactly* what you're doing.  Do ****NOT**** make up some lie that sounds good in your ears that you think will get the response you want.  This list is filled with starry eyed enthusiasts who want to save the planet.  (like me...)  If you try that shit with hard nosed business people you will have a very poor result.

Oh, and let us know how you get on, that's the payment that discussion groups work on. 

=:)
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frodus

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Re: courier-delivery vehicle
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2011, 09:28:52 PM »

I want to know everything about this job.For example the traffic jam and the communication with the company.How you protect yourself in the  rain.everything............

Use a walkie talkie and make everything waterproof....
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Travis
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