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[Demoni]

i know the display loves to hold last numbers too, and putting in lpr mode may have disabled certain checks and stuff.   if it was at 80 percent and never moved, and no power coming in (if that is the case) then he probably ran the battery into the basement.  i see that on my bike often, ill put it to bed at the end of the day with like 84 percent charge, it cools etc overnight, turn it on and the display will show 84 percent for a second or so then suddenly jump to like 80 percent or whatever the 'new' balance of the battery is (or it thinks it is)

LPR mode works however it's not the set it and forget it solution. If the outlet powering the EVSE you are using to charge the bike has a power interruption the charge session will end. Unless you unplug and reconnect the charge cable a new charge session will not occur, causing the battery to discharge over time. I much prefer setting the SOC limit to 80% and charging the bike manually every 60 days.
With very old firmware the SOC shown on the dash would not always update, that was fixed some time around 2019. The pack voltage and cell voltages on the eng screen are always accurate.

does anyone know what the idle, picking my ass current draw is on the bike, it has to be something, there is some computer thingy dingy watching somewhere.  even if that draw is only 5 watts.  that's 120 watts a day, 800 watts a week.  3.2 kw a month.  after say 6 yo 7 months you are in trouble.

I do not know the exact current draw of the PSU's 9V always on circuit. Based on the log files I have examined from bikes with discharged packs, you have about 10 months from fully charged to 0% SOC. 3300mV is the cell under voltage cutoff, below this level the bike will not accept a charge. It is possible to manually charge the battery at this point. 2500mV is the manufactures listed end of life, cells below this voltage should not be charged.

chris, where at in the battery is it's 'name/ser' held at?

Not sure what you mean when you say "name/ser"?

[Pard]

@Demoni, yeah this always made sense to me. 

Charge to 80% if sitting for a while and check on it a few weeks later, rather than having it cycle every day for a micro charge in LPR mode.  My thought was that the on/off cycles will reduce the lifespan of the components for no real benefit if I just keep an eye on the SOC. 

The FaceBook forum has endless debate about what if any balancing is done by LPR mode, but since the battery only balances at the top of the SOC, my understanding is that you gain nothing from LPR unless you cannot monitor the SOC at least very few months.

LPR of course is useless unless the bike is plugged into the charger which is plugged into a power source.

[Specter]

if you had to change out a battery pack, given its married to other parts, you can't just swap battery packs and go right, you have to do some reconfiguration somewhere if i am correct.   where is this identifying data stored at, so instead of having to reprogram it, just take the name tag for lack of a better term from the old battery put it in the new one, so the bike still thinks its the old one and accepts it.  it'd be a lot easier than actually having to rebuild a pack if you had to i think.

aaron

[Demoni]

The FaceBook forum has endless debate about what if any balancing is done by LPR mode, but since the battery only balances at the top of the SOC, my understanding is that you gain nothing from LPR unless you cannot monitor the SOC at least very few months.

Honestly I do not have a full understanding of how (or if) the charge/balancing algorithm changes when a bike is put into LPR mode. It's not a feature that I have used enough to understand.
That said I suspect the same 1hr charge session interruption if there is no change in SOC % safety system would stop the balancing process during normal charging will also kick in when the bike is in LPR. Due to this even if there is some cell balancing happening in LPR it's effectiveness would be limited. Even if the cell are balanced at 80% SOC, that does not mean they will remain balanced when the battery is charged to 100%.

Again LPR mode is not a set it and forget it solution. Due to this I believe manually plugging the bike in every 2 months to charge to 80% is the better option. I had a calendar reminder set every month to remind me to charge all the bikes in our shop to 80%.  Bikes were charged to 100% to ensure the packs were balanced before they were shipped to a dealership or to a customer.

if you had to change out a battery pack, given its married to other parts, you can't just swap battery packs and go right, you have to do some reconfiguration somewhere if i am correct.

The battery packs have no unique identifiers, swapping packs between bikes is plug and play. The only exception to this is the cells used in newer (2024 MY) 21.5 packs used cells that could be charged to a slightly higher voltage (4300mV vs 4200mV), this is what provided the +5% range increase. Firmware and battery parameters would need to be updated if you were to use a pre 2024 battery in a post 2024 bike or vice versa.

[Grauteufel]

The battery packs have no unique identifiers, swapping packs between bikes is plug and play. The only exception to this is the cells used in newer (2024 MY) 21.5 packs used cells that could be charged to a slightly higher voltage (4300mV vs 4200mV), this is what provided the +5% range increase. Firmware and battery parameters would need to be updated if you were to use a pre 2024 battery in a post 2024 bike or vice versa.

This sort of information is why you are so valuable Chris.

[beatmaster]

The bike was stored inside, so temperature was between 10 and 25 °C all the time. Sometimes I checked SoC and it always was 80% as expected...
I got a hint to feed 12V to the 2x2 Molex battery connector and then measure 9 V supply at Pin8 of 16Pin Molex battery connector: 1.2 V. Also 1,2 V at the glass fuse - fuse is intact.
When powered external, bike is booting for about 2 seconds and then breaks. So I can't get in the engineering screen to check SoC/SoH.
The lock is operating, when long pressing the power button (keyless go). The key isn't the issue - without I get the "Key not in range" message.
Would it be possible to feed 9 V external (e. g. at glass fuse holder) and try get a complete boot?

[Specter]

oh thats good to know on the battery pack.  was under the impression it was a coded part like some of the others where you couldn't just swap out w/o changing software to let it know, this is a diff thingamajig or wobulator

aaron

[Demoni]

The bike was stored inside, so temperature was between 10 and 25 °C all the time. Sometimes I checked SoC and it always was 80% as expected.
Would it be possible to feed 9 V external (e. g. at glass fuse holder) and try get a complete boot?

Glad to hear the cause is not a discharged battery. With that ruled out it's almost certainly a PSU issue.
I would suggest not injecting 9V into the bike. If the circuit on the PSU that supplies 9V is damaged it may be shorted. Powering that wire could damage other electronics in the circuit.

When injecting 12v into a bike please make sure you are using a power supply that is current limited (2A). Either use a 12V wall wart supply or a variable voltage power supply.
Normally when I inject 12V into a bike I do the following:

• Remove the tank fairing to allow access to the Charge Manager CM (black box that sits on top of the motor controller / inverter.
• The connector that plugs into the CM has labels for each pin A-F and 1-3.
• Locate F1 and insert a thin probe to allow direct connection.
• Connect 12V+ to the probe and ground to the inverter, battery case or other good ground point.

Oh keyless bikes there is one additional step you need to do to keep the bike from turning off
Locate the 6 pin connector for the ignition (found under the tank fairings near the steering head).

Jumper the orange and purple wires together or insert thin metal probes into the connector to use a alligator clip to complete the circuit.
Bike should turn on and stay on to allow you to access the eng screen.

[beatmaster]

@Demoni: I fed 12V to F1 position of charge manager plug and shortet orange and purple wires of 6pin ignition connector.
When powering, after 3 seconds the bike starts booting by itself, but breaks. Red LED flashes
Ignition button does not start the boot procedure (but locking/unlocking when pressing very long). When pressing for 2 seconds, the red LED flashes one time. When pressing longer, the red LED is on for two seconds.
Did I overlook something?
When I remove ignition short (orange/purple), I can start booting by pressing ignition button, but boot process breaks as before...

[beatmaster]

I tried again without ignition short (orange/purple wires) and had various failures, but one time success and a full boot.
I was able to enter engineering screen. It seems, cells are defective - or is it a BMS module?

[Specter]

its saying 0 percent state of charge, and the low voltage might be what is making everything read goofy.  says a pack volts of 5.2 volts.  very not good if true.

by manual the pack is dead for good if this is true, but, if you are careful you might be able to revive it, very slowly and carefully, and it might come back, and might be useable, but do know it took a major hit.

what i typically do when trying to rezz a cobalt -  lipo or 'angry chem' pack as i call them, is bring it up very slowly to full charge, take a day or three, then bleed it down on a discharge to cycle it, revive it.  bring it up again at 0.5 c, make sure it does so w/o problems, then back down, then bring it back up a 3rd time to it's full charge, see how much power you put into it to do that, then drain it at like 0.2 c to its cutoff point, see what real capacity it has left at that point.   if the batteries seem good, then you may have saved them.  what i would then do next with mine is grid tie them so i could do  a regulated power draw off them, pull at 2 c, 5c and max c for likr 5 seconds, 10 seconds and 30 seconds from a full charge, 80 charge, 50 charge and 30 charge, see how badly you sag it,  that'll let you know if they are still fairly strong or did you wipe them, and if you got a cell thats going to totally dump, potentially reverse, then you know you got a real fire hazard there and need to retire it.

if it was a ferro chem id say run with it, but cobalt, and the lipo types, umm those are the ones that love to dendrite / short and run away, especially after a major excursion.

aaron

[BatteryFitment]

Ouch, that’s not a fun one.

I don’t think I’d start experimenting too much if the bike is completely dark now. I’d probably try the basic checks first, then get Energica or a dealer involved before digging any deeper.

Please update the thread if you find out what caused it. I’d like to know what the proper way is to wake one back up after sitting in LPR for that long.

[Specter]

well, to be totally honest. if this is true and you brought the pack down to basically zero.
the battery manufacturer will tell you, the cell is shot, get a new one, due to liability issues
which means energica will tell you the same thing.. those same liability issues.
can you resurrect them, yes, will it be safe. maybe, no guarantee, which is why anyone at this point, any instructions they give you will be
do this at your own risk.

aaron

[beatmaster]

Some insights:
If the battery pack is near or equal zero, the BMS is down (hopefully not bricked - who could help, if this is the case?)
Feeding 12V from external source (e. g. to F1 pin at charger manager plug) seems not to be sufficient to boot - battery needs to be connected.
Boot did always abort after about 2 seconds. I did a reset after a boot try, while red imobilizer LED was flashing. Maybe this did help or the battery reconnect - the bike now booted one time (all battery plugs connected) and engineering screen was available (see above).
Thank you Aaron and Chris - my battery has to be opened to check cell voltages and to decide further processing.
I'll keep you updated.

[Specter]

in theory, a battery charger should work on it's own, it looks at the battery, talks, then puts the power to it.
if the battery is too low to talk it wont charge.  or another way to look at it.  these chargers work from umm i want to say like 97 volts up to like 255 or something like that.(dont quote me but i think they'll reject the 277 wildleg input, which sucks).  meaning the lowest they can charge is.. well, in theory  97 volts.  they can boost voltage to match the pack but won't buck it. so if your pack is sitting a 5 volts, or 50 volts, its literally too low for them to do.

this wont work here, and it's a real shitty way to revive a dead pack but, can give you an idea...i have a 40kwhr pack that is 4x12 volt cells in series.,  the reason i got them is, they wired them wrong and the heaters are on the battery side of the bms, meaning when it gets cold out, they turn on the heaters, but if the battery volts drop to cutout, don't care, the bitch stays on until they are at zero volts..  anyways.  my 48 charger won't revive a battery, that is a well...non existent thing in lithium world. or supposed to be.  my 12 volt on the other hand, has a recover mode that will put power into anything, but do so current limited.   i hook it to one of the 12 volt batteries and fire it off,  it brings that one battery up and then, the balancer that is also on it, feeds that to the rest of the batteries in the system to bring them up as well.  it hops that 12 volts to each battery..which eventually restores the 48volt system to a voltage that allows me to then put the real charger back on it.

i have used something similar on other packs before,  charge up one leg,  wires and alligator clips work wonders, or pads with neodynium magnets on them, that way you can reach into a pack and clip the power where you need it, on the nickel bus.  charge a P arm and the bms will route it to the others if its a passive, then eventually wake up to charge the battery normally, or if no wake up, its a few days but spihon charge the thing up.  (note this wont work on the energica, it uses a stupid system to balance its batteries which is even fucking worse for the race bikes) but you could charge each arm or segment, individually until you hit them all... in an absolute worse case.

aaron

cough cough.... do at your own risk.