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[Fran K]

I will start with the dissapointments.

I am getting quite a bit less charging speed than the 6.6kw that is in the manual and stated on lots of youtube videos.  I guess none of them actually charged the thing and did some arithmetic after looking at the reciept.  I the s2 livewire's claims are higher than my results which in the session computes to 4.75 kw.  The highest I have got on my own with the evse set for 32 amps at 240 volts is 5.6 kw that was on a long run with the coolant circulating and the fan coming on perhaps for a minute every 7 to 10 minutes so seems it was at the optimal temperature.  I am used to Husqvarna battery chainsaw blower trimmer etc charger qc330 that starts at 330 watts and is around 365 or 370 when it derates near fully charged.  Any idea if I get a battery or plug in hybrid 4 wheel vehicle I will find similar results to claimed.

It is supposed to have a capacity of 8.9 kwh but I most often get 7.5 going off the %added and electricity from the outlet.  That is also what I got the one time I ran it all the way down.  Can-am does answer emails.  I tried to ask what was the wording of the guarantee they have about the battery and they tell me to talk to the dealer.  I don't think anyone there would even understand.  I tried to ask who got sent to school or classes there (at least at KTM my salesman had had some training and was the contact person for electric, KTM doesn't print their warranty either) did not really get a response.

The display and my computations seem to be 52 miles of range.  With the evse set at 16 amps it takes 1:08 (minutes/seconds) to get 1% and 57 or 58 seconds to get 1% at higher settings or at the public charger.  It shows or can be set to show miles remaining.  I noticed a drop of power at 16 miles, then it went to 6 miles left and then to just horizontal lines.  So, 40 miles from fully charged until noticeable drop.

I am not sorry I bought it, heck price adjusted for inflation the 2017 KTM 2.6kwh price was more.  Just starting off here with the dissapointments.

[princec]

These figures are pretty much exactly what I'd expect of a Zero, too, if I scaled them up to the nominal capacity. So ... it'd be hard to be really disappointed when it's more or less in the ballpark of what to really expect. Even so 40 miles is not much use to anyone that doesn't literally live in the middle of an adventure playground

Cas

[Specter]

Out of curiosity, is the guarantee held / honored by the company or the dealer?

i know thats one of the bigger scams in florida with a lot of products like that rhino liner garbage as an example.  The dealer holds the warranty NOT the company that makes the product, so when the dealer goes oob 2 years down the road, soddy choddy, no warranty work for YOU!!

hopefully nothing goes wrong with your battery in that time but might want to clarify that just in case.  Also when buying insurance for your bike, what the companies offer varies insanely wildly, but some offer coverage for 'catastrophic breakdowns' not accident caused... or if you are still paying on it, the full coverage might cover this.  you might want to look into exactly what it covers if you are concerned about the battery.

i know when they totaled my experia last year, they were NOT happy paying out full value, and actually no longer offer replacement value insurance anymore.  it's good to know exactly what is covered by WHO in the event something needs to be done

aaron

[Fran K]

I can say that carrying Can-Am battery products is an additional contract for a dealership.  A club I belong to has a sponsorship with Flamingo Motorsports in Palmer Mass but the guy I talked to in person there not sure what their position is or was, but they said they would not be signing the EV contract.  My 2014 and 2015 Husqvarna batteries are degarded pretty bad out of 4 lights within a minute of putting them on the charger it is 3 lights with the fourth blinking. The newer ones are great.   My 2017 KTM battery was replaced with a better one. Sony vs Panasonic cells. I am not really worried about the cells going bad, but I was hoping to get a clarification similar to if it goes lower than 70% of 8.9kwh we owe you something.  The bike on the showroom floor was sitting at fully charged but the one they delivered to me was at 80% and they had just charged it.

Just from reading on here the dc to dc converter or the on board charger are warrantied for less than the battery and likely more chances to become problematic.  It appears to have what are called flat top 2170 cells.

[TheRan]

These figures are pretty much exactly what I'd expect of a Zero, too, if I scaled them up to the nominal capacity. So ... it'd be hard to be really disappointed when it's more or less in the ballpark of what to really expect. Even so 40 miles is not much use to anyone that doesn't literally live in the middle of an adventure playground

Cas

My 7.2 Zero is actually something like 6.3kWh nominal and I'd have to be riding pretty damn hard to get just 52 miles from it, to get just that from 7.5kWh I'd be pretty damn disappointed.

[Fran K]

40 is about my estimate for where it would where it start to derate.  Hopefully it will improve in warmer weather, but I have had a few of the ktm bikes and Makita and Husqvarna hand held stuff, and meters to measure kw and kwh for must be 5 years by now.  Used them in winter seasons where I would not take a bike out on public roads. The time I ran it until it slowed and barely made it back, the arc of power on the display was real tiny and warning boxes popping up was 65, 66 miles with some added, 0.8144kwh.  Amp up is the provider at the Stafford springs town hall they did not bill me as they thought I had problems.  Going 65 to 70 mph the display shows 4 miles per kwh similar for up hill at 50 or there abouts.  I don't think there was any 65 or 70 in the trip I ran it with the horizontal line in the miles remaining.  Stock wheels and tires likely would be somewhat better with road tires. But plenty of 35mph in there as well.

Another thing is kind of strange it shows the % charge and time remaining to where it is set to stop.  When it shows 100% and no minutes left it is doing 800 watts and it takes about half an hour slowing to 600 watts before it actually stops.  92% is when it shows charge rate slowing with the setting at 16 amps on the evse.

[MVetter]

My 7.2 Zero is actually something like 6.3kWh nominal and I'd have to be riding pretty damn hard to get just 52 miles from it, to get just that from 7.5kWh I'd be pretty damn disappointed.

5.8kWh.

57AH x 102.2vdc (nominal voltage) = 5,825.4Wh = 5.8kWh

[princec]

The general rule of thumb with bikes is they seem to average about 8 miles / kWh in "normal mixed riding" I find. Which is why it annoys me that manufacturers are still quoting totally outlandish ranges (eg. Honda - 80 miles for the WN7 - as if)

Cas

[Fran K]

All I can measure is the AC going in so is to expect that to be what the manufacturer claims as the battery capacity unrealistic?  The KTM has a label on the 2020 to 2023 battery 3.88kwh and at least once I got 4.0something.

[TheRan]

You can expect somewhere in the neighbourhood of 90-95% efficiency, so if we add say 5% to 3880 we get 4074.

[Specter]

90 to 95 efficient, that's being a bit generous ain't it?

Fram. you also have to remember that they'll actually have a bigger battery in there, but claim a bit smaller to give them a bit of headroom, so things going bad, have to go a bit badder-er, before they are forced to go, oh shit, it's bad, yah we gottsta replace it now.

Also remember that unless it's active balancing which few are, it balances by charging, burning, recharging, burning until they level out, so that current - overall kw you are putting in there for your charge session, some of it may be getting burned right back up for the balance out, which can give you a false reading, so you are actually seeing how many kw you used to charge it, not so much how many you actually stored.

Aaron

[TheRan]

90 to 95 efficient, that's being a bit generous ain't it?

Not at all. For example the Delta charger is 93-94%, the Diginow chargers are 93%, I can't find the specs for the onboard 1.5kW Zero chargers anymore but I remember them being 90%+.

Also remember that unless it's active balancing which few are

Now that I doubt. It's easier and simpler to just shuffle current to the required cells rather than discharge them and bleed off that energy as heat.

[princec]

I think the mere process of doing this is wasting a fair bit as heat though. A few % here, a few % there, all adds up.

Cas

[Specter]

TheRan, that is exactly how the Energica balances.  tops off, bleeds down high cells, tops all off, bleeds down high cells, until it gets in range or an hour has passed between hitting recharge threshold, then it just shuts off.  That last part is why sometimes if it's really badly unbalanced you'll have to cycle it, or in extreme cases, cycle over a day or so to walk them back into specs.

Active needs more parts, components, cost more, is heavier, which is probably why they went with passive, it's just easier overall.  Me personally, i would rather shuffle power, but i believe the way that is wired, unless you want to throw a bunch of switches in there, is a constant on tech, and will slowly bleed power down over time, and can also cause grief when temp gradients start happening across the battery due to well, normal operating conditions at times, and they opted for no power leeches, especially when you have it in storage.  Remember, the active acts kind of like a wheatstone bridge and each cell in the pack would need it's own little coil, resistors, transistors, capacitors etc.  That stuff takes up a lot of room, especially in a pack that's already cramped and prone to heat issues.



Aaron

[TheRan]

And Zeros actively balance. If you're able to draw power from individual cells then you're able to divert power to individual cells. The advantage to doing it the way Energica does, and a downside of a Zero, is it can balance the cells at any point without the bike needing to be hooked up to a charger.