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Author Topic: Very interesting development  (Read 15784 times)

Specter

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2026, 09:20:57 PM »

watching  the one video, the guy said, they just picked that voltage because it was the best for drop in and replace tech, which makes a lot of sense.  This implies that it's cells stacked then to make the voltage.  They also said they could make a battery any voltage you needed really, so, ok, it's, stacked.

what is the unit voltage id be interested to know.  one single cell, is it  0.56v   1.5   what is the lowest voltage then, can this battery be?

one thing they did say that makes no sense to me is, the ceramic in between layer, being it's rigid it's hard to bend and shape into the cylindrical cell, so it breaks easily.  why you bending finished ceramic?  mold the shit into the shape you need to fit in the cell, fire it that shape then plug and play, unless he's saying stuff like that to throw other people off on how they actually do it.

Aaron
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Stonewolf

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2026, 10:26:48 PM »

Rather than watching the video from the company themselves how about a video from someone who did a bit more than just read the press release.



I will be properly excited* if it's real but there are A LOT of red flags here.

*excited for someone else to put them in a bike because anything that needs my smartphone just to turn on can get in the bin.
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Specter

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2026, 01:54:26 AM »

That's one of the video's I watched Stone.
So, again - What's the 'unit voltage'

Fully charge in 5 minutes - massive copper to handle that kind of current on a multi kw battery.
100k cycles - for now, lets see what this number slithers down to in another year or so of real use.


here's another company that sells supercaps
https://supercapacitor-energy.com/products/

from their specs,   20k cycles,  100 to 200 amp max current,     
so on one of their faster units you are still charging / discharging at about 2c, so 30 minutes to charge it at max rate.   
Even for their biggest unit the 700 volt 150 kw one - it still only can push 150 amps or about 0.8 c so you are talking an hour and a half ish to charge it.   
to get it at 5 minutes you'd have to push probably 1500 to 2000 amps, on a cable that can handle 1000 volts, (ie thicker insulation, not very bendy, tougher to handle) now you are talking about multiple cables run in parallel per phase / or in this case + / -   so now for your charging cable it now weighs 7 to 8 lbs per foot per phase.  throw on the 30 lb viking connector about the size of a 3 gallon trash can and there you have it.

but lets get back to the original product you mentioned.

the company mentioned the battery can be any shape you want - so ok, stacked, company also mentioned it can be any voltage you want - so again, as I said, it's stacked.  so what is the voltage of one non stacked unit??

the author himself pointed out, ceramic is very difficult to bend which is why these batteries are so complicated, and THAT is my point, why not pre shape the ceramic, you already know what fucking shape you need it to be.  mold it to shape, fire it to harden it into that shape, then put the parts together.   even if you are trying to mold the ceramic into some sort of spiral, you can slide a foil down an untensioned unit, then gently torsion (sp) it, to wind it / tighten it up, and tie it in place.  ceramic will handle a little bit of that kind of gentle movement especially if it was stress relieved upon harden..... anyways. 

in his video, cells in pouch charging 4 volt 270 A     now 300 Amps thru those tiny little cables looks kind of sus to me, but that amp number can easily be spoofed by sliding a decimal or 'oopsie' used the wrong number of turns on the CT.  grabbed the k2 by mistake instead of the k3.
not saying they are cheating but, that kind of current in something that small, imo won't last long over time.

The author is confused because the current does not reduce thru the charge, well that is kind of a point, then he says that's not how you charge a vehicle battery, but actually it kind of IS, you DO push it to about 80 percent  at higher current then taper off the charge. The only reason the current really gets reduced in a car charge below 80 percent is generally due to thermal throttling.

 now on that, both a cap and a battery are going to rise in voltage as they charge up, so holding that volt rock steady is a bit mysterious, and  again imo.   sus.

they claim clean materials and not politically aligned. and no lithium. and safe for environment.

ok, air/zinc.     nickle/maganese ??   hell nickle/iron hybrid maybe, even though that tech is very old.
hopefully not silver, because that is about to get very political.

so, yes, i am quoting from the video you posted, and some other sources.

time will tell though once someone gets their hands on one, an xrf and rips it apart :D
i got the radiation machine, send me the battery / stupor cap and let's do this!!

Aaron




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Stonewolf

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2026, 02:20:37 AM »

Another video suggested they're likely using sodium instead of lithium which makes sense with some of their claims on cost, environmental impact (sort of), and material availability but if so why wouldn't they just say that?

I'd like to say I do think they actually have something but it isn't what they claim. They could have come along with a couple of these claims and people would still be all over it but their full claim is just too good to be true and the company and lack of patents ...

Verge are planning to ship a product in Q1 so they must have something but you can already see that something is off because they halved the charge rate and instead of saying "when you pack it all into the compact space of a motorcycle battery you have to pay much closer attention to thermals" and everyone who actually knows anything about BEV bikes nodding and saying "yes, yes, that tracks" they instead came out with some kind of flap about not wanting to rush peeing ...
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ESokoloff

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2026, 02:55:54 AM »

When assessing a company’s credibility, I look at their infrastructure & I’m not impressed by what I see with Donut Lab
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ehSdsd8ww4yLK64Z8?g_st=ic
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TheRan

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2026, 03:24:06 AM »

Just because they're supposedly able to offer different voltages doesn't necessarily mean it's stacked, if it truly is a capacitor then they just need to vary the thickness of the dielectric.
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Specter

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2026, 05:36:58 AM »

That will only work so far TheRan, once you start putting some volts on, now you have issues with the can it's self, the leads arcing at connection points etc, and the dielectric strength of the separator itself.  They are using carbon maybe doped with some lith as substrate and polypropylene, some use paper or cellulose base as separators / insulators. or even glass/fiberglass.  Can't push that usually past 2 or 3 volts w/o issues.  Supercaps, also the barrier is stupid thin, like angstroms thin sometimes, so there isn't much wiggle room there to play with thicker barriers gives more voltage.  Another issue is thicker separators also gives you more room fort flaws and leaks too.

plus the good ole, thicker separators, = potentially more voltage but that'll give less capicatance overall.  the surface area suffers.
If only it could be that simple.  ;D

Aaron 
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Stonewolf

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2026, 06:16:57 AM »

carbon maybe doped with some lith as substrate and polypropylene

Apparently though they're tight lipped on composition they've been keen to tell people there's no lithium.
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PWM

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2026, 08:51:57 AM »

The Donut Labs battery appears to be a super-duper-electrolytic capacitor because the charge cycle being 100k aligns with state of the art supercapacitor properties and so is the rate and temperatures at which it will charge and discharge with physical constraints becoming the output limit.  The Donut labs association w/ Nordic Nano makes this speculation most probable, IMO.

The verge promo showing (3) modules being utilized is a curious thing suggesting 100V at the terminals for 22kWhr pack?

Verge publishes 196 miles at 56mph w/ 165 lbs rider...this is pretty good for a capacitor...if this was chemical storage one is locked-in on ion energy levels which yields 1.5-4.2V...there is good chemistry at play for sure to serve as a charge/discharge moderator to allow such high energy density to exist if this is just a capacitor...

Bold claims for sure...I bet Verge will not sell w/o NDA at this time.
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Grauteufel

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2026, 08:52:37 AM »

Yeah, I’m supremely skeptical as to the production capacity claims, even if they do have a genuine product. The two companies involved would have less than 100 employees total (Donut, Nordic Nan)
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T.S. Zarathustra

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2026, 01:53:41 PM »

one thing they did say that makes no sense to me is, the ceramic in between layer, being it's rigid it's hard to bend and shape into the cylindrical cell, so it breaks easily.  why you bending finished ceramic?  mold the shit into the shape you need to fit in the cell, fire it that shape then plug and play, unless he's saying stuff like that to throw other people off on how they actually do it.

Aaron
Some Chinese scientists announced couple of years ago that they had succeeded in making ceramics flexible. So that is not the obstacle it once was.
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princec

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2026, 06:58:17 PM »

If this is indeed a capacitor then ... I am genuinely quite terrified to be within 3 feet of it. This is sort of like replacing petrol with nitroglycerine.

Cas :)
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Specter

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2026, 12:35:58 AM »

Failure mode is not going to be a bomb going off taking out your house with it.  That's the kind of hysteria the lame stream would love you to believe but critical failure mode for these, it'll pop and spark and vaporize the point of the short / fault potentially with 1000's of amps, but is very unlikely to blow the can apart.   This is not an electrolytic style cap that goes out with a real hefty bang, so yes you can have some mess and fireworks but it's not going to just absolutely detonate on you.

Do i want to be near one when it goes off, no, but at the same time, you don't need to be hiding in the next county either.  Given it does not have as many chemicals and liquid to spray out, it's fire hazard is most likely less than a current lith cell is as well.

I was initially wondering the same thing on these, what is catastrophic failure mode, and well - it puts on a show, but not as bad as one might expect.  Newer tech for caps, and also safer than what we are used to seeing.

Shorting terminals will give you the big bang and is not nice to the thing, itll tear them up internally, but i was more interested in damage shorts like driving a spike thru one or shooting it so it's not current limited by the wire across it.   I did not see any YT's on that topic, so.. nothing in concrete but from what i have seen, no it's not a bomb

Aaron
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princec

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2026, 12:49:45 AM »

I was more concerned about it deciding to short itself through me than exploding :P

Cas :)
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PWM

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Re: Very interesting development
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2026, 05:52:36 AM »

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/hybrid-supercapacitor

"Hybrid battery supercapacitor is a device that has one electrode to store the charge by the battery using the Faradaic phenomenon and the other electrode to store the charge mainly based on the capacitive process. It was noted the lithium/sodium/potassium/magnesium acts as hybrid-based battery supercapacitors showed large power of about 0.1–30 kW kg?1 of the supercapacitors and greater energy density of about 5–200 Wh kg?1 of the secondary battery. Further, this kind of the hybrid devices has its own superiority due to its stable long-cycle performance and economical cost."

DONUT Labs have stated they aren't using lithium...
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