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[most]

All, can anyone make anything out of the friction markings on my Experia front brake discs? I realized it when I was dismounting the wheels to get new tires. Exchanged the discs 5.000km ago and also . Beginning „warping“ - but haven‘t measured them yet.

So what is your conclusion?
What treatment do you suggest?

[PWM]

IMO - the wear looks good albeit aggressive suggesting metal pad material at play...brakes are wear items and for sport riding, short life is not a major compromise.

Kevlar composition works just as good as metal but drops off significantly in wet conditions and the disc wear is reduced to a more polished less grind but still grabby because they can tolerate the heat.

No idea on how you should proceed 'cept add more regen to your ride settings?

Good luck, sir.

[Specter]

what kind of brake pads do you have? How far down on them are you?  What's your riding style?  You mentioned warping, that's a lot of heavy braking to do that generally.
mine look similar albeit i ride my bikes hard.
there really does not look like anything really wrong with them, looks like you have fun on your bike, but not necessarily race track fun where the 'treating her rough spots' are all friggin day     or are you? Absolutely nothing wrong if you do! These bikes are designed to take that.

brakes will get scritchy like that over time, and a good hard stop or two may do that as well.

are you more concerned with... is this damage??  or  how do i not wear them like this???

high regen, in most normal riding you can get around with barely using your brakes once you master it....although many people find it annoying, because they haven't mastered the little nuances of it, it IS a different riding style.

Otherwise I'd say they look pretty good to me.

Aaron

[most]

Thanks for your replies, guys.
I just returned from the Alps. Passo Stelvio and others, tight serpentines, more sporty ride style without being too aggressive - even though regen was set to highest because of the slope I had to use a lot of mech brake power. I had replaced the pads with the Brembo-suggested aftermarket pads „Performance SA“ 07BB37SA shortly after replacing the discs.

I was asking because I am a bit concerned about the various spots. If you look closely, they differ from the rest of the friction surface in color or wear appearance. Why am I concerned? Because this nether happened so obviously on the old Brembo discs - and I did not change my ride style and also took the bike out to the Alps, so very similar conditions.
So I was wondering if the observed „warping“ (lets be precise and call it axial deflection) is in fact no geometric deflection but the effect of uneven brake pad material somehow sticking on the discs?!?!?
When the tires are changed, I will measure it with a dial gauge…

[jotjotde]

My 50 cents:

I agree that the wear pattern looks spotty. Are both sides looking the same? Are the insides looking the same as the outsides?
Maybe this pattern is a change-over period from the old pads (organic material?) to the new one (sintered) and I am quite sure this will be gone after doing another 5,000 km more or so.

The 'axial deflection'  of my Ribelle's front discs was coming up long before I changed to the sintered pads, so I am not sure if that is the cause.

Keep an eye on it, but no need to sweat if the brakes are doing their job, right?

[TNCreator]

for me, that looks like a disc that got hot, not like abnormally hot tho.
the color spots between the holes are a standard thing on trackdays for example.
if the thickness, free play and feeling are good, I would not worry.

[most]

Again, thanks all for your valuable feedback. Before I changed to SA pads I had the Brembo OEM pads, afaik those are sintered and not organic. Since I changed pads and discs around the same time (max 100km in between), I would expect no further change.

So it all comes down to measuring to see where the wobbly behavior is coming from. I`ll let you know once I did that.

[Specter]

if you are feeling like a pulling sensation, think your rotor may be warped, sometimes it's not necessarily your rotor but your pads that have an issue.  I had that once and it turned out being some shit on my pad, and for some reason it wanted to grab a spot on my rotor so you'd get that pull pull pull as you coasted down with light to increasing moderately brake pressure.  Not sure what it was, i had a hard, like really hard stop when a car pulled in front of me and they quit doing that after that... unless the piss running down my leg when i finally did stop re tempered the rotor they corrected themselves.  My point being, don't always automatically assume it's the rotor, it could be pad's or even both.  Picture some goop slopping on the brakes, maybe brake fluid, shock dribblings, etc, and getting on part of the pad and the rotor.  It changes the chemistry slightly on the pad in that one spot where it soaks in, and the temperament of the rotor in that one spot where it sat.  now each time those two spots meet, you get their signature 'hello sloppy!' every revolution.  You may be able to buff out that spot on the metal, and change a pad and it's good again.  Sometimes you can wear it off with normal use.

Those scratches on your rotor, look like slight rubbing, that also can be normal under circumstances.  I have full floating brakes on my bike, and sometimes when you lean it over a bit, especially slow like when you are turning around in a paddock or driveway, one of the pads will flop loose and lay up against the rotor and you can hear a slight rubbing noise as it rattles along rubbing on the rotor.  Once you get going then tend to go back where they belong.  Looking at the scratches you'll probably see they are superficial mostly, not really digging in.  Also, they are short duration.  If you had a groove in it that went all the way around or halfway around yah that'd be a big concern but those look like normal wear with the type setup you have.  Your pads are not polished to a smooth surface, they are rough, and ceramic if it's in there, is scratchy, you put pressure on your brakes, and sub micron differences in your rotor's true flatness, that little inch part it was sticking out just a little bit and that little grain of ceramic sand on your brake pad, scuffed it ever so slightly as it went by until it burned off due to the friction of the stop.

If they are working and no obvious problems, no damage or leaks, id not worry too much

aaron

[most]

So I got the wheels back and set the front up in my very professional test rig...
The result is 0.2...0.25mm lateral warp.

I have disassembled the pads, cleaned them properly and also washed the discs with brake cleaner. A test ride revealed that the root cause must be the warp.

Big question is why does this happen?

[Specter]

Heat.
you said you ride your bike more spirited.  you need more spirited brakes then.
oem parts are, typically minimal to pass standards, which is for people who don't push their bikes much into their limits, or even nearing them.  Brakes are no exception, especially when you see what some of the higher end stuff costs.  This goes for shocks, forks, everything.

If you are riding your bike more robustly then you need parts that can handle the harsher conditions.  Get better / thicker / possibly even bigger rotors.  yah it's gonna cost more, they know this, it's by design.

Aaron

[jotjotde]

@most: That ingenious way of measuring the warp is worth five stars! 

The cause of the warp could be heat as Aaron already pointed out.
In the first half a year after I got my Ribelle, I did not any 'spirited' riding or long downhill rides for the front discs to see serious use, nevertheless they warped.
Because of this I suspect sloppy fabrication. When manufacturing these discs, maybe stresses were brought into them (forging, stamping, lathing, whatever) which let them spring into a warped form later.

[PWM]

The runout warpage is most certainly due to harsh localized uneven heating versus the heating effect of smooth gradual application of brakes where heat has time to dissipate.

You cannot effect the high inertia resulting from battery mass, both standing and moving, give your brakes a break...apply heavy regen and feather the throttle for cruising efficiency, your brakes will be much happier.

[Specter]

I think he said he did that already PWM but agreed, fully utilizing your regen and you can cut your brake use down drastically.  currently i only use mine for maybe the last few feet of the stop if it's on uneven pavement or a slope so i don't walk 50 feet, the regen handles the rest. Highway stop and go can be a bit tedious though because those clowns want to do hard stops, so its like they climb up to 40 then jam on the brakes, climb stomp, grr.

Even one good hard stop can cause some warpage to your rotor and once it's there it's there right?  I havent looked but besides for machining, which these oem rotors don't have a hell of a lot to begin with, there really is no other way to fix that right?

Given he does ride a bit harder and has fun, id recommend better rotors anyways if he's warping them, and of course better pads too.  just a little bit thicker can eliminate that quite a bit.  I know I have had to do some horrible stops on my ego on occasion, and besides for lightly blue-ing it one time, i never warped a rotor so far, knock on wood.

Also, if you DO ever go on the track or are going to be doing any sort of heavy stop and go riding / racing, better brakes are an absolute must, oem's are NOT made for that kind of repeat heavy use, you will warp the hell out of them and they'll fade real fast once they heat up.  Even before I had everything buffed up, coming down from a 125 run on the Ribelle a time or two and it was already fading towards the end and subsequent stops.  Brake fluid is standard too, not meant for that abuse and that can cause grief as well.

Aaron

[most]

Guys, there‘s something seriously off with the system on Energicas. I had the SS9, then Ribelle. SS9: 1x rotor change under warranty, Ribelle 2x, Experia now 3x. All between 4000-6000km.
In the same time I also ride my BMW R1250R and R1250GS - both even see higher brake usage. And those discs stay flat! And I do have a history of bikes as I am regularly changing my „2nd line“ bikes. With no bike I have seen this behaviour. Plus, I work at a huge Automotive supplier with car and bike brakes in the portfolio where I have lots of experts to discuss the best methods to brake-in new pads and disks, so I would rule out wrong treatment by 99.9%.

And with those latest discs, I moved away from the Brembo OEM stock (you know they’re all the same across all Energica models) to TRW - same make than I was once using for an Honda VFR. No probs on the Honda, same procedure as Brembo on the Experia. And, if I read across various forums and Facebook groups, looks like I am not alone with this issue. By far not!

Those brakes are not from milk and honey, my ride style was as I said more sporty but not too aggressive, already with full regen. They HAVE to stand this treatment! And this is why I posted the pics in the first place - no one relied like they look abnormally over-heated, I got the idea this is just what can be expected.


Does anyone of you have a recommendation for a disc make and model where you did not see warpage even after a longer period?

[jotjotde]

Front discs of my Ribelle were changed last year at 50.000 km against the Brembo 78B408B2.
Now at 80.000 km I am still happy with them. Riding style is sporty (at least I think so) and regen is on weakest setting.
Using the red Brembo pads 07BB37SA.