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Author Topic: How hot is hot?  (Read 10469 times)

Specter

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How hot is hot?
« on: July 20, 2025, 01:27:10 AM »

So, i took the bags off, and streamlined the Ribelle and got my posture tucked in a bit, amazing what difference a bag can make to drag.

anyways, some early am runs before it just got blazing hot in the sun and humidity, very minimal traffic on the interstate, so.. heh.. game on.

considering this thing has the aerodynamics of a brick, i consider 161 pretty good. although im positive the ego will go faster, ive had it at that before and with the fairings and my body position naturally more aero with the windshield and all, yah its gonna do a lot better. still my buddy on his gxr, claims he can do a buck 65, he got the jump on me i have to keep it light starting up so as not to wheelie too bad and gradually pull it up then crank it once you get past 100, but i quickly caught up and passed his ass, so yah, im good :)

anyways, motor temps, while i wasn't really watching too hard, at those speeds you really can't take your eyes off the road for but the briefest of a second, and the front end of the bike is really REALLY light up there too so i don't want to be standing up any and giving any more lean backwards, you pretty much are holding on for dear life as the wind is really trying to take you off and hitting dips in the road and bumps it's drifting over them and a bit of pucker factor going on like oh man don't wheelie me stay on the road. in retrospect i need to pull my elbows in, i had them sticking out as i was basically doing a horizontal pullup on the handlebars it felt like.

motor temp,  i did see 192 degrees after about a minute and a half of wot, battery temp was about half way up the scale as well, not sure what that comes out to,  once i dialed down the speed a bit the motor temp came down pretty quick, the water cooling is no joke, but battery temp crawled up to ehh 65 percent, not touching yellow yet but from experience on the ego, i was right on that line.

what temperature is considered getting really hot on the motor?  i know it's designed for that kind of torture but wondering how hot it can get safely.

also as an fyi, battery burn.  i do a round trip to a destination that is 50 miles round trip, with a good portion highwayish speeds ie 60 mph.  riding normalish i can hit 48 to 50 percent battery burn for 50 miles.  if im running hot, say i can get in 10 miles or more at 100 mph plus, sometimes holding 120 - 130 for a few miles, ill burn about 60 percent of the battery so its actually holding up pretty well but i do have to admit once you start getting down to like 45 percent or so, its really starting to suck it up, though you can still maintain 130s  so overall it's not too bad for what you are doing.

another fyi at those speeds, regen even set to super full on it seems like it limits it, it feels like a lot more pulldown when im at more normal speeds than when im up there but probably that's just because you have so much energy to burn off that fast you just don't realize it.

and another final note, battery percent, your temperature absolutely will change that. charging it and it's all nice and warm / hot and then after sitting overnight and getting a chance to coll down, yah you can some percents on the battery charge,  gotta remember that's driven by voltage mostly and when hit the volts are higher but as it cools down the voltage will drop a bit and that will make your percent go down a bit too.  although the bike does seem like there is a little bit of temp compensation in there it's not perfect.  i bring this up, because i know some folks get concerned and anal about charge percent and just want to point out again, there is a lot of subjectiveness to it, it's not hard science, many things slush it aroundf.


aaron
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ElectricRebel

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2025, 01:45:19 AM »

Hay Aaron,
AFAIK the BMS used is from Lithium Balance/Sensata.
I've looked more into it and those bms calculate by Columbia counting, it gets reset to a predetermined value Everytime they get charged to 100%. The thermal compensation works at least in my bike, never loosing more than 2-3% after initial charge with hit battery and then tucking her away for the night. Most of the times the battery cools from 45ish degrees C to 15-25°C depending on ambient temp. When battery is above 30° I mostly get 54Ah of capacity, when 35 ajd above the 55Ah the V2 battery's have. When it gets colder it sometimes gets down to below 50Ah....(Mostly mine starts with 51-53Ah when outside temps are between 10-20°C).

Cheers
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2020 Energica EVA Ribelle

Specter

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2025, 01:56:52 AM »

thank you for that electric rebel.  im having a slight battery issue i need to address,  it's been a while since i topped it to 100 percent, normally ok with the 98 or where it stops since im riding the bike a lot and don't want to continually 'stuff it' every night, but probably should do a full balancing as my spread is getting a bit wider.  even with columb counting, that's not entirely accurate either as the batteries capacity changes with temp too... although a good romp can bring temps back up so it does give you best bang for the buck.  ive noticed with my ego on the track that cahrging on cold days it can get a bit squirrely until i get some heat into the battery pack and temps in the 80s or so .vs. 38 degrees :)

wild temp swings like that can also add to unbalance as the inner batteries are not loosing the temp like the ones against the walls / frosty outside are.  i can't remember if the eng screen tells temps in the battery from a few locations or just a general.  i usually just go with an ac charge and let it do it's thing overnight vs fast change when it's this hot out, if im not  at the track no need to push a hard charge although tbh with 20 minute ride sessions, even 30 amps into the battery is plenty to top it back off for the next hours run.  being im an older fart, especially later in the day when it's hot out you've been sweating your ass off, i don't often make the entire 20 minute session.  ill go however many laps and when i find i am starting to make mistakes, or am slowing or feeling hot, that's it, time to go in.
aaron
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FlyMig

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2025, 12:35:22 AM »

I would leave the bike on charger without the limiter and most I have been getting is 95 or 96%.  Idk why these are having such a hard time getting to 100.  It seems like charger times out way too early... idk really
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Specter

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2025, 12:52:03 AM »

it's something with the way the balance works,  it'll charge the pack up, when the highest cell hits it's setpoint  ill say 3.720 volts it cuts charging and then goes into balance where it bleeds the top cell down to a certain point, (i do not know how far down for that) then start charging the whole pack up again once it hits that point, it does this to walk the difference down, so that by constantly taking from the top, and charging all ,it's bringing the lowest cells up until it's happy with them then it'll call it 100 percent and be happy.

ideally you'd love the delta to be zero but that won't happen.  50 mv is acceptable, about 80 you may start seeing messages and at 100 you'll see a more urgent message that you need to goto a complete balance now, in other words bring it to 100 percent to reset?? it.

back to topic, as more and more batteries are at the top voltage, it takes longer for them to drop down to the recharge threshold to kick the 'start charging again' back on.  if the bike goes an hour without a discharge / charge cycle it will shut down and stop the charging.

they make timers, like for greenhouses, it's an programmable on / off timer,  set it for like an hour 5 minutes or hour 15 minutes on and 3 to 5 minutes off.  that way it will interrupt the charge, which breaks the timing cycle, the bike shuts down then when you turn charge power back in,it restarts with a charge cycle.  this forces it to start charging again, because when it shuts down, it won't restart until power has been removed from the charger.

this is the one i use.  find something similar or in your part of the world.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115358807623

i mentioned this in a previous topic but a few bad charges,  ie a fast temp change like it goes from 85 degrees or 100 degree battery pack from riding and now it's 30 degrees out,  ok the outer batteries against the pack walls are at 30 but the inner ones that are a few deep are kind of insulated and may still be at 70 degrees.  This 40 degree difference is very significant in what the idle voltage of them will be,  now charge the entire pack at that temp difference and the voltages will get whacky, and can throw things off,  because 3.27 may be full charge at 80 degrees but 3.26 may be full charge at 40 degrees.  so what is it's charge  really at?  can' t really tell because the batteries are all at diff temps....  ask me how i learned this one  8)

that on off timer can take a few days in really bad unbalance situations, i had my bike at one point because i was ignoring the nag and just kept going, it'd go into balanxe at about 76 to 78 percent charge... but for most, overnight or a second day should top you off and keep everyone happy and healthy

aaron
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flynnstig82r

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2025, 03:03:44 AM »

Wouldn’t setting TC to 1 cure the concerns about power wheelies? Are you riding without traction control to build your skills or because it’s faster that way?

Also, what GSX-R did your buddy have, a 750?
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2007 Yamaha FJR1300 AE

Past bikes:
2020 Energica SS9 13.4 kWh
2017 Zero SR 13.0 kWh
2011 Ducati Multistrada 1200 S Touring
2016 MV Agusta Turismo Veloce 800
2012 Yamaha FZ6R

Specter

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2025, 03:13:19 AM »

the race software does not have traction control just abs.

also setting your tc too sensitive on a regular bike can really raise hell with your regen if you have rough / crappy roads around you.  ive seen on washboard or really coarse roads the tc having fits if it's too low.

Aaron

edit, it's an older bike i want to say 2009 or 2011 or around then it's a 600
« Last Edit: July 21, 2025, 03:18:43 AM by Specter »
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Specter

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2025, 03:26:47 AM »

let me add another tidbit that i was also testing.

i was having issues with the speedo being off, however changing the sprocket ratio which you can do in the settings menu to 15 front and 47 rear seems to have nailed it dead on with 190 tires on back.   it's reading within 1-2 mph up to 140 ish that i seen, as compared to gps / satellite using high precision / high polling gps.

for those that may be having issues with their speedometers being off, try those settings on your bikes and see if they help your accuracy.

aaron
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flynnstig82r

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2025, 04:33:02 AM »

the race software does not have traction control just abs.

also setting your tc too sensitive on a regular bike can really raise hell with your regen if you have rough / crappy roads around you.  ive seen on washboard or really coarse roads the tc having fits if it's too low.

Aaron

edit, it's an older bike i want to say 2009 or 2011 or around then it's a 600
Interesting. I never had the TC freak out on my SS9, but I have never pushed the limits. I can understand not wanting TC on if it does that. The worst road I took her down was an old mining road just north of Placerville with DonTom a few years ago, which wasn’t even a bad road. The only sketchy part was the two-track bridge where we couldn’t let our front tires go into the cut-out in the middle, so we had to ride the outside line where a car’s right tire was supposed to go, and without scraping our bars on the guardrail. It was a tight fit, but a very picturesque route from the Northern California Butler map.
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2007 Yamaha FJR1300 AE

Past bikes:
2020 Energica SS9 13.4 kWh
2017 Zero SR 13.0 kWh
2011 Ducati Multistrada 1200 S Touring
2016 MV Agusta Turismo Veloce 800
2012 Yamaha FZ6R

Specter

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2025, 08:43:59 AM »

 you'll notice it on an acceleration ,it'll blip the red lights and cut down your power and kind of cycle that.  on braking it'll blip the tc red lights and your regen will goto hell, as it turns it off to try to get control back.  when regen gets shut down, often times it won't start coming back up until several seconds later or even make you wait until you've come to a complete stop to i guess 'reset' it's issue with your conditions.   i've found just turning it up a notch from like 2 to 3 can fix that when it gets buggy.

think roads where there is a lot of construction and they got sand / silt and shitty crap on them that lets tires scritch and scratch along, now put that on a road that hasn't been paved in probably a decade or two and welcome to the boonies of jacksonville.

Aaron
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FlyMig

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2025, 01:45:29 AM »

it's something with the way the balance works,  it'll charge the pack up, when the highest cell hits it's setpoint  ill say 3.720 volts it cuts charging and then goes into balance where it bleeds the top cell down to a certain point, (i do not know how far down for that) then start charging the whole pack up again once it hits that point, it does this to walk the difference down, so that by constantly taking from the top, and charging all ,it's bringing the lowest cells up until it's happy with them then it'll call it 100 percent and be happy.

ideally you'd love the delta to be zero but that won't happen.  50 mv is acceptable, about 80 you may start seeing messages and at 100 you'll see a more urgent message that you need to goto a complete balance now, in other words bring it to 100 percent to reset?? it.

back to topic, as more and more batteries are at the top voltage, it takes longer for them to drop down to the recharge threshold to kick the 'start charging again' back on.  if the bike goes an hour without a discharge / charge cycle it will shut down and stop the charging.

they make timers, like for greenhouses, it's an programmable on / off timer,  set it for like an hour 5 minutes or hour 15 minutes on and 3 to 5 minutes off.  that way it will interrupt the charge, which breaks the timing cycle, the bike shuts down then when you turn charge power back in,it restarts with a charge cycle.  this forces it to start charging again, because when it shuts down, it won't restart until power has been removed from the charger.

this is the one i use.  find something similar or in your part of the world.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115358807623

i mentioned this in a previous topic but a few bad charges,  ie a fast temp change like it goes from 85 degrees or 100 degree battery pack from riding and now it's 30 degrees out,  ok the outer batteries against the pack walls are at 30 but the inner ones that are a few deep are kind of insulated and may still be at 70 degrees.  This 40 degree difference is very significant in what the idle voltage of them will be,  now charge the entire pack at that temp difference and the voltages will get whacky, and can throw things off,  because 3.27 may be full charge at 80 degrees but 3.26 may be full charge at 40 degrees.  so what is it's charge  really at?  can' t really tell because the batteries are all at diff temps....  ask me how i learned this one  8)

that on off timer can take a few days in really bad unbalance situations, i had my bike at one point because i was ignoring the nag and just kept going, it'd go into balanxe at about 76 to 78 percent charge... but for most, overnight or a second day should top you off and keep everyone happy and healthy

aaron

Thank you Aaron,  that helps a lot!
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jotjotde

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2025, 02:24:37 PM »

@Aaron: When pushing the bike, I see battery symbol going from green to yellow. Then the regen is switched off - symbol gets yellow and blinking similar to when SOC is > 95 %.
Pushing more results in battery symbol going red and bike is severely restricting power (eco mode?), not nice when you are trying to overtake someone. When your SOC is at 10 % this comes quite quickly.
Do you see similar behavior with your bike(s)?
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Specter

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2025, 06:31:51 PM »

what percent charge are you at when this happens?
typically it should not turn yellow on the normal software until you hit 40 percent, and i believe red was under 20 percent.

yes at 40 percent your overall power and accel is limited pretty well.  one oddity i have seen is, from 40 to 30 it's kind of grannyish like you said, from 30 to 20, the bike won't take off like a demon but seems like it has much more accel than 30 to 40, which is odd considering.  i can still overtake someone fairly well when in normal software which was surprising.
once you hit 20 percent, it will hit, i want to say like street mode 112 mph but the acceleration is very restricted, as you said it can be tedious overtaking someone.  you will eventually get speed but not super hard accel.  under 10 percent it's basically in granny mode, the bike is not trying to pass people, win races, in it's mind it's just trying to get you home, or at least until the next charging station. your speed is limited and your acceleration is very limited.  Do not quote me on this i have not validated it yet but i think it's shooting for a voltage level... give him what you can but do not drop pack below xx volts. so it throttles and goes real easy on the battery trying to stretch it out as long as possible.

at that low of a power level, the battery chemistry is near it's end as well, and current really impress' a drag on it,  instead of, lets say, being able to make 400 amps, the battery can now only make like 80 amps... yet it still takes the same amps to go xx speed.  this will cause your battery voltage to sag very heavy , instead of maybe seeing a few volt sag, you may be seeing a 10 volt sag, because of the weakened chem.  This makes things worse, the power is even less, so now it wants more amps, meaning more current etc... you will very easily get into the voltage cutout zone on the battery.  When these batteries discharge, they have a small curve, that picks up in the like last 15 percent of discharge, then will fall off a cliff volt wise.  so the volts will crash very easily and quickly when near the end.

the regen switching off, this seems counter intuitive, however i think is an artifact of the amp limiting in affect due to your low soc,  it minimizes amp flow, it don't care which way.  in reality unless you have heat issues you want  those amps back in the battery.  if the battery is at its last few percent though, you don't want to go slamming it, you want to walk it up a few percent then load it up with current, if something is going to go wrong, that's one of the places it will happen and being discharged that low and hitting it hard can be very harmful to them.

the racing software, you don't see any programmed power drop, but you will see the laws of physics kick in.  If the battery is at 340 volts and you swing the throttle, it's taking off like a scalded cat and you better be holding on,  if you are at 20 percent charge and it's now only at like 280 volts, well that's about 30 horse you lost there, so yes it's going to be slower to romp but don't let that fool you you better be holding on.  of course your battery is also, less able to pump tons of amps, it may only max at 300 amps now, instead of the original 400 limit, so that is another 40 lost etc thing.

 it's designed to win races, and is not going to restrict power except to prevent you from setting the battery on fire.  Basically thermal is the only cap you got. it WILL of course not let you over discharge it either as that also is dangerous.

The road package is designed for longevity, to protect your battery, and to get you from point A to B.  Another thing to keep in mind, an Energica stuck on the side of the road because you ran it dry is embarrassing too, they'll try to get you home!  hence the last ditch walk mode etc :)

The short answer, i do see something sort of similar, but for different reasons, which is why i explained it so you hopefully understand the differences better.  it wont purposely limit my power but does go down.

aaron
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Specter

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Re: How hot is hot?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2025, 11:33:40 PM »

So i was out playing around yesterday.  probably the worst day of the year so far,  temp was 100 - 101 degrees with the wunnerful florida humidity.

The good thing, I got a lot of quality time to play in the wot zone and wiggling back and forth in there about ehh 10 to 20 percent.  Maybe it was just me but it seems like wot, the bike goes, but if you back off a little, it backs off  just a little, but there a spot about 95 percent or so throttle where it seems like it actually kicks it harder than wot does.

All things considered, you would think the bike would go faster at higher temps, because the battery chemistry, voltage bla bla, but seems to not be quite true.  I was having difficulties hitting much past 150.  When it's more normal temp out, in the 80s lets say, seems there is quite a bit more power in the final power zone and I can push in the 60s on occasion.  motor hit 235 degrees with water temp about 185.   As soon as I let off the throttle a bit though that temp came right down.  That liquid cooling is some serious shit, wow efficient!!

All in all i did about 16 miles in triple digits, probably running 110 120 as a base and the battery temp never really went much past 60 percent of the temp bar.  Interestingly enough  i was expecting to destroy the battery percent left, but once you hit your speed and are, well, coasting if you can call it that, the amps really drop a bit.. unless you are just at the very top end and just wringing every watt out of it.   120 is very manageable on the battery and 15 miles pulled maybe 25 to 30 percent off the battery.  That will NOT be linear, once you drop below say 50 percent she's gonna start tanking pretty fast.  Another thing, you can still hit significant speeds but it just takes longer,  even at 26 percent battery left, one last, lets just see what she got. i hit 130's.  It took a bit to get up there, acceleration is not lightning fast anymore but the power to hit and hold is is still there, just not as fast.  Instead of hitting 130 in what.. 10-15-20 seconds ,it may have taken 45 or so to finally tickle it but the bike did hit.

i can't wait to get my Ego back, i know that bike will go a lot faster, the aerodynamics are so much better than the ribelle but geez, the ribby is just so much more fun to be honest,  it's an easier ride, but not optimum if you are looking to win races.  Even when you are crunched down on the ribelle you are still up in the windstream a bit and that big honking window is not super helpful... let alone the square front :D 

Chris, can i hook a data logger to the bike and download data on the fly.  lets say i wanted to do a run and graph speed .vs. amps or variables that are available onthe engineering screen.  Can i hook an obdc to that and pull live data or would having something talking to the bike while running really raise hell with stuff?  im really curious on amp draw on acceleration .vs nearing target speed, and gliding down, and voltage drops .vs. battery remain capacity and temps type thing...

btw running that hard takes its hit on the chain too, gonna be replacing that soon here. it's stretching out a bit.

aaron
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