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[EsseEsse]

The entire motorcycle industry faces significant headwinds as being discussed across this forum. But LVWR's deliveries for the first quarter were brutal at only 33 bikes with an average ticket of around $12K. That's not a sustainable business. HD said they're cutting LVWR off from financing other than what they've already promised and that LVWR may seek outside capital.

[Richard230]

Good luck finding outside capital for an electric motorcycle company in this current economy. 

[Curt]

Electric motorcycles aren't as popular as they ought to be. When I ride mine, I can't imagine being without. I hate getting on my noisy, smelly, high maintenance gas bikes now. To me, it's worth a big premium.

Harley fans are willing to pay, but they actually prefer the noise and smell, so LiveWire never had a market. It was obvious and foreseeable, hence the investment fraudsters spun off LVWR in a SPAC scam to recover cash from rich dummies.

I don't think slow sales has anything to do with the economy. Few people have an e-moto, for one of four reasons. They aren't into motorcycles, they can't afford the high cost, they have no idea what they are missing, or they are basically insane.

Electric cars, too. The market is fully saturated. Anyone who wants one and can afford it has already gotten one and is likely to milk 10 years out of the investment. I totally love mine but recognize it's kind of a horrifically wasteful luxury boondoggle.

[DonTom]

Harley fans are willing to pay, but they actually prefer the noise and smell, so LiveWire never had a market. It was obvious and foreseeable, hence the investment fraudsters spun off LVWR in a SPAC scam to recover cash from rich dummies.

Certainly not always. I don't care about who makes what, it is the model, not the name I care about. I have zero brand loyalty. But I hated every Harley I ever rode until I took a ride on a Road Glide Ultra. I love the feel of it. It's not a nut shaker at all, very unlike all other Harleys I have ridden, with its larger frame and new M8 engine. But the clutch can get very tiring in traffic. The last time I was stuck in traffic with my Road Glide--in Reno--unlike here in CA where lane-splitting is legal, the HD made wish I was on an electric--even if it were a LW! So there are still exceptions.


I was very interested in the LW until it came out with the specs. I still took a test ride. I cannot stand the thing, even though I usually prefer electric cycles and I own five of them. But what I do not like about the LW is a somewhat long list, but the list starts with no reverse, no touring luggage, no level two charging.

And I was not impressed with my LW test ride.

Energica is a much better deal, IMAO.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[hiura]

Absent breakthrough technology for batteries to become lighter, more dense and faster charging, the only extant market for EV motorbikes is for city commuters. Wishing otherwise trying to manifest anything not in alignment with current physics/reality is delusional.

The Livewire offers nothing superior by any metric, nor do any of the other high dollar vanity projects/vaporware. In Asia, Yadea, Vinfast and a few other companies have sales, but all for city commuting (50cc-150cc) and still not one yet is financially solvent based on cash flow and sales. All still rely on government subsidies, rebates and low/no-interest loans to remain afloat. The market has spoken.

Premium EV motorcycles are at best playthings for the affluent which is a small market to begin with. Nearly everyone (or everyone actually) here is interested in EV motorbikes, but the market is screaming loud and clear that what is offered at the performance level/range provided as of today at the price points being charged is not a viable profitable proposition.

They are reliant on battery suppliers and the current capacity this is possible today for people who have houses or apartment complexes that allow safe home charging....often still from polluting sources of energy making ev cars and motorbikes more virtue signaling status symbols rather than anything practical or truly making a difference for the environment. Too many years have passed for the propaganda of man-made climate change being an imminent existential threat and the only solution is for ev vehicles combined with inflation and economic uncertainty to sway the masses. 

In many ways outside of ev motorbikes, the world as it is not as we wish it to be. Livewire was always DOA no matter how cool it is and I would love to own one.   

[Specter]

one thing the electric might have going for it is, bring your 115 v charger with you,  if you are just stopping for a sandwich or a few drinks with the buddies, topping off at each stop will pretty much get you thru the day.  you actually have to be doing a lot of riding.   mixed mode, street, highway, town roads, i can still get 200 miles out of a single charge.  if you can plug it in to even just 115 volts in the us... an hour charge, that gets you another 20 miles, plenty room for the next stop, next beer, snack, drawing etc etc.

besides range on the battery, the charging time is a bit of an issue.  but lets be honest.   how many have been on rides with a group.... that 5 minute gas stop always turns into 35 minutes or more, as everyone cycles thru the gas pumps, gets their snacks, their soda's, so on and so forth, then bubba's bike won't start, ok that's another 10 minutes,  everyone ready to go.. oh wait,  biker bitch number 3 has to tinkle now... there goes another 10 minutes.  with a bike like the energica where you can put 75 amps into it at full battery voltage.  that's 100 more miles right there.  so with a little foresight it's NOT THAT TERRIBLE.  The im in a rush, i want everything in 2 minutes crowd are the only ones really complaining about that, however it would be nice if there were more stations.

hopefully a deal can be worked with Tesla, so that it'll let us charge on their network with the adapter.

i don't think the market is saturated right now,  many people would like an e vehicle, but price is one thing, and charging is another.  with everyone so impatient, the thought of sitting 20 minutes to charge, for someone who's parakeet mind has been trained in 30 second tic tard video time frames, is unthinkable.

perhaps focus on different metrics in the marketing strategies.   it has 200 - ?? range, unless you are travelling across the state / countey that is plenty of time.  you don't want to wait half an hour to charge, fine. you don't have to, you charge at home, slowly overnight.  now there is no lines, no waiting, the bike is secure in your own garage, driveway etc, and slow charging .. longer life, better balancing, don't need stupid expensive chargers, and can also be a lot cheaper than say .. some tou or demand charged customers.  Curently charging is kind of an after thought in marketing,  move it's priority up in the message, focus more on the ease at home, it lets you get home so you DONT need a gas station.

maybe you lease the battery instead of buying it.  ok, it clamps onto the bottom of the vehicle sort of like a forktruck or equipment battery does.  you pull in with empty battery, it jacks it down and out, rolls in a charged battery, jack it up, and clamp down.  there you go full charge time 5 or 10 minutes. maybe have an external like anderson plug for plug in / out or something.  now the empty battery can be put on a charger to go to the next person pulling in.  this could actually work and keep things a bit cheaper too.  it'd take some engineering but if anyone can figure it out it'd be tesla.

we can make this work.

aaron

[flynnstig82r]

Absent breakthrough technology for batteries to become lighter, more dense and faster charging, the only extant market for EV motorbikes is for city commuters. Wishing otherwise trying to manifest anything not in alignment with current physics/reality is delusional.

The Livewire offers nothing superior by any metric, nor do any of the other high dollar vanity projects/vaporware. In Asia, Yadea, Vinfast and a few other companies have sales, but all for city commuting (50cc-150cc) and still not one yet is financially solvent based on cash flow and sales. All still rely on government subsidies, rebates and low/no-interest loans to remain afloat. The market has spoken.

Premium EV motorcycles are at best playthings for the affluent which is a small market to begin with. Nearly everyone (or everyone actually) here is interested in EV motorbikes, but the market is screaming loud and clear that what is offered at the performance level/range provided as of today at the price points being charged is not a viable profitable proposition.

They are reliant on battery suppliers and the current capacity this is possible today for people who have houses or apartment complexes that allow safe home charging....often still from polluting sources of energy making ev cars and motorbikes more virtue signaling status symbols rather than anything practical or truly making a difference for the environment. Too many years have passed for the propaganda of man-made climate change being an imminent existential threat and the only solution is for ev vehicles combined with inflation and economic uncertainty to sway the masses. 

In many ways outside of ev motorbikes, the world as it is not as we wish it to be. Livewire was always DOA no matter how cool it is and I would love to own one.

100% agreed. It’s important to listen when the market is speaking. As enthusiasts, we see things a lot differently than most. We know why we like electric motorcycles, and we believe that if others could see what we see, a lot of them would like EMs too. But when the market signals that the share of people willing to take the plunge isn’t growing anymore and hasn’t grown for multiple years running, we have to set our expectations accordingly.

The premium segment is showing itself to be saturated right now, and only major technological improvements are going to change that. EMs are good city and commuter machines, but so are automatics like Honda’s NC750X DCT and scooters like a Yamaha XMAX or Piaggio BV 400. These all get fantastic gas mileage, have built-in storage, and are priced much more favorably. I’d rather have an electric, but most people are going to go with gas. The only part of the market where electric technology is fully competitive with gas is with off-road machines, and the Stark Varg’s strong sales show that the market knows it, too. I predict their dual-sport will sell decently, but not great, because once people expect to ride it on the road, they’re going to want more range at a lower price than technology currently allows. When it’s a pure dirt bike that you throw in the back of a truck, you don’t need long range, and the gas bikes in that segment don’t have it, either.

In spite of Kawasaki’s dud, I still think a properly-executed hybrid sport-tourer/ADV could be the way forward in the premium space. It would have to be designed very carefully, but the combination of low-end torque, instant throttle response, high MPG, and long range could be very compelling, and it wouldn’t necessarily be much more expensive to make than a traditional ICE powertrain in the ~1300cc category. At some point, electric motors and batteries will be so ubiquitous that OEMs would almost be crazy not to give their machines a little e-boost. Pure battery-EV motorcycles will probably plateau for the next 5 years or so, especially if Energica isn’t rescued. I can’t really see another manufacturer putting out anything to equal the Experia for at least 5 years, much less surpass it. By 2035, though, I think we’ll start to see premium battery bikes have the kind of success that Stark is having in the dirt segment, and mid-range 300-800cc equivalents will be the toughest nut that is the last to crack due to the challenge of delivering a big battery for under $10k USD.

[princec]

Fact is, the Dacia Spring is £15k. Why can I buy a car - with a massively larger battery - for the same price. It ain't the cost of the batteries. Or even economies of scale - I bet the Spring doesn't exactly fly off the shelves.

All of these bikes cost twice what they're worth. That goes for Zero and BMW as well, and you can see it immediately in the second-hand prices.

Cas

[szczur333]

Fact is, the Dacia Spring is £15k. Why can I buy a car - with a massively larger battery - for the same price. It ain't the cost of the batteries. Or even economies of scale - I bet the Spring doesn't exactly fly off the shelves.

All of these bikes cost twice what they're worth. That goes for Zero and BMW as well, and you can see it immediately in the second-hand prices.

Cas

exactly

harley davidson livewire was release on 2019-2020 so batteries cost more back then, livewire one price drops to 22k from 30k, and it was released in 2021, from 2021 to 2025 batteries cost, drop significantly


I dont know much about S2, but why for example they can't make more software updates for ELW and ONE ?

There are some little things which can be adapted from ZERO/ENERGICA software

[Specter]

you can't just adapt (steal) ideas from others software without the potential for some pretty big lawsuits.
why are the prices so high?  simple, they have not sold a shit ton of them yet so you are still paying off the R and D, just like when you buy a snazzy new computer, the top 2 or 3 speeds are priced stupid high.. you pay for that performance, that cutting edge tech
the older models are cheaper per mhz so to say, that tech been paid for already 6 months ago.
there are always those who have to have the very top, right now now NOW,...and they make them pay for it 

bikes are no different.. they just have not sold enough yet to pay for it so they are still high.

aaron

[princec]

Again I find myself thinking, how are the R&D costs quite so high?
And again I note that KTM can kick out the 390 Duke for £5k. That's an entire motorbike, also fitted with an engine, exhaust, gearbox, injectors, etc, which surely cost at least half of the value of the bike. It should be possible to produce a rolling chassis for under £1500. Are they still saying that we've got to pay £15,000 for a battery, electric motor, and a controller? But I can buy an entire car for £15,000, with a battery twice the size, and onboard charging. What gives?

If the manufacturers want to crack open this market they've got to get a whole lot smarter. These bikes must be produced at roughly price-parity with ICE equivalents or they are an utterly uncompelling proposition. Every advantage EV bikes have over ICE bikes is perfectly balanced by the paltry range and poor charging. To be a viable alternative they have to actually be an alternative - not a massive compromise for the well-heeled.

Cas

[Motoproponent]

Well, like all of you, I think EMs are the bees knees. Here in California it is, without a doubt, the best way to get around and in the absence of riding seasons it is a year round option. Lane splitting and plentiful moto-only parking and toll discounts etc...

I realize though tat I am the minority. Not only among motorcyclists in general but in EM owners specifically.

One thing to consider when wondering why electric motos cost so much, is that the companies all started making these machines years ago with investor cash. We're not just paying for the bikes we get now, as fully realized machines....we're paying for quarter after quarter of negative profits and paying back the venture capital that got these machines to market.

Dacia has been around for 10 years longer than Energica and has a lot more sales under it's belt. Probably has a lot more "in-house" assets to rely on to get a new electric model to market rather that starting a company with a whole new thing.

I think the future is either Verge or Honda. Because Donut Labs can be a separate revenue stream for Verge (or the other way around depending on who is a subsidiary of whom) , like Energica Inside could have been if the company persisted. Honda has the resources to tap into the bleeding edge that would make the kind of bike we want possible for less than a bazillion dollars. PLus they do some weird and expensive shit sometimes. Like the Honda Rune and Asimo. They have the deep pockets to roll the dice more than other moto OEMs.

[princec]

Gotta remember why Honda have so much cash: the C90 and its many siblings have been an enormous cash-cow for decades. Zero should maybe be taking a leaf out of this book and trying to get some credible competition out at the low end, eg. Super Soco - which could subsidise the larger bikes until they hit a point where they start selling on merit rather than enthusiasm and dreams.

Cas

[szczur333]

you can't just adapt (steal) ideas from others software without the potential for some pretty big lawsuits.

yes, but I mean basic/normal stuff, like reverse gear/low speed gear, showing amp/power of charging, end of charging from lcd, engineering menu etc

as I have energica first and now also livewire its a few little things which annoys me sometimes