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[KuRi]

Hi!

I have some questions about the 17.3 kwh battery, and maybe you can help me, thanks!:

- Zero claims a nominal capacity of 15.1 kwh, but the bike allows to charge to 110%. Is it 110% equal to 15.1 kwh? Then when charging to 100% you are only charging 14kwh?
- If I charge at a constant 2.2kwh (that is what the bike says), it should take 6,8 hours for a fully 110% charge? and then 6.3 hours for a 100% charge?

Thanks!
Regards,
Luis.

[Specter]

Luis, charge times typically tend to take a bit longer than just the simple math implies it would.
As the batteries get to the top they reduce their amps to get a more realistic volt reading on the cells and then start balancing, where they put a little current in so they can control better where it goes to keep all the separate battery cells at the same voltage.
I have seen it take sometimes an hour more to charge because of balancing than just the full charge times x = charge time you will figure out using max numbers.

Anything over 100 percent, id not be too keen to keep going there, it will only serve to shorten your overall battery life.
if you have a long trip and those few extra miles between charges would be beneficial, then yah do it, or say once every few weeks do it to balance the battery to keep it in peak condition, but topping off every single time IMO is not necessary and can actually speed along degradation of the battery.

Aaron

[KuRi]

Thanks Aaron,

the question about 110% is not because I want to charge to full each time. The question is about what range to expect when charging to 80,90 or 100%. I had a DSR 2020 where the range was very predictable as well as charge times.

However with the new DSRX, the range when charging to 100% is more or less the same I had with the DSR 2020 at 100%, so I would like to know if I am using "only" 14 kwh when not charging 1o 110%.

When charged to 100%, the new DSRX shows a range of 110-120km which looks like a very low number. I am driving 80% highway at 110kmh.

Regards,
Luis.

[Specter]

Without actually seeing the software, sometimes a BMS will set the range a little bit low if you did not do a full charge.  A full charge lets it see and re calculate the true min-max  if you consistently fail to bring it up to max so it can see it, it will drift based on inputs from past driving histories, etc and wheedle it's self down.  Eventually you may get error messages about balancing like the Energica will do to you.  sometimes if it is severe enough it will want you to do a full cycle, ie take it down to zero, then back to 100 percent so the bms can totally reset itself and say THERE,  NOW I got good numbers, and then go from there.

Also know that the lower your percentage goes down, the faster your range will go down as well, it needs more amps to go the same speed because the battery voltage is lower so less power.  The extra current draw will further suppress voltage and further make it look like the battery is depleting even more.

since so many things can affect range, temperature, battery age, condition, terrain, traffic etc etc. and range can vary from bike to bike, brand to brand etc,  it's best, especially if this is a route you normally take.  do one round trip, charge it paying attention to how many kw you put in.   repeat this a few times keeping tabs on the number, then you have an average.  ok it takes 7 kw to go 70 km.   so my range is 10km / kw  as example.  from there you can look at your battery and see about how much range you have left IF you drive the way you normally have before.

If you see your percentage seems to be going down a bit more than expected, then adjust your perceived range accordingly.
If you need to know at different charge states, do the charge thing at those percentages.   run it charge only to 90 percent a few times, then 80 percent a few times, and see what that does for range and what it reports.  That is about the best way you are going to get an accurate feedback for YOUR bike.  You are getting real numbers from real application of your riding experience.  Not estimates or just voo doo math.

One main take away, your bms MUST know a hard top and bottom for your battery pack togive you what it estimates is range.. as this drifts from constant up and down without completing a full charge, what it reports is going to drift as well.

Aaron

[KuRi]

Thanks again for the detailed explanations.

What bothers me is that I see a lot of online reviews for the dsrx with pictures of 250km estimated range at 100% SOC

I made some calcs, and the same route I do daily required a 65% battery on the DSR 2020, but requires only 50% on the new DSRX. Considering that I can charge the dsrx to 110%, it really gives some extra range compared to the DSR 2020. My concern was if the new DSRX battery is healthy because it is a 2024 model that was 1 year with no activity at the dealer and Zero gives no info of health or balance to users now

[Specter]

One year of no use, well if they stored it properly ie not baking out in the sun it should be ok.  There will be a little age degradation of course but it shouldn't be anything major.  Can you get into the data at all and see what the pack voltage is at?  What is the weight difference between the two bikes, and riding position, THAT believe it or not can make a huge difference in range at highway speeds.  I did some tests on my Ribelle and sitting up .vs. crouched down can cost you as much as 10 to 15 kw or more just from wind drag at highway speeds.  Once you start going much over 35 to 40 mph wind drag starts making a bigger and bigger challenge to you.  When you look at things like windmills and swept area you will see that a double of speed will affect the energy by a factor of 4.  On my big bike it can cost me 10 mph on the back end if I don't crouch properly and am sitting up... not to mention the head whipping and helmet scream.  This is all a drag on the bike, and the faster you take it out of the battery, the less capacity it has as well.

A 100 amp hour battery is not going to give you 100 amps for an hour straight.  at that 1.0 c rate you;d probably get about 60 ah, and only when you are taking a full 20 hours to pull the power off the battery, will you see 100.  The bike with the bigger battery capacity, in theory that means you are pulling less of a C rate on the battery, hence will see a longer range.  This is why you get 245 miles on a charge if you are running around town at 35 to 40 mph yet when you get on the highway at 75 you are only getting maybe 100 to 110 now... the harder draw on the battery kills it quicker.

Aaron

[KuRi]

Zero does not allow to check the voltage on Gen3 bikes without using some ODB reader (which I don't have and don't know how to use xD).

Thanks!

[mdjak1]

However with the new DSRX, the range when charging to 100% is more or less the same I had with the DSR 2020 at 100%, so I would like to know if I am using "only" 14 kwh when not charging 1o 110%.

I would suggest you run your battery down as close to 0% as possible and then recharge to 100% at a charging station that has a reading of how many total kWh it has supplied.   That will give you the answer you are looking for regarding whether you have 14 kWh nominal at 100% or 15.1 kWh at 100%.   Regardless, your 2020 DSR only had 12.6 kWh nominal battery capacity.

As to the charging speed being more or less the same as your 2020 DSR, I'm not sure whether anyone here knows the charging curves for both 2020 DSR and 2023-2025 DSR/X.   It is the charging curve that ultimately determines how fast the battery can accept power at any given state of charge.  Maybe they have the same charging curves, maybe they don't.   I'm not even sure the actual cells in the 2020 are the same as those in the 2023-2025 bikes.   That difference could very well be influencing what charging curve Zero uses in each bike.

[MVetter]

the question about 110% is not because I want to charge to full each time.

Why are you so keen on destroying your pack? I think I missed something.

[KuRi]

the question about 110% is not because I want to charge to full each time.

Why are you so keen on destroying your pack? I think I missed something.

Yes! Maybe you did not see the “not” in that sentence xD. I am extremely careful about batteries, my 2020 DSR were sold 5 years later with +90% battery health

My main question is… when zero says 137km of range at highway speeds… is it using 100% or 110%? And is 100% 15.2kw? If so… how they achieve the 110%? Overcharging?

Thanks!

[Specter]

The pedantary is not going to do much for you except cause issues.  You are worried about things you shouldn't be.

They take a 17 amp hour battery and sell it as a 15 amp hour battery,  they tell you charge it to 100 percent it gets you 15 amp hours.
Why? = Because it extends battery life.

Then they tell you if you MUST, you CAN charge it and use it all the way to it's 17 amp hour, but do so VERY SPARINGLY, and they call that charging it to 110 percent.

If they are advertising 137km of range they pretty much would be saying that for the 100 percent charge NOT the 110 percent OVERCHARGE/OVER DISCHARGE.

Don't worry about what they advertise, it's all BULLSHIT anyways, ALL OF THEM !!   Your bike is NOT going to get those numbers unless everything is perfect period!

Stop comparing it to your other bike,  well that one did this.  this one did that...  IT'S NOT YOUR OTHER BIKE!!!!!

Learn what THIS BIKE does, and be happy with what it gives you, because that is what you got.

Aaron

[KuRi]

Sorry if I did not sound nice, not intented. I really think he did not read my sentence correctly and he thought I wanted to overcharge daily. I dont want/need to use the 110% ever, just wondering about the maths.

Thanks all for your time and replies.

[TheRan]

The advertised range, capacity, charging times, will all be to 100% as the 110% is an optional paid extra. Doing the 110% charge isn't as bad as it might seem as by default Zero doesn't take the cells to the full voltage they're rated for, but of course the higher you charge the worse it is for battery longevity and even 100% should be avoided (except every now and then to balance the cells) if it's really that important to you.

[mdjak1]

The advertised range, capacity, charging times, will all be to 100% as the 110% is an optional paid extra. Doing the 110% charge isn't as bad as it might seem as by default Zero doesn't take the cells to the full voltage they're rated for, but of course the higher you charge the worse it is for battery longevity and even 100% should be avoided (except every now and then to balance the cells) if it's really that important to you.

On some models the 110% charging is standard.  My 2023 DSR/X has it available and it was no extra charge.  According to the current Zero website:  The DSR/X, SR/S and SR/F come fully loaded with every available Cypher feature..  Likely they are only talking about 2024 and 2025 models (and maybe 2023).