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[Grauteufel]

Massive price cuts in the US

https://electrek.co/2025/08/29/livewire-slashes-prices-with-extreme-sales-on-electric-motorcycles/

[Fran K]

This time the email and the links in it are more informative than the article. At participating dealers, not on company owned machines whatever that means. 2024 and 2025 models,  Long list of added fees possible.  Maybe the folks on here are used to that kind of fees on new left over bikes.  Is it one of those deals when you pay sales tax on the before incentive price, Ct is that way when I buy a pick up "truck".    Another thing just to ponder is if it needs something really expensive uinder warranty you might just get bought out for what it really would sell for on the used market.

[Richard230]

When I see a "fire sale" like that it makes me wonder if the company is going out of business and the dealers are just trying to clear their inventory before the business goes into the dumpster.

[DonTom]

When I see a "fire sale" like that it makes me wonder if the company is going out of business and the dealers are just trying to clear their inventory before the business goes into the dumpster.

Yep, there are often clues. They are not going to have a "fire sale" when business is doing great.


For another example, when A&S mentioned they could not get parts for Energica, they assumed the business was then failing. We know what happened next.


Perhaps the very first clue there was when we could order but not get the center stand for the Experia.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[most]

I guess this is an activity to secure the budget year 2026.
Fix and variable cost are anyway much much higher than the margin made with the bikes.
Just take average cost of staff times the staff count. Say, 100.000p.a. X 182 (reported staff in 2024)
=> 18,2mio. cost ONLY on staff. No building rent, energy, tools&equipment amortization
Average bike price is…?… say 15.000. Times #bikes sold (Reportes 620 for 2024) times 30% margin (blind guess)
=> 2,8mio earings before tax

So why not even lower the earnings but ass the same polish up the sales volume? Business is anyway depending on investors… and they like volume…

[flynnstig82r]

Even at 10 to 12k, the S2 bikes are a hard sell for most buyers with the limited range and charging, so I think sales volume is still going to be pretty low. Trying to go after the middleweight road-going segment was a bad idea from the start. That segment puts a spotlight on all the weaknesses of electric, and you end up with a big list of negatives vs ICE for most potential buyers, and the positives are only understood by the electric faithful who already have a similar bike, which equals marketing doom.

You can make a compelling electric in the ultra-premium space the Energica way by making no compromises, and you can find a niche like Stark’s dirt bikes where the ICE competition is also range-limited and not meant for long distance touring. What you can’t do is throw an electric dart at a random market segment and expect big sales when you have half the range of the ICE bikes at twice the price. That attitude shows a lack of respect and understanding of the technology, which the motorcycle market was correct to punish, IMO. It’s one thing to design and release bikes the way CanAm did as a way of developing expertise in the trial-by-fire of an actual product and not expecting to make their money back, but Livewire spent a lot of money and put high hopes on a Quixotic endeavor that was doomed from the start. An endeavor that the likes of Triumph and Ducati were smart enough to avoid, even as they invested serious money into prototypes.

I want to like the Livewire bikes, I really do. The One has dipped to $8k to $10k and is very compelling in a lot of ways, with L3 fast charging and reportedly-excellent handling characteristics. But when I think about giving up my FJR for something with no luggage or passenger accommodations, less than 100 miles of range, no L2 charging, and very little effective dealer support, I just can’t do it. Not for $8k, not even for $5k. It’s emblematic that Harley spent all that money sponsoring Ewan and Charlie in The Long Way Up, customized their Livewires for luggage, and then didn’t sell the Long Way Up adventure kit to the public or feature it in their marketing. They also didn’t even try to compete with Energica on pricing, range, or features. Instead of releasing a limited run of Livewire Ones to test the market, they went whole hog (no pun intended) and flooded cruiser-oriented dealerships with overpriced bikes that they couldn’t sell. As a second act, instead of focusing on something like an electric Pan America with a bigger battery and better charging, they went after the 650 to 900cc-equivalent segment, which is the toughest nut to crack and will probably be the very last segment where electrics are strong sellers.* It’s almost like someone dared them to see if they could spend the most money and sell the fewest bikes. I seriously can’t think of anything else they could have done to spend more money while selling less bikes.

*Zero did have success in this segment in the 2010’s, but they were pretty much the only electric game in town, their bikes represented the state of the art at the time, and almost none of the electric-curious buyers already had an e-moto. They also kept their sales expectations and expenditures reasonable.

[princec]

I think that analysis is spot-on, though I think range-wise, most bikers will come to accept 100 miles of real-world range to be adequate... but only if the price is roughly on a par with an ICE bike of the same power. Right now Zero SRs are effectively competing with MT-07s and GSX-8s and the like but cost 50% more. It's got to be price parity for people to make that tradeoff on the inconvenience.

Cas

[Specter]

Harley in general are finding themselves on a losing battle.  Their bikes are insanely expensive, they really don't have any entry level or starter bikes anymore, like the street glide? is it, and the things are maintenance intensive and basically, designed to break and be repaired.

You want a snazzy bike that looks cool, get a Triumph, and if you change the oil on time, and do the little stuff it'll last 100k miles and still be an awesome bike.

You want a snazzy bike that looks cool, get a Harley and now you have to decide how much more you want to spend to make it run correctly with this upgrade, and that up side, and this oversize, and oh we did the top end, but you'll blow your lower end out if you don't do that as well, bla bla, not to mention you are then told, well expect to overhaul this at 30k miles,  redo your top end at this time, a valve job at that time.  you already have planned MAJOR repairs on the damned thing and you didn't even get it out of the dealer yet.

The newer harley stuff is crap, i hear from a lot of old die hard harley guys, cheaply made, breaks easy, does not look at good etc etc.  not to mention none of them like the digital shit... that was one of the draws of the ole hogs, is you can work on them yourself, modify, customize etc, and with electronic this that and the next thing that all goes out the window.

Harley is dying, they just won't admit it yet, and their recent stint with woke, will be the final nail in their coffin that they will not recover from this time, unfortunately for them.

finally, of all the harley owners i know, which is a LOT, it seems like the always got something wrong with the bike, it's constantly in the shop for this or that or the next thing.  you don't see that nearly as much with the euro bikes or jap bikes, they run, run very wel and last a long time.

they had a chance when livewire first came out but didn't even do that right.  it's like every time someone  does something stupid with strategy or marketing, harley goes.  'Murica !! hold my beer....

Aaron

[Richard230]

Do you think BMW has a better EV sales plan than H-D?    https://www.visordown.com/news/bmw-unveils-vision-ce-electric-scooter-roll-cage

Of course, BMW did try the "enclosed" scooter concept before and it turned into a big sales flop. So why not give it another try? 

[princec]

BMW are deliberately dragging their heels on EVs.
As for this joke of a scooter, it'll be even more of a flop than the original. I wonder who exactly signed it off. It was clearly such a stupid idea that there must be some secret machinations going on behind the scenes for it to have happened.

Cas

[Fred]

It makes me want to go for a stoppie and then roll right over onto two wheels again.

[Specter]

put the same type bars on the sides and you have the short bus of bikes,  just add a drool cup and you are in!

Aaron

[Grauteufel]

of all the harley owners i know, which is a LOT, it seems like the always got something wrong with the bike, it's constantly in the shop for this or that or the next thing.

Lol, almost exactly my exposure to Harley owners as well. They fall into one of two groups, the first buys a new battery every single time they ride it because its that long between drinks. The second the bike spends more time on a trailer heading off to be fixed or in pieces getting fixed as it does on the road.

Having said that, I never seen a single Livewire of Panamerica on the road, so their newer and more adventurous models do exactly sell volume. I've seen more Bimotas than Livewires!

[Specter]

i seen a livewire at the track a few times, i wanted to go a few laps with him but he politely declined saying he cant after about a lap and a half, that'd be 3 ish miles his bike starts overheating.  not sure if that's a livewire thing,  and old livewire thing, or just a dicked up bike thing, but thats the only time i seen one.  ive seen a pair of experia's on the road from time to time coming home from a track weekend, they trailer them and i wave as i pass them.

seen one e mustang, he wanted to race me, i was at 42 percent battery but figuered what the hell, lets have fun,the road was empty, the train had traffic closed off and we came in on the back side, so... game on.    he got the jump on me, my bike was not as zippy on the takeoff with less than half a battery and i gotta go easy on the ribelle anyways, she likes to wheelie,  but i waved to him a little down the road when i passed him at 138, didn't have my dragy on but pretty sure i took him within 1/4 mile or so.

other than that i have not seen any electric bikes really or any performance cars.  yah the tesla's are fairly abundant, but just the normal ones.

the harleys if it's not  an engine problem it's, well this fell off, that is loose, this won't open / turn / flip / flop anymore, that spins around, and seems electrical problems with switches and stuff are common.  to be honest, the way those things shake and bounce around like a giant dildo, all the stuff loose rattling and switches goofy and wiring loose is not surprising no bike is going to be able to put up with that kind of mechanical vibration and stay tight.  with the kind of money they pour into those bikes, youd expect them to keep up a bit better and not keep falling apart, but they come to accept that as part of owning a harley. im sorry but if im pissing 30 to 50 grand on a bike i want that thing to run years before i have to rebuild the top end, or redo the tranny, or throw a rod. or... whatever...   goldwings are insanely expensive too but i hear they keep up fairly well.   was looking at the triumph's, those look pretty nice but heard both good and bad about them.  of course the dealer is going to say they are the best thing since sliced bread but you know how that is.

aaron

[MarcS]

Do you think BMW has a better EV sales plan than H-D?
Of course, BMW did try the "enclosed" scooter concept before and it turned into a big sales flop. So why not give it another try? 

I guess they understood why the C1 flopped: engine too small - they were going after housewifes with a car license only, who in Europe were allowed to ride 125cc motorbikes/scooters, but totally forgot to market the C1 to men with a motorbike license who wanted a bigger engine (e.g. ME! I bought a Gilera Runner instead after test riding the C1 and being quite disappointed of its acceleration). After all, Vespa (the market leader of scooters) is selling way more 300cc (their largest engine) than 125cc scooters.
And because of the damn folding fork (again for housewifes) the C1 got too heavy and wobbly.

The new enclosed scooter will be lightweight and most probably not underpowered - the current BMW CE04 is quite capable. I am pretty sure this time it won't flop.