Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[princec]

For me, riding is a work horse (one reason I have a Zero rather than Energica, it's a bit lower maintenance). If I ride that Zero into the ground, over 10 years and 50,000 miles, it will have cost me ~60p / mile (77c / mile), factoring in tyres, insurance, servicing, belts, tax, electricity, and the odd bit of protective clothing (which doesn't last forever and costs a fortune). Or to put it another way, £30,000.

What is interesting is that when I use the same calculations for my Ionic 5, but doing about twice the mileage (100k miles which is accurate for my use), it costs 66p/mile. A mere 10% difference!!

Intrigued I also put the figures in for my wife's hybrid RAV4 ... also 66p/mile, despite the fact it uses petrol. And I have to point out this is based on my EVs being charged at home at the special off-peak electricity rate every night (8p/kWh).

I don't think fuel costs are really a thing that sells EVs... the difference in cost of the actual fuel is wiped out by other rather larger factors.

Cas

[Motoproponent]

My Experia is my workhorse. It does all my commuting and traveling. I have 26,000 miles on it so far.

It replaced my KTM1190 Adv so I have a solid maintenance schedule to compare the two.

Considering I paid 10,000 for the KTM in 2018 (I was the second owner) as the baseline for the purchase price for the comparison. If I had kept the KTM on stead of getting the Experia in July 2023, it would take 7 years for the two decisions to reach cost parity. Including the regular maintenance schedule of each with approximately 1000 miles per month of usage.

I initially put a lot more miles on the Experia when I first got it, trying to get a Saddle Sore 1000, but now the useage has settled into a routine.

[ElectricRebel]

The battery is not liquid cooled.
The motor also is not liquid cooled. (EMCE might be)

Well, technically both EMCE and Pre-EMCE Motors are liquid cooled.
Pre-EMCE is cooled by Oil, EMCE is implemented into the normal Inverter cooling system.
I have Pre-EMCE, so oil change every 10k km.

[DerKrawallkeks]

Ah yes, you are correct.
The oil of the pre-EMCE motor is only circulated through the motor and never to any radiator, so I didn't really count that (even though it's an important design feature).
I read somewhere that on early bikes (might only have been the race bikes) the oil was actually cooled by a radiator (or indirectly with a heat exchanger to the water loop, idk). But they found that's not even needed so it was made into a closed system.

[FrankF87]

Regarding the Energica auction. The trustee posted on the Portale delle Vendite Publiche website - translation to English - "No offers received by the deadline of 03/19/2025, 4:00 p.m., as required by the competitive tender notice." What happens next?

https://pvp.giustizia.it/pvp/it/detail_annuncio.page?idAnnuncio=4334419&fbclid=IwY2xjawJJXzJleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHROsZ7bx99WC2Kcccl-l8E6uJUNFcP6KgJbLWWUPi3en8mPDZ9vcU6Ngng_aem_zcuLiSonf8i13YOkWrsc1A

[most]

Next, the liquidator will again lower the asking price & the next round begins. Purpose of the liquidation is to sell the inventory & IP to the highest bidder - and with the cash this will generate the liquidator will satisfy the creditors best possible.
If that 3rd round is again not successful, there will be another round. And another… until cash is being created to satisfy the creditors best possible. It is also possible that the liquidator will switch to a different selling model and sells Energica not as a whole lot but in pieces.

We shall see in the days and weeks to come…

[Specter]

It can't go on forever,  sooner or later they have to either get an owner or call it quits.

Even if someone does pick it up for an absolute steal of a deal, if they don't have the money to 'fix it' and keep it going into the future, ... and these next 2 to 3 years are going to be very bumpy restarting it,  it's just kicking the can down the road.

It's probably going to take 20 million to get it really going well again.  Restarting everything, new contracts, getting new inventory, selling bikes.  YES there is a nice long list of people still waiting for bikes, but once that is filled, then what?    YES there are other 'sub entities',  the motor has many other uses, and there is some other tech and proprietary stuff I won't mention here, they could license out elsewhere to help them along.

It was mentioned before, what if the customer base pooled together to buy the company?

I would like to see, rock bottom, what is the absolute bare minimum it takes a month to run the place,  payroll, electric, rent, etc etc.   Can they churn out product fast enough to keep that going.

on a bright side, there ARE bikes out there that been shall we say 'in need' for a while now, so when they do re open there will be a bit of a flash influx from dealers doing repairs, annuals, and stuff like that.  They might have to schlep a bit on warranty stuff, which while regrettable, would not be uncommon, but it could be enough to jump start them until they are ramped with bikes again.

The experia is a nice bike and I do see a lot of potential for it, if they can bring the price down a tad.  Maybe if they could sell directly that'd save a lot on dealer markup, but then comes the, well what when something energica specific fucks up?  They'd need some sort of remote tech or deals somehow to do Energica Only work.  I can't see too many dealers saying, oh we'll fix bikes for them, we just won't sell them.  Im assuming it's a bit of an investment on the dealers end to learn all the stuff and the initial outlay for some specialty equip, the programmer etc etc.


Most stuff a regular dealer can fix.  the guy who works on my bike is a race bike shop, and unless it's like a programming thing, Eric can handle it.

maybe if Energica also put a kind of referral program,   if you refer someone and they buy a bike you get a 500 dollar or 1000 dollar credit on energica stuff,  can be used towards a new bike, equipment for yours,  maintenance or repairs to yours, or eventual upgrade.

there are things they could do to cut costs a bit, and help out in the short term, just need to find an owner with a bit of cash to keep them going for a bit longer.

Dear god... I know ive been a prick all my life, but for once, do me a big one, let me win ehh....30 million in a lottery.  10 goes to taxes and the rest of the 20 i can buy the company and get us going solid finally.....

It's worth a shot

Aaron

[Stonewolf]

They could bring Experia's price down by building a couple thousand units in one go to exploit economy of scale. The new owner might also take the view that many of the fixed costs basicly contribute 0 to the costs in restarted pricing given that someone else took the hit on it. That's kind of a one-time deal for that bike and not a sustainable practice though and they might also decide that whatever their purchase cost for the company would have to become the fixed cost in the R&D costs stead.

Also I think you're lowballing it at 30 million.

[Specter]

but thats the problem stonewolf, thats what they want to do and they already have orders for lots of them but can't get the parts because the orig owner would not pay the bills and the suppliers said no more!!

that's the aggrivating thing they HAD a solid business plan and it was working, they got shafted by some con artists.

lowballing at 30 million.  can you please explain why?  this is not a shot at you just genuinely interested in your perception.  Remember there will be other revenue coming in as well during this build up time it's not just a dead drop of cash.... hopefully

aaron

[Stonewolf]

The last figure we had for how much funding it needed per year was €12 million so you need to assume you've gotta have €12m times the number of years it's gonna take to break even. The CEO has also said you'd need to make 2000 Experias to "break even" and while I'm not sure if she meant per year or in amortisation terms let's assume you're gonna use your big cash to just up front purchase materials for 2000 Experias to get that sweet economy of scale and manufacture them at 500-1000 per annum, if it costs you €20000 to make one then it costs you €40m to make 2000, a bunch of which is helpfully gonna be cut out of your €12m per annum but then you need to assume you're gonna pull in equivalent sales numbers to justify that production volume. Add in all the other costs of running a company, warehousing all those parts and materials, and bootstrapping the company back up out of the dirt and I think you're conservatively looking at €50m. And that's just to keep the company alive long enough to break even.

The fact that you're getting money back in as bikes go out the door is great but you don't get to rely on it because you cannot sit still, you need to build 2000 more Experias after that *and* design a new bike, *and* build that new bike at scale ...

So I reckon to keep the company alive you probably need to give it 50 million Euro up front so it has the security of being able to just do what it needs to do and then on top of that if you want it to really thrive you've probably gotta give it another €50m to get those new projects off the ground asap so that it doesn't get left behind by potential competitors, avoid reputational damage by supporting existing clients, keep building Ego platform, etc...

All of this is pretty back of the envelope stuff without access to the real numbers, maybe 20 or 30 million is enough to scrape the company back together and get some bikes out the door but there's a gulf between that and actually succeeding in making the business sustainable.

[Richard230]

The likely problem with potential investors in Energica is their feeling about the potential market for electric motorcycles right now. My thought is that it is not very good at this time.

[PWM]

I'm hoping that Energica USA is recognized in the liquidation process and gets dibs on spare parts and IP for the effort to sustain service and parts replacement for bikes already manufactured...it's the logical entity to do this....talking worldwide support...low overhead w/ pride to keep it alive and future proof something good.

The IP doesn't support new sales IMO unless one lives in a particular Italian valley...then the technology moves too fast to recognize ROI...Energica owners collectively should petition the court and encourage it to do the obvious.

[Specter]

stonewolf another thing to add to that list.  people are going to wreck bikes, break things, wear out things, so they are also going to have to maintain that marketplace as well in the spare parts / rebuild-repair side as well.

one of the biggest issues I believe also will be, they've been in business what 10 years now?  making new models all along the way, that means every year or so, shit changes so it's not just one closet of bike parts, they are going to have to have parts for ALL those years back, and then the fun fun fun of making all that shit talk and play nice with each other.  There's a tribal knowledge there as well, that if they bust it up, could be a significant issue as well meaning people have to learn / relearn how to make all these different parts from all these different years and revisions, all work with each other.  The current team has been there from the beginning, they see a problem and go oh yeah, I know what that is, here, do this, and kick that.  If some of those people are forced out, there goes that knowledge.  Now the remaining people without that first hand experience will have to figure things out all over again.  Ive seen it countless times in the past.

aaron

[Stonewolf]

Yup, that's what I meant by avoiding reputational damage by supporting existing customers. It's not just fulfilling orders, it's making sure there's a parts supply chain for older bikes so you don't give people the impression they're on their own if they buy something from you. My bike's been bricked since about the same time the company went bust so it's an issue I'm keenly aware of.