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[Grauteufel]

HD wouldn't touch energica, they already have their livewire business and it is losing money at a prodigious rate. It's easy to understand why, I went to a Harley dealer and they had no interest in selling livewires. The one they had was hidden in a corner behind a pile of leaking second hand cruisers. My enduring impression of a Harley dealership was the smell of burnt oil and unburnt fuel.

[Specter]

Harleys are bling and garbage.  They are designed to break.  Well you better Plan on a valve job at 20k  a top end overhaul at 30k, this at 40k, that at 20k etc etc.  not to mention well this is the base mode, if you want more power, you have to add this package.  oh but the lower end won't handle it, so you better aftermarket have them beef up the rings and this and that too or it'll fly apart and leak even more oil all over everything.  This is a lot by design too, kind of a, well let's sell it to them, then keep getting their money trying to keep it running properly.

Harley owners go in knowing they will have to rebuild the cludge and overhaul it time and time again, and are happy with that.. umm ok.
Buy a Triumph as an example, take care of it and it'll last 200k miles, no engine rebuilds, or overhauls needed every 40k!   WTF, Harley.

Just because you pay a ton for it does not mean it's quality stuff.
Energica's are more in line with Ducatti and the likes, premium quality performance, not just shiny objects to get the simpletons attention.

I don't see the worldviews being compatible TBH.  It's a different class of people, not saying caste, just type of people.  Harley can barely keep their own company running in a profit, they wouldn't do much better with Energica im afraid.

Aaron

[Pard]

Good points.

True, livewire is not doing well, but they are still in business, while Energica is not.  I expect they are watching the auction closely, because if somone would buy Energica and have the funds to keep it going, that would hurt LiveWire significantly in terms of future sales.  LiveWire only benefits from a dead Energica. 

They could buy it and shelf it just to get rid of the competition risk.  Must not fear it being purchased by anyone.

I could live with a dumbed down energica with no rider aids at all and a simple throttle curve like a remote control toy.

Better than a dead bike.  May have to go that route if all options for repair are exhausted.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1EW1qDdr5p/

[Specter]

Let's see what happens come april when the auction is over.  Hopefully this is the last round and they are bought by someone.

As I said before, even if the motorcycle part is sluggish, the tech on the motor and the control of it, THAT is money right there.
Put it on heavy machinery, a fork lift as an example,  Maybe little tow motors to haul planes around, I know a guy at the track I talk to, who is in the aero industry working on a battery powered plane, guess what one of their prototypes is using as a motor?  Boats, Barges,  Imagine a tug boat with nothing but motors and batteries, and a massive prop to produce HUGE propulsion, that thing could push a bridge across the river let alone a boat!!  With the instant torque of electric, it'd be very good at what it does.   Just a few examples of the potential for any owner who does end up with the tech.  They wouldn't have to push it as a 'green' thing either, and have to listen to the but you need diesel to recharge it nonsense, push it as a power .vs. instant torque safety thing, you get winds picking up or a line breaks and that boat starts drifting into danger, we got INSTANT massive power to grab it and control it type thing.  There would be a hell of a lot less maintenance on it too.  If for some reason id did catastrophically fail, let it burn, it sinks, fire gone.  House the batteries in a steel case or something so you just crane the mess to shore and dispose of it.    Just thinking out loud.

aaron

[Richard230]

HD wouldn't touch energica, they already have their livewire business and it is losing money at a prodigious rate. It's easy to understand why, I went to a Harley dealer and they had no interest in selling livewires. The one they had was hidden in a corner behind a pile of leaking second hand cruisers. My enduring impression of a Harley dealership was the smell of burnt oil and unburnt fuel.

That is just what H-D dealers used to do with Buell models. 

[Richard230]

Wish HD would buy Energica.  Corner the market on cutting edge electric motorcycles worldwide.

HD did buy the beloved Alta and then killed it. That was very sad. But maybe the Energica motorcycles are much closer to their core market than Alta was, and the customer base would be large enough to actually make money.

And that is what Polaris did with Brammo. They bought it and then a couple of years later, killed it. Electric motorcycles are just not seen as good investments for the major manufacturers. Also, don't hold your breath until BMW shows up with a real highway-legal electric motorcycle. Toss in the current world economy, add in a potential trade war this year, and the future of the electric motorcycle industry is not looking bright.   

[Grauteufel]

Piaggio just posted record profit margins, maybe they could scratch around under the couch and help a fellow Italian out.

[princec]

I'm not sure LW benefits from a dead Energica... I think at this stage of the development of the EV motorcycle market, it needs more entrants, more development, more choice, and more exposure to consumers. The more bikes and manufacturers are out there making decent products the more normalised it will get. And hopefully the fiercer the competition. I think one reason Zero are so incredibly slow at development is that there really isn't anything competing with them in their market segments still.

Cas

[Specter]

The trade war might not be as bad as you think.  Remember, they are going to have an Energica USA.  If the bike is final assembly in the USA, it might qualify as US built, be eligible for whatever incentives might still be around AND still avoid the tarriffs to a large extend because it's built in usa.

Not going to get into the logistics of the work arounds, which everyone already KNOWS and uses to this tarriff but they could easily send over a 'some assembly required' finish it here and it's an energica USA bike.     NOT having tarriffs on it, would by comparison make it more price compatible with a bike that is say.... built entirely in the phillippines.

Not sure how long the tarriffs will last, but with that, they COULD last forever, because think about it, a tarriff is a TAX... and the government keeps the money from TAX, and in this case, the government can  blame the OTHER GUY for the tax, instead of it's self.  It's THEIR fault there's a tax so the outrage is NOT at the govt for taking which at the end, is YOUR money.

Time will tell.

Aaron

[FlyMig]

Did any of you happen to calculate how much you can ride your Energica for the cost of single gallon of gasoline?  It turns out that these bikes are crazy efficient where even a 50 CC moped seems like a gas guzzler.  On the street for the price of a single gallon (California) I could buy enough electricity to ride 450 to 500 miles.  Let that sink in, ONE gallon.  I get about 90 Wh per mile (street) normal riding with 0.11 cents per KWH electric cost and from then on you can do the rest of calcualtions.
Regular people can't even imagine how incredible these machines are and how much they are actually worth in the long run and I haven't even mentioned maintenance cost as compared to any other premium Italian brand..... 
 

[Grauteufel]

I did indeed do the calculations, and it would have needed close to 160,000km for the energica to pay off over a something like a tracer 9 gt. Full power electric bikes do not make straight up financial sense because the purchase price is over double a similarly specced petrol.

[JaimeC]

Now factor in the cost of valve adjustments, oil/filter, air filters, clutch replacement, fuel filters and spark plug replacements.  In this respect, Zero is more efficient as everything is passively air-cooled whereas Energica does require some oil changes as the motor and battery are liquid cooled...

[DerKrawallkeks]

The battery is not liquid cooled.
The motor also is not liquid cooled. (EMCE might be)

[Specter]

The oil changes on an energica are minimal, like a few ounces .vs. 5 quarts or 8 quarts for a bigger truck as an example.
The fluid for the inverter  / motor is umm a pint maybe?  You don't really have to change it either, just top it off IMO, unlike an ICE it's not picking up combustion materials or chemicals from the water used.  Being a closed system your losses should be next to zero, as there are no overflow buckets to seep it out of etc etc.

My use, ehh, i  can use from 100 to 230 watts per mile depending if I am on highway, which if ofter and how long, sometimes 20 to 30 miles one way daily.  Still, the price over gas and when you get stuck in a traffic jam not having a bike's radiator just pouring heat into you, is wonderful.

when calculating your electric price,  don't forget, they ALL add taxes and stuff on it, base costs, this and that tax, fee, levy, entitlement ... whatever they want to call it.  just divide your final bill by the kw you used to get a more real price per kw number.  now do that for a year and then average it out to get an overall average REAL price per kw hour.  I guarantee it's NOT the 8c kw/hr  11c/kwhr they claim it is.

Aaron

[jotjotde]

For the most of us the bike is a hobby. So in my view calculating the cost is a bit like calculating how cost efficient your spouse/partner/kids/pets are 

As with all statistics, I can always draw up numbers that tell me what I want to hear.
That already starts with the ICE bike I am comparing my Ribelle to. I can use a Streetfighter V4 for 30000 or a Speed Triple RS for 18000 bucks.
Compared to a four wheeled EV (usually some brick-design SUV) my Ribelle uses only half of the kWh/km those consume. Hey look, I am a tree hugger 

BTW, from MY22 on, motor (EMCE) and inverter are liquid-cooled.