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[Pard]

How real is this?

https://newatlas.com/automotive/honda-solid-state-battery-production-line/

[Specter]

I am not sure.
All solid state means at this current juncture is that is a capacitive storage device.  Carbon between sheets of plastic.
solid state vs chemical.

supercaps are the next thing, they are dumping a lot of research in them and there are several out there now for industrial use, however the specs are quietly going down on them as they get real life use data off them.  From 'million' to 10 k life cycles and I see amp draw lowering as well.

The limiting factor on them is dielectric strength, how many volts can it hold before it punctures?

Another thing Id like to know,  chemical if you short it, it burns for a while, after all the reaction has to take time to happen to make the power / heat etc, it's NOT all instantaneous.   You crowbar a cap now, and it could go off like a bomb.  I wonder what worse case failure mode is on these?

Back in my Navy days, we'd take the caps out of the inverters, spin em on a megger for a few minutes to charge them up, they were about the size of a quart can., then tap them on the back of a steel chair.  They'd sound like a 45 going off and blow holes in the back of the chair.  These were only a few 10k mfd,  now lets see that at about 4 orders of magnitude or more storage. 

Aaron

[Stonewolf]

How real is this?

https://newatlas.com/automotive/honda-solid-state-battery-production-line/

Looks roughly in line with all the other stuff coming out about solid state.

Solid State Batteries aren't capacitors, they're regular lithium-ion batteries that have solid electrolytes rather than liquid as is currently used. Solid state lithium batteries are very much the next big thing and the battery and automotive industry are gearing up to get them into mass adoption over the next few years, by 2030 they should be basicly the norm so we may see them in motorbikes as soon as 2040.

Supercapacitors are something else entirely and do have interesting applications especially for buffering of high power loads so that batteries get a more even load profile but not as a replacement for batteries. If you'd like a quick overview here's a video from a few months ago:

[jotjotde]

Solid State Batteries appear to be commercial available (kilowatt range) within the next 3 years. As far as I know, small SSB will be on the market earlier. E.g. Toyota, Nissan and some Chinese big companies already announced vehicles with this technology in 2026 (more likely 2028) and are now building production facilities. That is assuring that this technology is not a fad.

https://carnewschina.com/2024/11/25/saics-second-gen-solid-state-battery-mass-production-to-start-in-2026/

What is still open is the question of necessary ressources (e.g. rare earth metals) and price. This technology could potentially go the same way as fuel cells. Fuel cells are available since decades but still aren't cheap enough to be installed into a 'normal' car. The Toyota Mirai at 65 kEuro (basis) is said to have a real price tag of nearly 100 kEuro. Toyota subsidies this car as a technology flagship.

In my view SSB could be a game changer because they have about double storage capacity per kilogram (400 Wh/kg and more) and can be charged with higher power. Exactly what we would like to see in our bikes, either making them lighter or packing double range plus maybe triple charge power.

[princec]

Yep, they will absolutely change the landscape on electric motorcycles - only issue to overcome is cost and luddites then.

Cas

[Pard]

Will be interesting to see if any vendors develop packs to retrofit into existing EVs, like our bikes.

[princec]

Not a chance. They want to sell new motorbikes.

Cas

[Pard]

Not a chance. They want to sell new motorbikes.

Cas

Yeah, but Energica bikes are orphaned.  I would buy a new battery that had more capacity or the same capacity but lighter weight.

When our batteries die, I hope there are options.

[Stonewolf]

While you can get up to double the gravimetric capacity it's important to note you're only looking at 40% more volumetric capacity which is your big limitation especially if you want to talk about updating an existing platform.

Taking the Ego+ approach would see about 30.5 kWh, good for range parity with a Tuono V4 or MT-10, something like a 20kg weight drop. You'd still have the same inherent thermal issues but the greater tolerance of the cells and their more favourable charge performance means it wouldn't as big a deal; you'd also need to bump the charge rate if you want to maintain current charge times though so you might not get a lot of benefit in that respect unless you're also willing to accept 40% longer charge stops. Overall a drop-in SSB for Ego platform would be great and it's something I'd consider as a project for a few years down the road if cell costs continue to fall.

[Motoproponent]

Not a chance. They want to sell new motorbikes.

Cas

There's always the chance of backwards compatibility. When the original 24kwh battery in our 2013 Nissan Leaf finally popped smoke, we replaced it with a 62kwh battery from a 2020 Leaf. It came as a kit with bigger springs for the extra weight.

Now we have a 1st gen Leaf with 230 miles of range that costs a nickel to insure and register.

With the Experia being the basis of a "new platform" , if someone picks up where they left off with the development we might get lucky and get new battery tech made for the new bikes that will fit in our current bikes.

Longshot but a guy can cream can't he?

[Specter]

I think they'll have a replacement if needed.  They can essentially use the same case the old battery came in, and shove whatever fits into it and callit the new battery, that will be however much improvement that comes out to be.

Higher cap, but same use model, means less of a C rate on power flow, which equals longevity and less heat.  Maybe they keep the KW the same but add some sort of cooling so it can charge much faster because they can dump the heat much faster now.  Plenty of options to ponder.

Aaron

[DonTom]

How real is this?

About as real as the rest of the endless EV battery vaporware.


-Don- Auburn, CA

[PWM]

How real is this?

https://newatlas.com/automotive/honda-solid-state-battery-production-line/

Real.

Gotta love the "blade" formfactor w/ opposing electrodes for module fab...not a hype, IMO.

The biggest hoop to SSB construction that doesn't exist in liquid-electrolyte type is layer integrity...voids are the killer.

Note, Honda speaks to "bonding" and hints to a rolling operation for addressing said issue and it is an issue...addressed by some by making things tacky...works great in the lab...hard to handle by production machinery.

The claims on capacity may be exaggerated because lithium chemistry generally remains the same...activation is immediate for SSB...no ion loss as happens when electrolyte is introduced to activate the graphite coated electrodes used on conventional cells...not certain but something significant like 20% gain for SSB right off the same bat....density improvement maybe another 20%...and it cannot swell otherwise it delaminates and looses capacity...vibration resistance in EVs is a factor...

Thanks for sharing Honda link.

[T.S. Zarathustra]

Not a chance. They want to sell new motorbikes.

Cas

If people had the option to purchase replacement batteries older bikes would rise in value. That would make it easier for current owners to upgrade to new bikes. I.e. providing batterypacks for older bikes will sell new bikes.

As for these Solid State Battery "news". Solid State Batteries been vaporware for too long. Even if they finally arrive it will be nearly impossible to deliver all they've been hyped up to be.

[princec]

Of course, but, this is not something that any manufacturers want. They want to sell you a new bike.

Cas