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[Cedar]

Hey all
I'm thinking about buying an electric motorcycle or moped to save gas money commuting to town a few times per week. I live 2000 ft above town, the road is a windy 16 miles. I would expect stock brakes to burn up quick, are there any solutions? Regenerative braking? Electric motor braking (similar to engine-braking)? Are there any bikes sold for long hills? I'd like to stay under $6000 if possible
Cheers!

[DonTom]

Hey all
I'm thinking about buying an electric motorcycle or moped to save gas money commuting to town a few times per week. I live 2000 ft above town, the road is a windy 16 miles. I would expect stock brakes to burn up quick, are there any solutions? Regenerative braking? Electric motor braking (similar to engine-braking)? Are there any bikes sold for long hills? I'd like to stay under $6000 if possible
Cheers!

You want an electric bike for sure.  If you have an Energica at max regen, you will probably never touch your brakes going down that hill. Some bikes have more regen than others. Brakes rarely get used when you have an electric bike with a lot of regen. The amount of regen is easily changed on any bike--even as you're riding.


You will also be happy with the Zero's regen--on any of the bikes, but the Energica has more. Also the, Energica has less as when regen is switched off, it coasts very well. Zero's slow down a lot even when Regen is set at Zero.


Ride an electric bike in the hills just one time and you will never want a gas bike again on those hills. Electrics are much like being in 6th gear and first gear at the same time.  Hills are one of the best things about electric bikes. Uphill seems like level ground and don't even notice you're on a hill. Down hill you really notice when you back off the throttle just a bit.


If you want to start with a lot of regen from your house, do not charge above 95% SOC.  At the high end, regen lowers a lot so the battery will not over-charge, especially on the Energicas.


BTW, both of my houses are on the very top of a hill.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[flynnstig82r]

Hey all
I'm thinking about buying an electric motorcycle or moped to save gas money commuting to town a few times per week. I live 2000 ft above town, the road is a windy 16 miles. I would expect stock brakes to burn up quick, are there any solutions? Regenerative braking? Electric motor braking (similar to engine-braking)? Are there any bikes sold for long hills? I'd like to stay under $6000 if possible
Cheers!

$6k is a pretty constrained budget. Do you anticipate riding on freeways? If so, you might have to wait until prices come down or your budget goes up. You would be very hard pressed to find a freeway-capable e-moto for that, even second-hand. If you’re not likely to exceed 55 MPH, you have some options, but I don’t know enough about those bikes to tell you how strong is the regen, only that most EM’s will probably provide enough regen braking for a 2,000 ft descent over 16 mi.

[Cedar]

I do not need to go on the freeway, 43mph is standard for electric mopeds and is perfect for me.

You want an electric bike for sure.  If you have an Energica at max regen, you will probably never touch your brakes going down that hill. Some bikes have more regen than others. Brakes rarely get used when you have an electric bike with a lot of regen. The amount of regen is easily changed on any bike--even as you're riding.


You will also be happy with the Zero's regen--on any of the bikes, but the Energica has more.

An Energica or Zero would be great but I don't have $20k - $30k to tie up. I'm wanting to get something that will save me as much money as possible while saving the environment too (although the manufacturing of the battery and bike may be more destructive than driving my gas truck around for an extra 20k miles, which is what I think the life expectancy of an electric moped is). That's why I'm hoping to spend $6k or less.

For example, take the 2022 NIU NQI GT PRO from Portland https://vespaportland.com/scooters/niu/2022-niu-nqi-gt-pro/
My calculations show that it would save me $2600 if I use it for 20k miles until the battery needs replacement, compared to using my truck. But when I consider the compounded time-value of money for $7k ($6k purchase plus $1k maintainence) over 4yr I am passing up $3600 profit.

I am ok if it's a net $1k loss because I think it would be fun to ride the moped. But when I know the brake discs will probably burn up and turn blue after my first desent and constanty replacing my brake pads I'd be talking a lot lot lot more than $1k net loss. I talked to the sales rep and they don't know of any way to upgrade the brake discs and it does not have regen braking, so I'm still searching for the right e-moped or e-bike.

Thanks for letting me ramble and clear up my thoughts haha!

[flynnstig82r]

In that case you’ve got plenty of options below $6k. As long as you go with a reputable brand, you should be able to get more than 20k mi out of it, and I doubt a moped and battery would entail more GHG emissions in manufacturing than 20k miles driven in a gas truck. By pessimistic studies, it takes an electric car 70-90k miles to break even with a gas car (not a gas truck) and e-car batteries are absolutely massive by comparison. I would have to look at the actual numbers to be sure, but I think you would break even in terms of environmental sustainability well before the 20k mi mark.

Niu’s might be OK, but I’ve heard some mixed feedback (although the issues might have been with a particular model). I believe that Super Soco has a pretty good rep. Most of their models are a motorcycle form factor, but I think they have some mopeds as well. There’s also CSC. I’m not the best person to ask about this segment of the market, though, as I use my bikes as freeway machines so I don’t actively research the smaller ones.

[DonTom]

I somehow missed the 6K$ part. That will be a problem for anything decent.


Especially for these days.



Used prices of EVs are at a peak because of the high gas price. You cannot win with this deal.


Best time to buy a used EV is when the gas price is very low!


These days, the prices between new and used are getting closer by the day with EVs. Not many want to unload an EV of any type these days.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[Curt]

You might be able to find a used 2015 to 2017 Zero for around $6K if you keep a lookout. My FX is 6 years old, still going strong and fun as hell.

[talon]

Be very careful about relying on regen going downhill. There are many conditions that can cancel or limit regen on a Zero, so you may be forced to pull over and let the brakes cool down occasionally if you were suddenly without regen. For instance:  imagine if you charged up to 100% at home in which case it wouldn't regen at all going downhill... any brake can overheat and suffer severe fade.

[Cedar]

In that case you’ve got plenty of options below $6k. As long as you go with a reputable brand, you should be able to get more than 20k mi out of it, and I doubt a moped and battery would entail more GHG emissions in manufacturing than 20k miles driven in a gas truck. By pessimistic studies, it takes an electric car 70-90k miles to break even with a gas car (not a gas truck) and e-car batteries are absolutely massive by comparison. I would have to look at the actual numbers to be sure, but I think you would break even in terms of environmental sustainability well before the 20k mi mark.

Niu’s might be OK, but I’ve heard some mixed feedback (although the issues might have been with a particular model). I believe that Super Soco has a pretty good rep. Most of their models are a motorcycle form factor, but I think they have some mopeds as well. There’s also CSC. I’m not the best person to ask about this segment of the market, though, as I use my bikes as freeway machines so I don’t actively research the smaller ones.

Do you know anyone or maybe a different forum that specializes in brands under 6K? Maybe I'll talk to some local moped salesmen.

Be very careful about relying on regen going downhill. There are many conditions that can cancel or limit regen on a Zero, so you may be forced to pull over and let the brakes cool down occasionally if you were suddenly without regen. For instance:  imagine if you charged up to 100% at home in which case it wouldn't regen at all going downhill... any brake can overheat and suffer severe fade.

Couldn't I just turn back uphill and ride for a few minutes? It shouldn't take much time to use up 5% of my battery on such steep hill and regen braking is so inneficient that going down the whole 13 mile hill would probably recharge it less than 5%. Or maybe a more convenient fix would be to splice a high- voltage shutoff to the charger so it only charges to 95%. Even better is to find a bike with motor-braking that can be activated independently of the regen but since Zeros are high-end and even they don't have it I'm doubtful they exist.

[DonTom]

Couldn't I just turn back uphill and ride for a few minutes? It shouldn't take much time to use up 5% of my battery on such steep hill and regen braking is so inneficient that going down the whole 13 mile hill would probably recharge it less than 5%. Or maybe a more convenient fix would be to splice a high- voltage shutoff to the charger so it only charges to 95%. Even better is to find a bike with motor-braking that can be activated independently of the regen but since Zeros are high-end and even they don't have it I'm doubtful they exist.

AFAIK, all electric motorcycles have adjustable motor regen. Zeros have both, adjustable brake and deceleration regen. Energica only has  deceleration regen. None on the brakes, just like Tesla. But they have so much deceleration regen they need no brake regen.


You can set Zeros brake and deceleration regen independently, but I normally see no reason to NOT put the brake regen at 100%. The deceleration regen is more of a personal preference.  You can have it set at 100% and then use 0 to 99% by not releasing the throttle all the way. So it's more about what you want the bike to do when you fully release the throttle. It's a good habit to get used to NOT releasing the throttle all the way unless you want to make a full stop.


As long as you're a few percent below 100% SOC you will have full regen. The higher end bikes will have a way to set that so charging stops at any percentage you want. Charging slows down a lot near 100% SOC so it usually isn't too difficult to know when to shut the charging off even when you don't have that feature. In fact, most bikes tell you on the screen how long it takes to charge to 100% with home charging. So if it says two hours and five minutes, disconnect in two hours or less. Use a timer or whatever and get it exact. There are always to prevent a full charge. Zeros have a lot of motor drag even at 0% regen. It coasts poorly no matter what you do, unlike Energica which coasts very well when set for no regen (or set for full regen with 100% SOC).


However, you should charge once in a while to 100% for better battery balancing.


Your big problem is your limited budget--Especially these days when demand for EVs of any type is high because of the ridiculously high gas prices. IMO, EVs are the best vehicles for hills. They don't compare at all to ICE vehicles in the hills.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[talon]

As long as you're a few percent below 100% SOC you will have full regen.

IIRC motor temperature being too high, battery temperature being too high or low, and pack imbalance while regen are other factors that can disable regen at any percentage. So you may not even know that one cell is charging unevenly and if it gets past a certain threshold (say 100mv away)  then regen may be shut off. I'd have to log into my bike or review settings logs to see at least some of the specifics but I'm just trying to illustrate a point to just be careful. I used to live on and near some VERY steep hills that could smoke brakes easily and my Zero regen was not sufficient alone and I rode it enough to encounter some of these other factors that turned off regen temporarily at least one time. Safe riding

[DonTom]

The regen energy goes into to the battery and you might end up with overcharged cells.

Every EV I own (5 of them) turns the regen off when above 99% SOC or so. Also lowers the regen until down  to around 95% SOC. Regen is  normal below 95% or so.   On Zeros, you probably will not notice it much, because it coasts so poorly even with  no regen.


So the real issue is you have no regen for a while on a full charge when you start from a hilltop.  This can be prevented by not charging above 95% SOC.


Both of my houses are on top of a hill, so I notice the big difference in lack of regen  when fully charged.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[kjmc]

I'm late to this discussion, but I have a Niu MQi GT, and it absolutely has regenerative braking.  I don't know why that Portland ad doesn't mention it, but I'd be surprised if the N-series doesn't.  If that's really the case, go for the M series.  If I'm below 80% battery, it regen brakes lightly every time I slow down, and regens hard when I lightly hold either brake lever.  I'm putting about 3000 miles a year on mine.  It was over $6k, but only because I bought an extra set of batteries.