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[Crissa]

https://youtu.be/ZrHad73VLkE?t=474s
TEN337@7:54

Energica CEO hints at 15min to 80% 'soon'.

No timetable, but interesting, right?

-Crissa

[DonTom]

Your video isn't working.

-Don-

[Crissa]

Your video isn't working.

Fixed.  The embed didn't like my link.

-Crissa

[ultrarnr]

No question it sounds interesting. But when you look at fast charging Energica took a few steps backward with the Ribelle compared to the Eva 107. The Eva 107 did not start to taper until 70% SOC and the battery temp would still be in the green in temps below 90 degrees. Last Saturday I started CCS charging with my Ribelle with 8% SOC remaining. It started to taper at 38% SOC. When I stopped charging at 80% SOC the battery icon was yellow and it stayed that way for the 65 mile ride home. Temps were in the 70s. Sometimes I wonder how much testing Energica did with this system before making the decision to put it on the market.

[wavelet]

Interesting, thanks Crissa!
On reading the Visordown interview quotes, however, I'm not quite as optimistic as the video presenter; the context seemed to quite general, and "around the corner" could well mean "eventually, in a year or two, with upgraded batteries", not "in current bikes, with the next firmware update".
IIRC, Energica hasn't upped the rate they reduced for all bikes during the last year.

Also, that 15% to 80% could be relevant for the smaller packs only, not the 21kWh ones.

[Crissa]

Well, she said we didn't know.

But if they can software limit it, they can also raise the software limit.

I would expect it the next battery pack, personally.

-Crissa

[umrath]

Charging at >1C is no problem. The technology exists and we have packs that can stand it.
The critical part is clearly cooling the battery.

If I look at my Zero SR/F which is clearly heating up when charging at 6 kW only, I can imagine that 12 kW is already a problem on warmer days.

So, Energica must (already now) manage almost 2x the charge speed and somehow manage to get rid of the excess heat. That needs active cooling, obviously.
But 15 min. to 85 % (assuming this means 5-85 %, so 80 % net charging at the current battery size of ~18 kWh net) this means 14,4 kWh in 15 min, so 57,6 kW charge speed.
This is around 3 C and more than twice as fast as the current Energicas are and almost 5 times as fast as the Zero is.

Again: I doubt that cell chemistry is the issue here. I'm quite sure that cooling the pack is.

[wavelet]

Well, she said we didn't know.

But if they can software limit it, they can also raise the software limit.

I would expect it the next battery pack, personally.

-Crissa

That makes sense to me.

Charging at >1C is no problem. The technology exists and we have packs that can stand it.
The critical part is clearly cooling the battery.

If I look at my Zero SR/F which is clearly heating up when charging at 6 kW only, I can imagine that 12 kW is already a problem on warmer days.

So, Energica must (already now) manage almost 2x the charge speed and somehow manage to get rid of the excess heat. That needs active cooling, obviously.
But 15 min. to 85 % (assuming this means 5-85 %, so 80 % net charging at the current battery size of ~18 kWh net) this means 14,4 kWh in 15 min, so 57,6 kW charge speed.
This is around 3 C and more than twice as fast as the current Energicas are and almost 5 times as fast as the Zero is.

Again: I doubt that cell chemistry is the issue here. I'm quite sure that cooling the pack is.

Again, makes sense.

Lots of places where ambient temps regularly exceed 35°C/95°F (our entire summer is like that, with multiple riding days of 40°C+ / 107°F+ weather -- not much fun adding a couple of hours to a desert trip for charging sessions, with no A/C .

[princec]

Is this not solvable with full liquid cooling with radiator and fan setup, a la ICE?

Cas

[reini]

Is this not solvable with full liquid cooling with radiator and fan setup, a la ICE?

Sure, but it'll reduce battery capacity (the added cooling channels take up space) and makes a heavy bike even heavier.

[princec]

I don't think there's any way around it though. Faster charging trumps larger capacity I think.

Cas

[umrath]

I don't think there's any way around it though. Faster charging trumps larger capacity I think.

This!

Yes, we (still) need bigger batteries because I do think that 150-200 km at highway speed (130 km/h) should be easily possible in the future. And even the Energica's 21,5 kWh pack is hard pressed to reach that without draining the battery to the very limit unless conditions are perfect.

But, apart from this I think that we will follow what the car industry is doing for quite some time already: Favor high charge speed instead of growing battery capacity ad infinitum.
While the jump from the 28 kWh of my IONIQ to the 64 kWh of the Kona was quite a leap forward, the next upgrade to the Model 3 with 75 (or nowadays 82 kWh) does not change much in regards to how I drive. The range is plenty and I usually need a stop much earlier than my car.

Eventually we will reach that state with bikes as well. It feels like we are trailing the cars by about 4-5 years or so.
And looking at my car which reaches a peak charging speed of 250 kW and an average charge speed of ~125 kW (0-80 %) that means we already have charging speeds of 1,7 (avg) to 3,4 C (peak) for our cars. And I can sustainably reach that, even in hot weather.

So, if we manage to squeeze about 20 kWh of net capacity (needed for 150-200 km of highway range) into a bike then this would mean we should reach a charging speed of 34-68 kW with today's cars technology. Well, the Model 3 is on the market for 3 years already.
Given the 4-5 years delay that I assume between cars and bikes, we could expect to see bikes like this appear in the market in 2022 or 2023. Not so far away as it seems.

Question is: Do they manage to squeeze the car's technology into the form factor and weight limitation a bike has?
I guess: It should be possible. and considering that the current battery pack from Zero (14,4 kWh) is essentially 3 years old already, one could assume that the next leap forward is to be expected quite soon.
And Energica will not stop and watch either. Their CCS capable packs are not too new either (even though the 21,5 kWh pack is). So, an upgrade to the achievable charging speed with a very moderate update to the capacity is not completly unrealistic here.

[Richard230]

When I talk to someone about my Zero who does not own an electric vehicle they never ask about charging speed. All they ever ask about is battery range. My feeling is that if a manufacturer's goal is to sell EVs to the ICE-owning public, they need to continue to develop vehicles with greater ranges. Fast charging is only a concern for people who already own an EV and use it for traveling relatively long distances. 

[Sklith]

I don't think it'll be too long from now until battery cells have lower internal resistance where they can charge at 2C without overheating as long as the ambient temperature's not too hot.

I agree about the importance of fast charging over capacity - especially as electric cars are pushing 300 miles of range. The E-GMP platform Hyundai/Kia have promise some amazing charging speeds! When I'm supercharging my Model 3 for long distance traveling, I prioritize frequent stops so I can ride that 200kW+ charging speed. Love the V3 superchargers.

[DonTom]

I don't think there's any way around it though. Faster charging trumps larger capacity I think.

Cas

More charge stations is what trumps all. Even slow charging is fine as long as one can charge every time they stop no matter where it is. Charge all night and then every stop if even for only a few minutes.


There's little advantage to double the range when it takes twice as long to charge, if there are enough places to charge.


-Don- Reno, NV