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[Curt]

The idea will simply never fly, at least, not in the "go to a petrol station and swap a battery" way that they seem to be so keen on.

Totally agree. I too know the anxiety around swapping a new propane tank only to get an expiring rust bucket. But swapping for charge is not the only or main reason for having an industry standard (I long ago dismissed swapping for charge, and wasn't considering that here).

I envision taking a longbrick out of a Zero, and the fancy extruded monstrosity out of a LiveWire, opening the cases and swapping around the individual standard bricks inside to replace bad ones, or move them to a powerwall, portable inverter, leaf blower, etc. Put them on an external charger, or a battery analyzer, etc.

[Curt]

For it to work it needs to cater to the lowest common denominator. If you allow all types of chemistries then the current draw and charging current can only be as high as what the weakest chemistry will allow.

And for that, it should be possible to use MOSFET switching technology to bypass some current, or all of the current around a failed cell, and drop some percentage of over-provisioned voltage, in lieu of trying to balance cell voltages where a few millivolts difference is catastrophic. It would be similar to the way microinverters work better for solar arrays.

[Crissa]

Rivian has the patent on that technology, Curt.

The fact that batteries age and no one wants to being paying for them continually puts the nail in the bed of public swappable batteries.

And they can't be tiny cells in a big unit, either, as lithium batteries have more expansion and fireblock needs.

Because of the extra weight and loss of range, I don't really see cell-swapping to find much of a niche except in off-road and mopeds.  There just is too much weight to the battery you're moving, which means it needs even more structure to attach it with and that's weight that could let you get from A to B.

-Crissa

[TheRan]

I might add that the defective Power Tank box that was replaced in my 2014 S when it was first installed by my dealer had a BMS attached to its exterior according to the Zero technician that replaced the PT with a good one.

From looking at images it appears that the Power Tank modules are the same as the 3.6 modular batteries for the FX/S, just with some hardware to mount them in the tank area.

For it to work it needs to cater to the lowest common denominator. If you allow all types of chemistries then the current draw and charging current can only be as high as what the weakest chemistry will allow.

And for that, it should be possible to use MOSFET switching technology to bypass some current, or all of the current around a failed cell, and drop some percentage of over-provisioned voltage, in lieu of trying to balance cell voltages where a few millivolts difference is catastrophic. It would be similar to the way microinverters work better for solar arrays.

I wasn't talking about defective or worn batteries but rather how different battery chemistries have different properties. For example what Zero uses is good for 1c charging according to them while Energica allows much higher current, and either of those batteries will allow much higher current draw than a bunch of 18650s used in a cheaper scooter. Every manufacturer has their reasons for choosing the batteries they do and there's no single type that will serve everyone's needs.

[Richard230]

Removable batteries might work well in the Polaris Ranger. They could use two or four Power Tanks to power the vehicle.

[princec]

Then again doesn't the Ranger have space to spare to just shove, like, twice as many batteries in it in the first place?

Cas

[Richard230]

Then again doesn't the Ranger have space to spare to just shove, like, twice as many batteries in it in the first place?

Cas

That is what I was thinking. But having removable batteries could also give options if someone wanted to lug extra batteries around for use when needed.

[wavelet]

Yes, I don't see how this matches up with the announcement tow years ago that all of the Big Four were cooperating on swappable batteries.
And of course, multiple moped & scooter makers are already doing this, including some of the largest (Gogoro, NIU, Kymco); we even have a locally designed scooter (manufactured in China) that has this and is popular with delivery fleets.

However, I don't see how any of it is relevant to motorcycles. They modules used in existing swap systems as well as the new standards are in the 1.5kWh - 2.6kWh (latter is Gogoro) range, and weigh 7-9 kg .
The swappability concept is closely tied to removability for charging -- a rider needs not just to move it a few feet to/from a vending machine, but also to take it out of the P2W parked on the street into an apartment or business for charging.
That puts an upper limit of probably 10kg or so on a pack.

A 125cc-equivalent commuter bike the Metacycle or Evoke Urban could maybe have 3-4 modules, but that's probably the limit w.r.t. extra space for packaging, cooling etc.

And that isn't a solution for packs for actual motorcycles, for which a swap solution is most sorely needed. Real sport-tourers are going to need packs north of 30KWh.

[Crissa]

At 30kWh, you aren't going to want to swap that pack.  That would be 220 lbs in Tesla's new 4680 cells.  That's not swappable.

-Crissa

[wavelet]

At 30kWh, you aren't going to want to swap that pack.  That would be 220 lbs in Tesla's new 4680 cells.  That's not swappable.

-Crissa

Precisely. Even if we get a 2x improvement in Wh/kg it's not going to be swappable (not manually, and noone's going to build swap stations with swap robots on backroads).

Which is why swappable batteries are a complete non-starter for longish-distance motorcycles (as opposed to mopeds & commuter scooters) for decades to come.

[Fran K]

"
Which is why swappable batteries are a complete non-starter for longish-distance motorcycles (as opposed to mopeds & commuter scooters) for decades to come."
[/quote]

You are thinking solo rider not group ride with support vehicle.  Or Enduro, Turkey run, hare scramble with gas stop.

[Crissa]

You are thinking solo rider not group ride with support vehicle.  Or Enduro, Turkey run, hare scramble with gas stop.

At that point you're no different than someone at a race track, not a tourer.

-Crissa

[Fran K]

You are thinking solo rider not group ride with support vehicle.  Or Enduro, Turkey run, hare scramble with gas stop.

At that point you're no different than someone at a race track, not a tourer.

-Crissa

I left out race track and moto x as I never have been involved in those events.  The group ride is for me is a once a year memorial ride with an elected road captain.  A pack of bikes  having a place to charge up for all needing it would be a chalenge for the road captain.

Perhaps you have wandered around in the Blog section at Damon and found where the blogger states once the battery is fading it is time for a new bike.

Fran

[NEW2elec]

You are thinking solo rider not group ride with support vehicle.  Or Enduro, Turkey run, hare scramble with gas stop.

At that point you're no different than someone at a race track, not a tourer.

-Crissa

I left out race track and moto x as I never have been involved in those events.  The group ride is for me is a once a year memorial ride with an elected road captain.  A pack of bikes  having a place to charge up for all needing it would be a chalenge for the road captain.

Perhaps you have wandered around in the Blog section at Damon and found where the blogger states once the battery is fading it is time for a new bike.

Fran

On the swappable battery concept I can see where in some very limited applications it could work in the short term but as I've predicted for some time that what we have now with Li-ion won't cut it for the masses and trying to make a "standard" battery type now is foolish.
Wait for better solid state, which will be able to charge so fast there won't be a need to swap at all.

On the more important point of Damon let me say that vlog YT video post was from someone who knew very little about Damon and in the comments section he thanks a certain Forum member for his "help" making the video.
I don't know how Damon will build their battery cells into the Hyperdrive unit but "IF" they can identify individual bad cells through a BMS grid pattern then those cells "might" be able to be exchanged increasing battery life. 
Bad pouch cells potted in Zeros and Energicas require all new batteries which is the main cost of the bike. 

[Fran K]

The Energica cells are not potted, I think this has been discussed.

As to what this consortium comes up with if they can get along and better get BMW, Harley, etc to join in does not have to be only one size and shape and voltage module, at least the way I envision.

You are still going to have ediquite about multiple folks waiting in line to charge.  Where will that go, there is one place actually a franchise, to get a haircut where you can walk in and sit down but if someone else does an on line reservation they go first apparently even if they are not present when you walk in.  It says walk in's welcome on the door.  I doubt it will be like one person gets the gas pump turned on and then they use the hose to fill multiple bikes.
Lithium is #3 on the periodic chart so the likelyhood of something vastly superior, how likely?

Sure electric is more effecient but gas and diesel gather needed oxygen that need not be carried.

There are some that envision real rapid recharge, not sure if that means a massive sub station or a battery array at the charger.  Others envision approaching an outlet on lots of posts that hold up lights over the highway but low output.