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[Richard230]

KTM wants to collaborate with Honda, Yamaha, and Piaggio regarding standardizing swappable batteries. But will the big guys actually be interested in using the idea for anything but city bikes?  https://electricmotorcycles.news/ktm-signs-a-letter-of-intent-with-honda-yamaha-motor-and-piaggio/

BTW, hasn't someone done this before and now seems to be slipping away from the concept? 

[princec]

It's an irrelevant technical dead end.

Cas

[Fran K]

"The Consortium will start its activity in May 2021. The four founding members encourage all interested stakeholders to join the cooperation to enrich the consortium’s expertise."

That is wonderful but like you note I thought the 4 big Japanese players have been collaborating for a couple of years.  Zero, Energica, and Harley can all have Consortium model or models.  I see choices like this a standardardized set of battery modules and the proprietary competition to such.

[JaimeC]

KTM wants to collaborate with Honda, Yamaha, and Piaggio regarding standardizing swappable batteries. But will the big guys actually be interested in using the idea for anything but city bikes?  https://electricmotorcycles.news/ktm-signs-a-letter-of-intent-with-honda-yamaha-motor-and-piaggio/

BTW, hasn't someone done this before and now seems to be slipping away from the concept? 

All four Japanese manufacturers have already worked on standardizing batteries.  There is an Indian company that makes a scooter with swappable batteries too, but they are not part of this agreement. 

[TheRan]

There are also a few Chinese manufacturers that have swappable batteries, Nui at least uses the same batteries across all of their scooters as far as I know. One of the big brands does already have a "standard", I think it may be Honda, but it's only ever been used in one scooter and I think it was limited to China or Japan or something like that. I don't think a universal battery will ever happen, at least not one that doesn't require tools to remove and replace it and it would probably end up being comprised of multiple packs (like a bike that ran off a bunch of regular car batteries). And, while it could end up being used across multiple brands of bikes it will never be used in the majority of them, so instead of being limited to just one brand you'll be stuck with say 3 or 4 and there'll still be another 10 that don't use the same battery.

[Richard230]

Well, like I implied, it seems as if Zero is either moving away from their removable battery idea for technical reasons on the FX or it just wasn't selling well enough for them. 

[Curt]

It would be nice to have a set of standard "brick" form factors and I-V interfaces, kind of like AAA, AA, D, 9V, etc. so that we could refresh an EV every 5-8 years when the bricks age out or when new technology allows for increased range and power. Good for recycling too.

Some bricks could be small, for e-scooters and e-bikes, some larger to accommodate pouches and other technologies still without limiting overall battery shape, and some with coolant inlet/outlet for larger high-performance vehicles.

Cell balance is a bummer, so how about an independent BMS in each brick so they don't even have to be the same technology? And powerline communication technology to limit the number of contacts for CAN bus?

[TheRan]

For it to work it needs to cater to the lowest common denominator. If you allow all types of chemistries then the current draw and charging current can only be as high as what the weakest chemistry will allow. The voltage needs to be low enough for the least powerful bikes which means multiple packs for the more powerful bikes, and then multiples more for longer range bikes. We will never get a significant amount of manufacturers to agree on what is best and there is no "universal" best, and there's just too much variance in battery design to be able to cover it all with an easily swappable modular system.

[Fran K]

Well, like I implied, it seems as if Zero is either moving away from their removable battery idea for technical reasons on the FX or it just wasn't selling well enough for them. 

I can infer that the military and police models are not a significant portion of the 2000 or so bikes they sell a year?  They use the dual removable battery, 3.6 called at this point in time.

[Crissa]

None of the police bikes I've seen use the removable batteries.

-Crissa

[Richard230]

None of the police bikes I've seen use the removable batteries.

-Crissa

Same here. The ones that have seen are apparently based upon the S or DS models with the large battery pack.

Regarding industry standard swappable batteries, the biggest hurtle might be getting all of the manufactures to agree on a standard. And the other problem is finding room in a motorcycle chassis for a large battery capacity pack that can be removed in pieces to be recharged by the owner or replaced in the future.

I might add that the defective Power Tank box that was replaced in my 2014 S when it was first installed by my dealer had a BMS attached to its exterior according to the Zero technician that replaced the PT with a good one.

[JaimeC]

Swappable batteries in an off-road competition bike make a LOT of sense.  You don't want to be sitting on the sidelines recharging and miss a run.  Having fully charged batteries ready to pop in for your next run makes a LOT of sense.  They also don't have to be very big.  For on-road use, I've learned those batteries are pretty damned heavy and not something someone could easily swap out without assistance.  Still, I do believe the idea has merit.  Swapping a battery out should take less time than charging, even at DCFC stations.  Before batteries can be swappable, though, the manufacturers would have to agree on dimensions and connections, not unlike the batteries in modern automobiles.

At one time, if you owned a BMW motorcycle, all you had to do was get a "Battery for a BMW motorcycle."  Didn't matter if it was a K bike, or an R bike, they all used the same battery.  Same went for Harley Davidson.  Sadly, BMW has followed the Japanese lead and you have to make sure you buy the "right battery" for the bike you own.  I consider that a real PITA, but that's just me.

[princec]

The idea will simply never fly, at least, not in the "go to a petrol station and swap a battery" way that they seem to be so keen on. These batteries are worth thousands. I wouldn't swap something out of my bike - in a known condition, worth thousands - with some other random battery that promises to be a) working b) safe c) fully charged d) reliable. Where's the comeback if it explodes or turns out to only have half the charge it claims or is so worn out it conks out unexpectedly (and then explodes)? How much paperwork would I need to swap a thing worth £3000 to ensure that things went smooth in the event of mishap? What happens if you crash and bust it? What happens if it's stolen? I'm certainly not paying up front for a multi-thousand-pound device that I then swap with some random one after doing just 50 miles. It's all just a bit daft.

Competition use is a totally different kettle of fish. And even then I wouldn't be swapping with anyone else's batteries, I'd have bought and brought my own, in which case, I couldn't give 2 hoots about an agreed standard battery fitment, I'd want the exact best battery for my bike that could possibly be designed, without compromise.

Cas

[JaimeC]

One has the same issue with propane tanks these days, you know.  How do I know the tank is REALLY full?  How do I know it's not leaking and will cause an explosion because the leaked gas was accumulating in my basement?  How do I know the metal in the tank isn't fatigued and about to explode the next time it gets hit by the sun?

[princec]

Well, because you can hear it sloshing around, you can smell it leaking, they're incredibly simple and robust devices, and they're worth bugger all?

Cas