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[caza]

And like I said, America isn't the only market that matters and is perhaps the one least suited to lower performance bikes. Even if they did bring the bikes to America they probably wouldn't sell that well. That's America's problem, not the manufacturer's. For a bike to sell in America it needs Zero performance and you're simply not going to get that at a much lower price.

Outside of America, a very large market (bigger I would guess), those types of bikes serve their purpose well and hit the price point between things like the CSC Slicker that shouldn't even be on the road and base model Zeros.

Again, electric bikes in this price range do have the potential to sell in america as evidenced by these "off-road" ebikes selling out constantly. There is a market for this, it just isn't being served by moto companies. Is that market as big as other areas of the world? Obviously not. America is not the only market that matters, but it's the subject I'm talking about specifically. 

If americans didn't want to spend $4-5k on an e-moto, Onyx, Sur-Ron, Monday, and Huck would all be out of business instead of expanding rapidly. The market is there, even if it's smaller than other countries. It just isn't being met by anyone making DOT approved bikes. That's not an American problem, it's a manufacturer problem, missing an opportunity for growth.

The performance requirements for an off road bike are very different to those of a road legal bike. The Sur-ron will hit about 45mph (and you wouldn't want to go much faster than that on one) and weighs 47kg, the Super Soco TC Max is probably one of the fastest bikes in its price range and can just about hit 60mph at 85kg. That sort of performance isn't going to sell in America for on-road use. It's not just that it won't be fast enough compared to other vehicles on the road (because apparently everyone goes over 80mph on the highways) but also Americans want their bikes to be able to hit 60mph in under 4 seconds. On the other hand in places like Europe you have plenty of people on A1 and A2 class bikes and speeds are lower so an A1 equivalent electric bike fits in nicely.

In America a 650 twin is considered a slow beginner bike, in the rest of the world that's more speed than you could ever need and many people will happily ride even slower bikes.

You're again ignoring the facts that these bikes are selling, and though they are not legal for on-road use they are being bought for and used on-road.  Onyx hits 60mph like the soco, is being used almost exclusively on-road, and is selling out.  Comparing them to a 650 is irrelevant, nobody is buying them expecting them to be highway bikes and contrary to popular belief, not every vehicle on america is needed or expected to be highway capable.

[TheRan]

I'm not comparing them to a 650, I'm just pointing out America's attitude towards lower powered bikes. There's a reason no one rides 125s except for Groms and dual sports and everyone gets an MT-07 over an MT-03 as their first bike (and those people are told by everyone else that they should have gotten an MT-09 instead).

If the Oynx really is selling out then it's simply because they're not making very many of them. As for people riding it on the road they're probably not doing so in the same manner that they would with an actual motorcycle (no helmet, no gear, lower speeds, shorter distances) and it's less conspicuous being smaller and looking more like a regular bicycle. Chances are anyone that rides one doesn't have a motorcycle licence and probably wouldn't be interested in getting one. If they were going to get one and invest in gear then chances are they'd spend the same money on an ICE bike and go faster and further, not get a Super Soco and have similar speed and range as the Oynx but with the hassle of gearing up and a larger and heavier bike.

[Crissa]

Chances are anyone that rides one doesn't have a motorcycle licence and probably wouldn't be interested in getting one.

...And hence, not buying a real moped, either.  Because that requires an M on your license.  So what's the solution?

-Crissa

[TheRan]

I don't know. I'm just saying that most of the people that would be riding an Oynx on the road aren't the sort of people that would ride an actual motorbike. They're the same people that would ride an electric scooter, One Wheel, boosted board, or an electrically assisted bicycle.

[valnar]

Knowing RE, it will be 50 pounds too heavy and not as powerful as the competition.   

[caza]

Unfortunately the moped laws just aren't sufficient. The 2mph difference between a 28mph class 3 ebike and 30mph moped means anything that legally counts as a moped doesn't make any sense in the market. (Though critically the class 3 needs pedal assist for it's highest 8mph)

I disagree that these people wouldn't ride a motorbike, I'd argue that they are riding motorbikes, and while certainly some of them are happy to be hooligans who don't register their bikes, many more would happily register and pay insurance for these lower powered bikes if they were manufactured as motorcycles. As for gear, most of them seem to already be wearing motorcycle helmets and gloves, but whether they're ATGATT or closer to a squid riding in shorts and a t-shirt has no bearing on the bikes themselves or their ability to be registered.

Edit:

So it looks like more recently HUCK has added info on the moto version of their bike.  Info here. Judging by the pictures of the moped version it looks like they haven't actually produced the Stinger X yet.

They only offer the bigger battery in their motorcycle version, but that expense gives you a 60mph top speed, 3.6kwh nominal battery for $5500 with tax included. Taxes of course vary by state but in CA that would make the pre-tax price to be $5116.

Which is to say yes, you can build an electric motorcycle in this price range with desirable specs. There are a lot of younger riders and college students for example that would absolutely start with something like this for their first bike, that would not be able to afford the next step up to a Zero FXS for $4000 more. But they've never had registerable options before.

The other thing to consider is tax incentives. Fed incentives are about to expire but potentially these bikes being registered as motorcycles could lead them to eligibility for california's KWH based tax rebates. Wouldn't have an astronomical effect on price point, but it would certainly help.

[TheRan]

Just like the Super Soco that 60mph is the best case scenario, you'll only see that with a full battery if you tuck on flat ground. To be able to reliably hit 60 in all conditions you'd probably want a top speed approaching 80, and I really can't imagine many Americans spending the time and money to licence and register the bike and gear up if it can't do that speed. Also at that speed with just 3.6kW/h range is going to be down around 25 miles on a good day.

[caza]

Not everyone needs to go 80 or even 60, yes even in america. Nobody is claiming these things are highway machines. Again, urban, suburban areas, college towns, etc.  Young people without huge incomes. 60mph top speed (not cruising speed) is perfect for being able to zip around in local traffic not on the highway.

Americans are not a monolith. It's a hugely diverse landscape filled with different people and different needs. Are these going to sell as much as an SV650? No. But that doesn't mean there's no market. Again, these are already out there, people are already buying them, riding in the streets, and yes, they often even wear helmets! Which again, is irrelevant as there are plenty of people riding literbikes with no gear. Gear has no place in this conversation.

It's naïve to think none of these people would be willing to pay the modest fees for registering such a cheap vehicle or the dirt cheap insurance fees if it meant they'd never have to worry about it getting impounded. There are also people waiting and wanting to buy one but are discouraged by the legal status.

[Crissa]

But your $5k bike isn't doing anything more than the sub $2k gas bike.

That's very similar to the $6k I spent on my bike vs the $7k my spouse spent on her new Ducati.

-Crissa

[caza]

Ev customers pay more than ICE customers, this is true in every single price category and will continue to be true for some time.

[Crissa]

Ev customers pay more than ICE customers, this is true in every single price category and will continue to be true for some time.

I mean is there a market for that, sure, but the tech doesn't actually hit that price point right now so it's kind of a mute point. ...

I was more commenting on the price points currently available. Zero, Cake, and others have bikes in the 7-8K range and above, doing the best they can do with that price point. But the 4-6k price point which is basically entry level for real motorcycles, is pretty much barren. The only bikes in this space tend to be ebikes like the onyx that are not legal motorcycles and cannot be legally ridden on most public roads. I want to see more emotos built to that price point.

-Crissa

[caza]

These are not in conflict with each other.

We pay more for electric performance compared to gas.

You can still build it to a price point.

Yes, a $5k emoto will not match the performance of a $4K gas moto.

For the Price of a Zero SR, you can buy a literbike that outperforms it and still save a couple thousand dollars. Yet, there is still a market for the SR because it turns out that people who buy electric are willing to get less performance per dollar, because at the end of the day they want to ride electric.

This concept is still true for people who have $5k budgets, want to go electric, and don't need highway capabilities. More bikes made to fit these budgets, like the Super Soco, Huck, etc, are needed to fill that gap in options, but in order to truly fill the need they need to be both available and legal.

[TheRan]

This concept is still true for people who have $5k budgets, want to go electric, and don't need highway capabilities.

Perhaps they're just fucking with me but most of the Americans I've spoken to do want that, and it seems to be backed up (or at least the manufacturers think it too) by the lack of 125 gas bikes available in America. The few that they do have access to are mainly meme bikes like the grom (yes it is a massive seller but it's also really cheap) or off road bikes. Even in Europe no one is buying 125 versions of bigger bikes (RC125/Duke 125, MT-125, CB/R-125, etc.) because they want to, it's because they need to due to licence restrictions.

[caza]

There are definitely a lot of americans that think this way, and its somewhat ingrained into the culture of conventional ICE motorcycle riders.

They are not the same people interested in lower price electric bikes. Motorcycle riding as a whole has been declining because it has failed to excite and interest younger riders, and we can see in the e-bike scene the same kind of excitement and shenanigans that lead to harley's rise. The market I'm talking about for cheaper electric moto's is certainly small, but it also has the most potential. This is the biggest opportunity for growth and for bringing in new riders in american motorcycling.

Or we can stick with the conventional wisdom of ICE bike manufacturers in the US and watch as the american motorcycle industry crumbles, while its ridership ages out of being able to ride and it fails to capture new riders.

Also, you keep bringing up licensing and I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal here as it is in europe. In the US you need to pass a fairly straightforward multiple choice written test, and you can ride whatever bike you want with a permit. Then to get licensed you just have to do a couple circles in a parking lot. It's not difficult, and it's certainly much easier with these smaller lightweight electric bikes than with a heavy 650cc "beginner bike" with a clutch. The hardest part of the process is just waiting for a DMV appointment.

[Crissa]

Failed to excite?

Do you understand that it's more difficult to get a motorcycle license than one for an SUV?  And the SUV comes with a 30x less chance of death (for the driver)?

That's why very few pick up cycling or motorcycling.  It has a high barrier of entry and a stiff penalty if things go wrong.

-Crissa