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[caza]

I suppose that's true, and it's one of the smaller markets for bikes in general compared to places like india, but it's the place I live and so it's obviously the market I'm personally interested in.

At any rate, there are plenty of small entry level bikes available in the US, but they're all gas. I can buy a bike for 4-5K from almost any major manufacturer, but I can't say the same for electrics. That's all I'm getting at.

[Crissa]

As long as a good battery sells for $6K, you won't, either.

-Crissa

[DonTom]

At any rate, there are plenty of small entry level bikes available in the US, but they're all gas. I can buy a bike for 4-5K from almost any major manufacturer, but I can't say the same for electrics. That's all I'm getting at.

Indian makes a very cheap and very entry level electric motorcycle.

And very much so on both. Only $750.00.

The problem here is the opposite. It's way too cheap and way too entry level.


-Don-   OPCNM, AZ

[TheRan]

At any rate, there are plenty of small entry level bikes available in the US, but they're all gas. I can buy a bike for 4-5K from almost any major manufacturer, but I can't say the same for electrics. That's all I'm getting at.

Indian makes a very cheap and very entry level electric motorcycle.

And very much so on both. Only $750.00.

The problem here is the opposite. It's way too cheap and way too entry level.


-Don-   OPCNM, AZ

That's about as relevant to the discussion as Triumph's Trekker ebike. Less so actually, at least the Triumph is road legal and intended to be used for commuting by adults.

[wavelet]

There are actually quite a few bikes in that area, just not from ICE manufacturers. You've got Super Soco, Sur-ron, Horwin, Kolter, and Niu to name a few.

NIU is a siginficant player in electric P2Ws (powered 2-wheelers), but all the models currently being sold are 50cc equivalents limited to 45 km/h; they have announced the NIU RQi-GT (motorcycle form factor, 30kW, 7kWh battery), but AFAIK it isn't sold yet.
SuperSoco all have motors below 4kW, so I'm discounting them -- top speed is 95 km/h which isn't sufficient for motorway commuting.
The Sur-Ron Storm Bee does have the power, but not the cruising speed (top speed is 110 km/h), and certainly not the range; also it's a dirtbike, so not an optimal form factor (dual-purpose works well for urban commuting; full dirtbikes have too much suspension travel IME).
Ditto Horwin: There will apparently be more powerful bikes, but there even specs available for them yet. They're not currently selling anything >5kW. Ditto Kolter.

Now, it can be argued that the 30BHP I mentioned is overkill -- on an e-motorcycle, the torque matter more.
True; however, 5kW is far too low for my taste. I want any motorcycle I own to be able to accelerate out of its own way (and more importantly, out of the way of a 2-ton 400BHP SUV with attentive driver). 5kW doesn't get you there, not when you're already at 70mph. So maybe 15kW (~20BHP) is enough, but certainly nothing less, and given how cheap electric motors are, the difference in component costs between a 15kW and 20kW is small.
There is also a perception issue; riders who today commute on a Kawa Z400 / Honda NC700X ( (~50HP), aren't going to replace it with something with a 10th of the power. And IMO that's most of the accessible market, at least initially. People who currently don't ride at all are highly unlikely to do motorway-speed commutes just because an electric bike is available. Again, This isn't about pure-urban moped replacement.

All that said, all the companies above (apart from NIU & Evoke) are new in the field, not established motorcycle companies -- IMO most riders wouldn't buy a vehicle from them they need to rely on daily (myself included).
I also had some hopes for the Kymco RevoNEX, but it now looks like the production bike will be a full-on halo sportbike to help sell mopeds & scooters, not a  mid-power bike in its own right (it's even going to be manufactured in Italy, because the market is Europe, apparently).

[caza]

As long as a good battery sells for $6K, you won't, either.

-Crissa

You can make batteries of any size built your price point. I don't expect a $5K bike to have the same 3.6KWH as a $9K zero FXS. . Likewise I don't expect it to have the same 20kw motor or 85mph top speed. Concessions have to be made to meet the price point. Just like how a $4K Honda Supercub can't compete with a $9k CB650R.

Making those concessions is possible. Again, we see this with the grey-area illegal ebikes like the onyx or the huck (which apparently is adding vins now!) But we just don't see it being done in the more traditional motorcycle market with proper DOT requirements being met.

The Onyx is a bit over $4K, hits 60mph top speed, and has 7.24 HP. Its performance is really close to 125cc ICE motorcycles in its price range though I suspect it's quicker off the line. The base model has a 23ah (not listed so I suspect 72v) battery. It's pretty close to what I'm asking for, except for using bicycle components and not being a proper registered motorcycle. It's not hard to imagine a major manufacturer being able to match the Onyx's specs and price point, but in a proper moto frame so it can be a road legal, proper beginner's motorcycle.

But instead in its price range we have a bunch of illegal or psuedo-legal bikes. Meanwhile you can buy a $1700 Boom Vader and register it on the road, or move all the way up to an FXS for 9K. There's a huge gap in the market for legal, beginner electric motorcycles. I believe this gap being filled would help both with the adoption of electric motorcycles in general and with the problem motorcycling as a whole is having bringing in new riders.

At any rate, there are plenty of small entry level bikes available in the US, but they're all gas. I can buy a bike for 4-5K from almost any major manufacturer, but I can't say the same for electrics. That's all I'm getting at.

Indian makes a very cheap and very entry level electric motorcycle.

Again, this is part of the problem I'm talking about. We have dirt cheap toy bikes, and 9K full electric motorcycles, but nobody is serving the actual entry level 4-6k price segment.

There are actually quite a few bikes in that area, just not from ICE manufacturers. You've got Super Soco, Sur-ron, Horwin, Kolter, and Niu to name a few.

NIU is a siginficant player in electric P2Ws (powered 2-wheelers), but all the models currently being sold are 50cc equivalents limited to 45 km/h; they have announced the NIU RQi-GT (motorcycle form factor, 30kW, 7kWh battery), but AFAIK it isn't sold yet.
SuperSoco all have motors below 4kW, so I'm discounting them -- top speed is 95 km/h which isn't sufficient for motorway commuting.
The Sur-Ron Storm Bee does have the power, but not the cruising speed (top speed is 110 km/h), and certainly not the range; also it's a dirtbike, so not an optimal form factor (dual-purpose works well for urban commuting; full dirtbikes have too much suspension travel IME).
Ditto Horwin: There will apparently be more powerful bikes, but there even specs available for them yet. They're not currently selling anything >5kW. Ditto Kolter.

Now, it can be argued that the 30BHP I mentioned is overkill -- on an e-motorcycle, the torque matter more.
True; however, 5kW is far too low for my taste. I want any motorcycle I own to be able to accelerate out of its own way (and more importantly, out of the way of a 2-ton 400BHP SUV with attentive driver). 5kW doesn't get you there, not when you're already at 70mph. So maybe 15kW (~20BHP) is enough, but certainly nothing less, and given how cheap electric motors are, the difference in component costs between a 15kW and 20kW is small.
There is also a perception issue; riders who today commute on a Kawa Z400 / Honda NC700X ( (~50HP), aren't going to replace it with something with a 10th of the power. And IMO that's most of the accessible market, at least initially. People who currently don't ride at all are highly unlikely to do motorway-speed commutes just because an electric bike is available. Again, This isn't about pure-urban moped replacement.

All that said, all the companies above (apart from NIU & Evoke) are new in the field, not established motorcycle companies -- IMO most riders wouldn't buy a vehicle from them they need to rely on daily (myself included).
I also had some hopes for the Kymco RevoNEX, but it now looks like the production bike will be a full-on halo sportbike to help sell mopeds & scooters, not a  mid-power bike in its own right (it's even going to be manufactured in Italy, because the market is Europe, apparently).

I don't think bikes built to this entry level price point are going to compare to the Z400 or NC700X. They are obviously going to have less power and range, just like how the Zero S offers less power than some bikes you can get at its price point.  Likewise I expect the REVONEX to be closer to Zero's price points than the 4-5k range. 

I don't expect any electric bike for this price to be a proper freeway cruiser, and there would be little point as their batteries would not be big enough to have decent freeway range. The point of filling this price range is to have an entry point for new riders or people with less range needs, not to magically make a cheap ebike that competes with bikes twice its price.

Discounting bikes with smaller motors is missing the point entirely. The grom only makes 9.7HP and it's an incredibly popular starter bike. We don't need excessive power at the entry level.

I do agree that most people are not going to even consider getting a bike from these emerging brands, especially because they don't have a local support network for repairs. Broad e-moto adoption is not going to happen until these established and well known motorcycle companies have their own offerings, or these fledgling manufacturers grow enough to get mass recognition and a robust service network. Zero is getting there, and Energica is growing too, but we need much more, and again, we need the beginner bike price points to be covered.

[TheRan]

Again, this is part of the problem I'm talking about. We have dirt cheap toy bikes, and 9K full electric motorcycles, but nobody is serving the actual entry level 4-6k price segment.

They are, as I mentioned. Yes they don't perform as well as a base level Zero or as well as you want but that's what happens when you lower the price. What you're after is something that's simply not possible, a base level Zero at half the price. Most of the manufacturers I mentioned (perhaps all of them) are Chinese and we all know they have the lowest costs so you're not going to be getting better than those at the same price.

[Crissa]

As long as a good battery sells for $6K, you won't, either.

You can make batteries of any size built your price point. I don't expect a $5K bike to have the same 3.6KWH as a $9K zero FXS. . Likewise I don't expect it to have the same 20kw motor or 85mph top speed. Concessions have to be made to meet the price point. Just like how a $4K Honda Supercub can't compete with a $9k CB650R.

There' a huge gap beause none of those 'beginner' motorcycles sell well.

You can't buy a road-legal beginner bike from any of the manufacturers.  They all fail emissions or something.  That's because they're compromises.

Electric bikes have that, plus having an expensive battery.

-Crissa

[caza]

As long as a good battery sells for $6K, you won't, either.

You can make batteries of any size built your price point. I don't expect a $5K bike to have the same 3.6KWH as a $9K zero FXS. . Likewise I don't expect it to have the same 20kw motor or 85mph top speed. Concessions have to be made to meet the price point. Just like how a $4K Honda Supercub can't compete with a $9k CB650R.

There' a huge gap beause none of those 'beginner' motorcycles sell well.

You can't buy a road-legal beginner bike from any of the manufacturers.  They all fail emissions or something.  That's because they're compromises.

Electric bikes have that, plus having an expensive battery.

-Crissa

Huh? You can buy road-legal beginner bikes from most moto manufacturers in this price range. Honda has a range of bikes from 125-500cc in this price range. So does Kawasaki, Yamaha, and of course the subject of this post, Royal Enfield! Maybe they aren't the biggest movers in the market, but they sell well enough for them all to continue making them.

And again, bikes like the Sur-ron, Huck, Onyx, Monday Gen7 all show  that you can build a bike to the price range. And aside from Sur-ron these are all small american operations. A big moto company would undoubtedly be more efficient at manufacturing and could re-use a lot of parts they have for other bikes to reduce costs. And there's clearly a demand for electric motos at this price range because the Huck, Onyx, Sur-Ron and Gen7 are pretty consistently sold-out. A lot of people are excited about electric motos but want something they can actually afford to start out with. This is a hugely growing market and should be taken advantage of by actual motorcycle companies instead of only being sold as off-road ebikes that people are absolutely buying to ride on public roads.

Or look at it from the other direction, take something the CSC city slicker and add $2500 worth of component upgrades to make it a more capable more reasonable starter bike.

I don't know if you're trolling me or what, as I already said you can build a battery to any price point, as the bikes I just listed do. By your argument zero's can't exist because a 50kwh tesla battery pack is too expensive and anything less is too big of a compromise.

Again, this is part of the problem I'm talking about. We have dirt cheap toy bikes, and 9K full electric motorcycles, but nobody is serving the actual entry level 4-6k price segment.

They are, as I mentioned. Yes they don't perform as well as a base level Zero or as well as you want but that's what happens when you lower the price. What you're after is something that's simply not possible, a base level Zero at half the price. Most of the manufacturers I mentioned (perhaps all of them) are Chinese and we all know they have the lowest costs so you're not going to be getting better than those at the same price.

Again, my problem with the bikes you mentioned has nothing to do with how powerful they are and everything to do with them not being available in the american market.  Though Niu is starting to partner with some american dealers, so it looks like that will change at least for those scooters. Unfortunately in america the Niu is going to be massively ignored just because it's shaped like a scooter and we have a weird cultural hangup about that.

If the SuperSoco and the Horwin were available here I'd be holding them up as great examples of what we need more of. But as of now they might as well be vaporware to the american market.

[Crissa]

The city slicker would not be a competent bike with two grand more of stuff on it.

It would still be underpowered and under ranged compared to any ICE bike in the price range.

The Honda offerings are all 'limited release' or a scooter.  And a Grom is definitely not a beginner bike.  That you had to go up to 500cc shows how not a beginner bike they are.

Actually buying a new or even recently new bike in the lower CC range is harder than buying a Zero.

-Crissa

[TheRan]

Again, this is part of the problem I'm talking about. We have dirt cheap toy bikes, and 9K full electric motorcycles, but nobody is serving the actual entry level 4-6k price segment.

They are, as I mentioned. Yes they don't perform as well as a base level Zero or as well as you want but that's what happens when you lower the price. What you're after is something that's simply not possible, a base level Zero at half the price. Most of the manufacturers I mentioned (perhaps all of them) are Chinese and we all know they have the lowest costs so you're not going to be getting better than those at the same price.

Again, my problem with the bikes you mentioned has nothing to do with how powerful they are and everything to do with them not being available in the american market.  Though Niu is starting to partner with some american dealers, so it looks like that will change at least for those scooters. Unfortunately in america the Niu is going to be massively ignored just because it's shaped like a scooter and we have a weird cultural hangup about that.

If the SuperSoco and the Horwin were available here I'd be holding them up as great examples of what we need more of. But as of now they might as well be vaporware to the american market.

And like I said, America isn't the only market that matters and is perhaps the one least suited to lower performance bikes. Even if they did bring the bikes to America they probably wouldn't sell that well. That's America's problem, not the manufacturer's. For a bike to sell in America it needs Zero performance and you're simply not going to get that at a much lower price.

Outside of America, a very large market (bigger I would guess), those types of bikes serve their purpose well and hit the price point between things like the CSC Slicker that shouldn't even be on the road and base model Zeros.

[caza]

The city slicker would not be a competent bike with two grand more of stuff on it.

It would still be underpowered and under ranged compared to any ICE bike in the price range.

Define competent.

Every single electric motorcycle on the market is underpowered and under-ranged compared to ICE bikes in its price range. This is obvious, documented, and I even said so multiple times in this thread. I'm not saying a $5000 version of the CSC would be comparable to a $5000 ICE bike, just that a $5000 electric motorcycle is a need that is not being met.

The Honda offerings are all 'limited release' or a scooter.  And a Grom is definitely not a beginner bike.  That you had to go up to 500cc shows how not a beginner bike they are.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Lots of people buy groms as beginner bikes, lots of people buy 300, 400 and 500cc bikes as beginner bikes. The key is that most major manufacturers have bikes in this price range, regardless of if you call them beginner or not. But no emotos.

Actually buying a new or even recently new bike in the lower CC range is harder than buying a Zero.

Just plain untrue in my experience. My local powersports dealer has brand new lower CC bikes in stock from multiple manufacturers, but if you want a Zero that's not a demo bike you have to order it. Every dealer experience is different, but there is no shortage of low CC, low price bikes available.

And like I said, America isn't the only market that matters and is perhaps the one least suited to lower performance bikes. Even if they did bring the bikes to America they probably wouldn't sell that well. That's America's problem, not the manufacturer's. For a bike to sell in America it needs Zero performance and you're simply not going to get that at a much lower price.

Outside of America, a very large market (bigger I would guess), those types of bikes serve their purpose well and hit the price point between things like the CSC Slicker that shouldn't even be on the road and base model Zeros.

Again, electric bikes in this price range do have the potential to sell in america as evidenced by these "off-road" ebikes selling out constantly. There is a market for this, it just isn't being served by moto companies. Is that market as big as other areas of the world? Obviously not. America is not the only market that matters, but it's the subject I'm talking about specifically. 

If americans didn't want to spend $4-5k on an e-moto, Onyx, Sur-Ron, Monday, and Huck would all be out of business instead of expanding rapidly. The market is there, even if it's smaller than other countries. It just isn't being met by anyone making DOT approved bikes. That's not an American problem, it's a manufacturer problem, missing an opportunity for growth.

[TheRan]

And like I said, America isn't the only market that matters and is perhaps the one least suited to lower performance bikes. Even if they did bring the bikes to America they probably wouldn't sell that well. That's America's problem, not the manufacturer's. For a bike to sell in America it needs Zero performance and you're simply not going to get that at a much lower price.

Outside of America, a very large market (bigger I would guess), those types of bikes serve their purpose well and hit the price point between things like the CSC Slicker that shouldn't even be on the road and base model Zeros.

Again, electric bikes in this price range do have the potential to sell in america as evidenced by these "off-road" ebikes selling out constantly. There is a market for this, it just isn't being served by moto companies. Is that market as big as other areas of the world? Obviously not. America is not the only market that matters, but it's the subject I'm talking about specifically. 

If americans didn't want to spend $4-5k on an e-moto, Onyx, Sur-Ron, Monday, and Huck would all be out of business instead of expanding rapidly. The market is there, even if it's smaller than other countries. It just isn't being met by anyone making DOT approved bikes. That's not an American problem, it's a manufacturer problem, missing an opportunity for growth.

The performance requirements for an off road bike are very different to those of a road legal bike. The Sur-ron will hit about 45mph (and you wouldn't want to go much faster than that on one) and weighs 47kg, the Super Soco TC Max is probably one of the fastest bikes in its price range and can just about hit 60mph at 85kg. That sort of performance isn't going to sell in America for on-road use. It's not just that it won't be fast enough compared to other vehicles on the road (because apparently everyone goes over 80mph on the highways) but also Americans want their bikes to be able to hit 60mph in under 4 seconds. On the other hand in places like Europe you have plenty of people on A1 and A2 class bikes and speeds are lower so an A1 equivalent electric bike fits in nicely.

In America a 650 twin is considered a slow beginner bike, in the rest of the world that's more speed than you could ever need and many people will happily ride even slower bikes.

[gregj]

Ok after not quite a year of constant research and reviewing articles searching for an emotorcycle ( NOT  a scooter) to use as a supercommuter I have come to these conclusions.
Note I live in Australia and NOT in a metro area.
I have decades of motorcycle racing and street and dirt riding on ICE motors and working and modifying same. I am a handling fanatic, not a power fanatic.
Almost all current emotorcycle are as described in the above posts are either:
Designed as low speed , no handling, but extremely practical city street only vehicles. They are a worth buying item if you only travel on city streets and no motorways.
Or superbike wannabe ( Ok actualbe's) with power and speed more suited to a track than a street. Just like the ICE sports bikes. Designed to be fast toys , not commuters in any real sense at all.
Or, of course, the dirt biased motorcycles. Here there is plenty of genuinely well designed and capable bikes that actually do what they are designed to do and do it well. Unfortunately most cannot be registered . Well not in Australia anyway ( lets not get into the whole stupid compliance plate thing for the present).

Zero was here and makes VERY nice emotorcycles, but once imported into Aus are ridiculously expensive ( read twice the US price) , so you get a bike with the road performance of a 250-400 ICE for the price of a 1000ccICE. Moot point really, as they have withdrawn leaving Aussie Zero owners in the lurch, which means their brand here will take decades to recover, if it does.

I my opinion any emotorcycle manufacturer should completely ignore the US as a market determinant. The motorcycle market there primarily ignores smaller bikes completely for the street. The rest of the world doesn't. Stop wasting time trying to cater for a market that thinks renewable energy is a Communist plot ( Along with pretty much anything else that isn't made in the US). That plus the US has already got Zeros, which are good AND locally produced. If Tesla gets in on the act as well, the rest of the world is going to have to compete on price, quality, availability, technology, and local support.

The ICE competition for a super commuter is 125cc and up. Good 125cc motorcycles do over 100kph easily and get ridiculous fuel economy ( even on a race track at race speeds). I can tell you that both the Yamaha YZR125R and the Honda CBR125 4 strokes will do 110kph and do it all day and reliably. They cost around $6000AUD new here. That is what an emotorcycle is competing with. They weigh 120kg in stock street trim with fuel. Getting to 100kph takes a while, but you get there before a semi treats you as a speed hump.

Move to the 250's and 100kph is a doddle. Not much dearer and much more performance. That is the supercommuter opposition.

Now several quite nice emotorcycles come close, but don't make the safety speed ( 100kph in Aus). Just a tad more top speed and they are there AND at a good price. Thinking here of Super Socco TC max type bikes. Sooo close.

I keep seeing "announcements" of bikes that are going to be it, but so far, every one has fallen short. Either not turning up at all or, when they get here , the performance is hype.
I still hold hope. Most likely it will NOT be from a European or US manufacturer , but Indian or Chinese or, if we are lucky, Korean Tawianese or Japanese.

  It is only a decade or so that it was said that renewable energy would always be more expensive that fossil fuel sources. Now it is much cheaper. That same will almost certainly be true for emotorcycles.

I wait in hope.

[Crissa]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind a bike that topped out at 60, but I'd have to pass the same tests as the rider on the bike that tops out at 120.

*shrug*

If you put two grand of parts on a city slicker, it would still be too slow for anything but the most urban streets and cost more than the equivalent ICE.  You're asking to basically put an ICE bike on top of it.

-Crissa