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Author Topic: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.  (Read 3366 times)

DonTom

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more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.
« on: October 24, 2020, 10:27:19 AM »

See here.

"You read that right: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution."

-Don- Auburn, CA
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Richard230

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Re: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2020, 07:19:33 PM »

You can always cherry pick your arguments and come with a solution that fits your agenda. Then use Ad hominem attacks on your opponents.
The truth about electric cars and pollution is somewhere in the middle. Short term, electric cars pollute more than ICE cars. (Actual amount of pollution depends on how ALL components of the car are sourced.) Long term, electric cars have the potential to pollute less.
 
What will decrease pollution right away is to pollute less. Don't buy a new car, electric or ICE. :) Don't buy anything you don't really need. Under no circumstances buy anything that you only use once and then throw away. You have lots of old clothes, use them. Buy quality stuff. Don't extend your house.
Use less energy. Walk or cycle to work instead of using your truck. Reuse, fix instead of replacing. Take local holidays.

And retire.  ;)
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

DonTom

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Re: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2020, 09:44:00 PM »

https://www.energyandpolicy.org/lesser-climate-denier-attacks-electric-vehicles/
Thanks for that!  Exactly what I was looking for. I also assumed the  article in my OP was BS.

I posted it here to get the truth.

-Don-  Auburn, CA
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valnar

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Re: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2020, 12:06:01 AM »

See here.

"You read that right: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution."

-Don- Auburn, CA

If you really want a hoot, post that on https://electrek.co/.  You'd be lucky if they didn't burn down your house.  ;)
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DonTom

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Re: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2020, 12:18:18 AM »

If you really want a hoot, post that on https://electrek.co/.  You'd be lucky if they didn't burn down your house.  ;)
The reason I posted it here was because I received that in another forum from some anti-EVers. I assumed it was BS, so I posted it here to get the truth.

I knew few (if any) in this forum would agree with the link I posted here.

-Don-  Auburn,  CA
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Fran K

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Re: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2020, 04:10:39 AM »

Don,  It is not all that bad an article.  I guess his main point is that the ice engines are getting cleaner, much cleaner.  Sure it seems he cherry picks comparing fuel burned in automobiles and trucks and the associated emissions at the refinery (not in actual production or transportation or maintance).  I think he takes the projected electric vehicles and uses such emissions in the case those electric vehicles do not come to pass.  Whether he is using payload or human occupancy or some other metric is not explained.  Exactly how much emissions the various Government entities (think air craft carrier group for instance) count in his big picture writing is up for speculation.

There was a you tube video I watched during the winter that attempted to kind of answer this sort of question though I don't recall if it was dollar cost or environmental impact and in coal mostly for energy to power the grid it was like 75,000 miles for a compact car's higher impact to create for electric and lower impact to use broke even with the gasoline one.

As for the second article linked in this thread I followed a link about 5 year high temperature and it was an article about drout certainly not up to scientific footnote expectations.
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caza

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Re: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2020, 09:17:31 AM »

Both articles were interesting reads. I do think EV's are less green than we would like to believe.

I was surprised that  Lesser's article didn't use mining as part of his argument. To me the biggest argument against EV's being more green and ethical is that we require precious minerals that both cause huge emmissions to mine and the mines themselves often have huge humanitarian, labor, and political issues. See Musk's recent tweet saying "We will coup whoever we want! Deal with it!"  Of course, if he were to speak out against lithium or cobolt mining, he would have to also acknowledge issues with fossil fuel mining.

Lesser's article is spot on when it comes to subsidies though. Right now, they certainly are only benefiting the wealthy, and thus the poor have to pay more when it comes to the road. The flipside of course is that if we do not subsidize EV's it will be much harder to grow them to the point of being affordable for the masses. I think part of the solution is to give more subsidies to cars with cheaper sticker prices, to encourage automakers to not only focus on top of the line models. The model 3 was a bait-and-switch in this regard, as a "30k" car that was only available in higher trims.

Even taking his clearly bias and not peer-reviewed numbers at face value, they're only going forward 30 years. It took 100 years to get gas cars to where they are today. If we look at a similar timeline,  100 years from now we could have a 100% clean energy grid, and have mined enough resources to depend on recycling precious minerals instead of mining for them. This is when the sustainability of EV's is truly green. It is certainly not a perfect process to get there.

Perhaps the biggest issue with the article is his conclusion: In his estimation it's a net neutral effect in 30 years, so let's not even try. He proposes no alternative but to go with the status quo and continue to destroy the planet.

The bigger truth, that Lesser would absolutely not write about, is that to be truly green we need to reduce consumption. Less overall new cars, less miles driven, more conversions and restorations of older cars to increase their lifespans, more public transportation, etc.  Even on the smallest scale, it's better to convert your old bicycle into an e-bike than to order a Super 73, and it's greener than that to just ride your existing bicycle. The key to a greener existence is not just being sustainable but on reduction, and that's a truth that even most EV companies do not want to admit. If his article was titled truthfully, it would be "more new cars and trucks will mean more pollution"
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Frank

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Re: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2020, 03:57:26 PM »

There is not an infinite supply of fossil fuels and all the easily extractable oil is already being accessed.  How can we build any kind of future on energy technology that is not ultimately sustainable?

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk

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caza

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Re: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2020, 04:49:05 AM »

The opponents of EV's are not worried about sustainability. They just want to get rich off gas for as long as they possibly can. They don't want to look at alternatives until every last drop of oil has been pulled out of the earth and profited from.
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Oldun

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Re: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2020, 05:03:03 AM »

I certainly did not buy the LW because of greeness or sustainability. I bought it for smooth and quick.

Also, IMO, people are the biggest source of pollution. Fewer people = fewer pollutants. So when some Greenie Ecofreak would berate me about my V8s' emissions, the short answer was "so why are you still here? Save the planet, launch yourself into orbit or do the VHEMT thing"* :-)

(* "The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (VHEMT) is an environmental movement that calls for all people to abstain from reproduction to cause the gradual voluntary extinction of humankind." Yeah, good luck.
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Crissa

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Re: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution.
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2020, 06:35:21 AM »

The problem with the 'fewer people == less pollution' is that it skips the fact that a rich westerner produces more pollution than collectively thousands and thousands of other people.

It also lends undeserved credence to eliminationist bigots :/

-Crissa
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