ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: Richard230 on January 08, 2020, 08:57:40 PM
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Nice looking and would be great for urban usage, especially with its removable batteries, but a bit short on range and perhaps a little too pricey for what you get for the general motorcycle market. However, the real issue will be setting up a retail, distribution, repair and parts supply operation in the U.S., if they want to sell their vehicles here: https://electrek.co/2020/01/07/niu-rqi-gt-electric-motorcycle-unveiled-affordability/
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Hey, I already linked to it :P
-Crissa
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Hey, I already linked to it :P
-Crissa
And this is the reason why you don't put a click bait (and just plain false) title on your threads. Not only does it lead to reposts it does nothing to help people searching for it in the future.
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And this is the reason why you don't put a click bait (and just plain false) title on your threads. Not only does it lead to reposts it does nothing to help people searching for it in the future.
Niu is a Chinese manufacturer, and the keywords in the search string were correct afaik.
I mis-typed the manufacturer the first time; I was posting from my phone.
-Crissa
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And this is the reason why you don't put a click bait (and just plain false) title on your threads. Not only does it lead to reposts it does nothing to help people searching for it in the future.
Niu is a Chinese manufacturer, and the keywords in the search string were correct afaik.
I mis-typed the manufacturer the first time; I was posting from my phone.
-Crissa
But it's not a copy of the SR/F and probably not of the Arcimoto either (I'd never heard of those before, but a quick search shows it to be a three wheeler thing, not that unique). The way you wrote it made it sound like they'd made a clone or ripoff of them.
As for the keywords, I can't see them. While you may have tagged it with the right terms and it might show up in a search having that vague title doesn't help pick it out from a long list of search results.
Besides that there's just no need to click bait here, it's not like you're getting paid for every person that clicks on the thread.
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Richard literally commented in the thread I made.
Their bike is trying to have the same features, is described in their promotional materials the same way, as those two that began selling last year. So yes, they're a copy. Not an infringing one, but they're definitely aiming for the same market.
-Crissa
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I would also prefer that we not cast aspersions in a thread title. It influences web search ranking and gets fed into databases implying very fuzzy but onerous conclusions.
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What features, that are unique to the SR/F? The performance isn't the same, the range isn't the same, the styling isn't the same. The only thing they have in common is that they're electric motorcycles, if you're going to call that a copy then so is a Super Soco, or an Energica, or a CSC, or a Sur-ron, etc. In terms of specs (and probably pricing) its closest competitor will actually be a 7.2kW/h Zero S.
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All I can say is that my memory isn't what it used to be and that wasn't all that great at the time. Sorry about duplicating a thread subject. But there are so many electric motorcycles being announced on the internet, that it is hard to keep track of them all. ::)
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The always-online interactive TFT display... Basically all the electronic features of the SR/F. ABS, traction control, etc. No, not the performance. They describe it as an interactive appliance in the same way Zero describes theirs.
I was listening to what they said instead of just skimming to the performance details. Because that's what non-performance-oriented-people like Execs and well, nearly everyone who doesn't drive a manual vehicle, does. Which is also nearly everyone!
-Crissa
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The always-online interactive TFT display... Basically all the electronic features of the SR/F. ABS, traction control, etc. No, not the performance. They describe it as an interactive appliance in the same way Zero describes theirs.
I was listening to what they said instead of just skimming to the performance details. Because that's what non-performance-oriented-people like Execs and well, nearly everyone who doesn't drive a manual vehicle, does. Which is also nearly everyone!
-Crissa
And all of those things are unique to the SR/F? Plenty of bikes have TFT dashes and traction control these days. Niu's scooters have had TFT dashes for a while, perhaps even before the SR/F. My KTM Duke had one back in 2016. The vast majority of the features they've put into this bike were also available on their scooters, including the bluetooth connectivity (which my Duke also had) and cellular and GPS connectivity for tracking. It also has features that the SR/F doesn't have such as an adaptive headlight (perhaps they copied that from BMW), tyre pressure monitoring (also copied from BMW among others), and remote lock/unlock/start from a connected phone.
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Why would any single feature have to be unique to the SR/F for them to be copying it as a product?
-Crissa
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Because otherwise I can just say they copied those features from other companies, which I did. Of course I did so jokingly because suggesting that they copied any of those is absurd. The only things it has in common with the SR/F it also has in common with other bikes, and the SR/F has in common with those bikes. If it's a copy then so is the SR/F, and so are the bikes that the SR/F copied from, and so on until we get all the way back to the Daimler Reitwagen.
If you want to know what copying really is then go have a look at the Chinese clones of bikes like the CG125 and Honda Cub. Bikes that are near identical except for badges and minor component differences.
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Yes, every bike is a copy of a bike or collection of bikes before.
That's how development of technology works.
-Crissa
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Well if that's the way you view it (I view it more as inspiration than copying, but that's semantics) why feel the need to point it out? And why is it a copy of the SR/F specifically? Pretty much every feature on the bike has likely existed on another bike prior to it, that's a given with most bikes. Mentioning it would be useless and deciding which particular model it "copied" would essentially be random. It would be the same as if I said the SR/F was a copy of the Super Duke, it probably has just as much in common with it as Niu's bike does with the SR/F and there are probably a dozen other bikes I could replace the Super Duke with.
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...Because the SR/F and Arcimoto have been in development longer and released last year?
-Crissa
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So wouldn't it be more apt to say it's a copy of the Zero S? That came out before the SR/F.
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A Zero S has none of the features their sales guy was touting.
-Crissa
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It's closer in power, range, size, weight, performance, and probably price too. So it doesn't have a TFT dash, traction control, or GPS tracking, but why should those features make it a copy of the SR/F instead? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it should actually be described as a Zero S copy, I'm just trying to point out how nonsensical it is to call it a copy of any bike. Just call it what it is, a Zero S competitor. Just like how the SR/F is a competitor to the Livewire and Energica Eva.
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Because that's not how sales people and non-technical people get sold things.
Look at any advertising and you'll see specs last, if at all, and only to highlight where the model shines, not if it doesn't.
They're selling it as a smart bike, listing off the features it does have in common with the SR/F, not the ones that lag behind. Go. Watch the sales pitch. Sheesh.
-Crissa
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The first thing they mention on their site is the range and top speed, which is close to a 7.2 Zero S. Next up they mention the removable batteries, something the SR/F doesn't have. Next they mention the motor specs, which is again closer to the S. Then they go on to talk about the connectivity, bluetooth, GPS tracking, etc., which are all things that they have had on previous scooters. No one is trying to pitch it as an SR/F competitor.
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No one is trying to pitch it as an SR/F competitor.
Your not gonna win (DAMHIK) :-\
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No one...
...Except the vendor in their pitch showing that it has all the fancy electronics the SR/F has an then some.
But whatevs.
-Crissa
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Stuff that their scooters also have. You expect them to leave those features out just so you don't think they're copying the SR/F?
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Their scooters have traction control, GPS, and 5G connectivity?
-Crissa
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They have the tracking and connectivity. I don't think any have the traction control (understandable at such low power levels) but it's a common thing in many bikes other than the SR/F.
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Weird that you were comparing it to the Zero S and so intent on not comparing it with the bikes that have similar features...
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I don't think it's weird to compare it to the Zero S, you even said yourself in the other thread that it's a Zero S competitor. As I've said previously it's similar in performance, range, size and weight, and probably price. It has some things the S doesn't, like the traction control, GPS tracking, removable batteries, but the Zero will also have its advantages over the Niu like storage, aftermarket and replacement parts and servicing, an off road capable alternative, maybe faster charging (definitely with external chargers). Bikes don't need to be identical to be competitors, but they at least need to be similar and an SR/F isn't anywhere close.
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You guys mind me talking about the bike again? ;)
How heavy do you think are 7 kWh's of battery? Is it feasible to take them out to charge regularly?
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It's like carrying a couple cubes of sodas. Not easy, but not impossible.
-Crissa
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It's like carrying a couple cubes of sodas. Not easy, but not impossible.
I don't know what that means :) Let's rephrase: How heavy are the (in capacity) comparable FXS batteries? If I look at https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/#builds (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fxs/#builds), it looks like the (non-modular) 7.2 is 19 kg heavier than the modular 3.6.
Carrying 2 20kg batteries would be quite a workout :)
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I would guess around 15-20kg. Their scooter batteries are 11kg each but lower voltage and capacity, 65v35Ah and I would guess the RQi is going to be somewhere around 70-100v which would be 45-32Ah per pack (being 6.5kW/h).
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The Modular is heavier when you have the same power worth of batteries in it, tho.
I was comparing it to 24 12oz soda cans 'cause that's a common size to buy them in.
-Crissa
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I really don't get why everyone thinks this is going to be super cheap, just because their scooters are. The components used on those are much cheaper, they use 3kw and low hub motors, and the batteries are smaller. It's probably going to end up costing as much as a 7.2kW/h Zero and it wouldn't even surprise me much if it ended up costing more.
Their top scooter is £3200 for a 3kw hub motor and 60v70Ah. A Super Soco TC Max is £4250 for a 5kw mid motor and 72v45Ah. The RQi will have a slightly larger battery than the TC Max but with a 30kw motor and what looks to be significantly higher quality components across the board as well as much more tech.
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I really don't get why everyone thinks this is going to be super cheap, just because their scooters are. The components used on those are much cheaper, they use 3kw and low hub motors, and the batteries are smaller. It's probably going to end up costing as much as a 7.2kW/h Zero and it wouldn't even surprise me much if it ended up costing more.
Their top scooter is £3200 for a 3kw hub motor and 60v70Ah. A Super Soco TC Max is £4250 for a 5kw mid motor and 72v45Ah. The RQi will have a slightly larger battery than the TC Max but with a 30kw motor and what looks to be significantly higher quality components across the board as well as much more tech.
Niu makes >300K electric two-wheelers per year. That's over 2 orders of magnitude more than the largest e-motorcycle maker (Zero). If they decide that the time's ripe for large scale BEV bike production, they actually have the potential to getting far lower component costs due to economies of scale, and so achieving cheaper end-price BEV bikes. None of the large moto makers seem in any hurry to jump on the bandwagon, probably because they have their existing ICE bike businesses to protect... A company like NIU seems a natural candidate. Ditto for Kymco, since while they're not an EV company currently, a drivetrain-technology turning point may be the opportinuty for them to get into full-size bikes after being established in scooters/mopeds.
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Their scooters are cheap because they make a shit ton of them and they use low end components, they won't be making anywhere near as many RQi's and the component quality is significantly better. It also won't be using their scooter batteries as two of those would be 4.2kW/h and the RQi is 6.5 or 7kW/h, plus they've shown images of them and they're different. Sure, they have the potential to make a similar bike for significantly less than a Zero but not in its current form, they'd need to make something more like the TC Max.
Let me put it this way. Their scooters are on par with £1.5k Chinese scooters with £1.5k worth of motor and battery stuffed in them, the RQi is more like a £6/7k bike with £2.5k worth of motor, battery, and controller stuffed in it. If I had to bet my money would be on it costing around £8k, so about £2k less than a comparable Zero but still over double their most expensive scooter.
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Every motorcycle is going to consume ~4x as many cells as a scooter, though, which seems like something that will constrain production.
But yeah, it does look spiff.
-Crissa
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The scooter is 60v and 70Ah. That's gonna be 14 or 15 18650s in series (58.8v or 63v) and let's say they're 3.5Ah each, that's 20 in parallel (10 per pack). That means the scooter will have 280 to 300 cells in it.
The RQi is probably going to be around 70v and 90Ah or 100v and 63Ah (to get a 6.5kW/h capacity, I've also heard it's going to be 7kW/h but let's be generous). That comes out to around 432 to 442 cells.
Not only is that quite a significant difference in materials it's also going to add quite a bit to the cost. Around £6 seems to be the going rate for a Panasonic cell of that capacity, obviously they'll get them cheaper but even if we say it'll only be half that you're looking at about an extra £450 to power the RQi (and that's just the cost of the cells, nothing else factored in).
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I have always wondered how much labor it takes to wire up those individual cells. That must add substantially to the cost of assembling a battery pack for a vehicle, especially a motorcycle that likely uses a relatively weirdly shaped pack, compared with what is used in a car.
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https://www.niu.com/en/ces-2020/
What we know about the batteries is that the RQi uses NIU "4th Gen Lithium Battery Technology". It uses 18650 Panasonic Lithium-Ion cells, for total capacity of 3.25-3.5 kWh per battery. (Tesla mostly uses Panasonic cells, made in factory co-owned by Tesla and Panasonic.)
I have tested NIU scooters and I was impressed. I would not call them low quality. Fit and finish is great, power is good.
Hmm... Where did NIU explicitly state they're using 18650s in the RQi, which has a new battery design? Some cursory googling doesn't yield any mention of the specific cell form-factor; A single PR-type photo that looks like a stock photo does show cylindrical cells, but that's not quite enough to go on.
For large-(ish) battery modules and decent manufacturing volumes, I'd exoect pouch cells, like most other e-motorcycles.
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I'd forgotten about that image. With the rounded shape it actually looks like it's one of their scooter batteries. It also shows 13 in series and 6 parallel (doubled because they use two packs) so a 55v pack (close enough to 60v I guess) , however it would require ~5800mAh cells to equal the GT's capacity so it could be from one of the lower capacity models (one of them is about half so seems about right).
(https://global.niu.com/static/i18n/widget/en/ces-2020/images/rqi/rqi-p-5_0d94ca6b.jpg)
Scooter: https://www.niu.com/en/n-gt/img/con8-bike.jpg
RQi: https://global.niu.com/static/i18n/widget/en/ces-2020/images/rqi/rqi-p-6_17f21a37.jpg