ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: jwahl83 on March 10, 2021, 02:21:45 AM
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Hello, everyone. I am in the process of conducting research into Harley Davidson for a stock pitch and am closely examining their push into the electric motorcycle market as an area for future growth. I am curious to hear your thoughts on the Livewire and how it stacks up to other bikes in the space. For example, Zero's SR/S is competitively priced and I am curious as to why you think the Livewire is (or is not) superior. Is the price premium worth it to own a Harley? It seems as though Harley is attempting to target a new customer segment as the majority of HD's loyal customer base is committed to combustion motorcycles at least for now. In line with this, do you think there is the possibility for the broad appeal of an electric bike among riders broadly if the technology progresses?
Bottom Line: Please share any thoughts you have on the Livewire, why you bought one, and how you see the future of Harley Davidson electric motorcycles. I greatly appreciate your help. Feel free to comment on any aspect of this post.
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I can only tell you why I didn't just buy one and bought a Zero instead: price. It's 50% more than everything else out there (and actually twice the price of the SRF I just got) This is fundamentally its main problem. If it were priced within 10% of a Zero or Energica it'd quite possibly be first choice.
Couldn't care less about the Harley brand (if anything it's got way too many negative connotations), so it competes almost entirely on technical merit for me, and dealer backup (which is admittedly good). All the main leccy bikes have technical pros and cons but the Livewire was never even in the running because the price is a joke - if I had 30 grand lying around it's going on a Model 3.
Cas :)
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My personal feeling is that H-D just doesn't have their heart into electric motorcycles and was mostly making a political statement with the LiveWire. Also, I wouldn't be too surprised if they received a government grant to help fund the LiveWire's design and development. I think they continue to see their future making and selling ICE vertical twins.
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But surely they'd have just made something half-assed then? The LiveWire is top-three-contender of all the EV bikes available - it's really good.
Cas :)
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All reviews are positive for the bike and ride quality but price, range and lack of 6kw AC charging makes other bikes more practical.
I think Harley will come out with an electric adventure/scrambler option in the not too distant future.
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But surely they'd have just made something half-assed then? The LiveWire is top-three-contender of all the EV bikes available - it's really good.
Cas :)
I agree. The LiveWire appears to be a very well developed and designed electric motorcycle. So they probably received a nice big government grant to design the bike. ;) But with that pricing they really don't seem to want to sell very many of them. I also believe that the designers of the bike were hired guns and are likely not full-time H-D employees. But that is just my guess from keeping track of H-D bikes and business practices, going back to the early 1960's Topper Scooter. They have a long history of going in one direction and then dropping the product. The latest example is Buell, but there have been many other attempts to move on to other directions that they have killed off after a few years - and have lost their shirt in the process. ::)
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Original poster here. I appreciate the responses. I do not own a motorcycle personally however as an outsider, I agree that the cost of the Livewire is extremely difficult to justify. I read an article suggesting that its price was set in anticipation of lower sales volumes with the hope of driving up interest in the EV platform. From there they could offer potentially cheaper options down the road. Whether or not that will play out as they planned is to be determined as there are serious headwinds (battery tech etc.) facing the EV industry as it becomes more widely adopted. Would it be safe to say that if HD found a way to lower prices and fix aspects such as the offering level 2 charging it would be much more appealing broadly? I realize these are not easy fixes per se however I am just trying to roughly gauge if this is something existing customers care about or if there is just a lack of interest.
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Halve the price and add L2 charging and they'll fly off the shelves.
Cas :)
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Or double their DC charging.
Otherwise, it's the Porsche of electric motorcycles.
-Crissa
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I've done an extensive review on the LiveWire. I also have experience with most of the other makes and models out there by Zero and Energica. Here are the great things about the LiveWire:
- Top-tier thermal management on the batteries. Actively cools while riding due to clever engineering.
- Top-tier performance. Yes, it's capped at 114mph but it has the unusual trait of giving amazing power deep into low battery. I've not seen anything else compare at low charge state.
- Beautiful fit and finish. High-quality parts.
- The largest dealer network.
Here are some not-so-great things about it:
- Borderline nonexistent level 2 charging. 14 hours at a J plug? No thanks.
- Price. Obviously.
- Complete lack of storage and storage options. From H-D. Seriously.
Those are just the major pros and cons as I see them. I have tons more minor positive praise and gripes but those are the most important things I see when I look at the bike.
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I've done an extensive review on the LiveWire. I also have experience with most of the other makes and models out there by Zero and Energica. Here are the great things about the LiveWire:
- Top-tier thermal management on the batteries. Actively cools while riding due to clever engineering.
- Top-tier performance. Yes, it's capped at 114mph but it has the unusual trait of giving amazing power deep into low battery. I've not seen anything else compare at low charge state.
- Beautiful fit and finish. High-quality parts.
- The largest dealer network.
Here are some not-so-great things about it:
- Borderline nonexistent level 2 charging. 14 hours at a J plug? No thanks.
- Price. Obviously.
- Complete lack of storage and storage options. From H-D. Seriously.
Those are just the major pros and cons as I see them. I have tons more minor positive praise and gripes but those are the most important things I see when I look at the bike.
IMO, the pros are far from making up for the cons.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I would like to see the "Livewire" brand to become an independent company.
I'm not convinced that Harley is really able to transform the way they need to.
But: The Livewire is a great bike (even though it's far too expensive for my taste) and I also like what I saw in "Long Way Up".
So, the potential is definitely there and they know how to build bikes.
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I would like to see the "Livewire" brand to become an independent company.
I'm not convinced that Harley is really able to transform the way they need to.
But: The Livewire is a great bike (even though it's far too expensive for my taste) and I also like what I saw in "Long Way Up".
So, the potential is definitely there and they know how to build bikes.
Give'm time. Harley will passively allow (or even actively engage in) the Livewire to wither and then sell it for a fraction of their investment just like with MV Agusta.
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That sounds and appears to be exactly what they're doing.
Cas :)
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I would like to see the "Livewire" brand to become an independent company.
I'm not convinced that Harley is really able to transform the way they need to.
But: The Livewire is a great bike (even though it's far too expensive for my taste) and I also like what I saw in "Long Way Up".
So, the potential is definitely there and they know how to build bikes.
My recollection is that H-D did say last year during one of their corporate Rewired press releases that they planned to spin off their electric vehicle operations into a separate (but I assume, affiliated) company as part of a planned reorganization of the firm. Gotta keep those electrical customers at arms-length and away from the IC V-twin Faithful. ;)
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I would like to see the "Livewire" brand to become an independent company.
I'm not convinced that Harley is really able to transform the way they need to.
But: The Livewire is a great bike (even though it's far too expensive for my taste) and I also like what I saw in "Long Way Up".
So, the potential is definitely there and they know how to build bikes.
Give'm time. Harley will passively allow (or even actively engage in) the Livewire to wither and then sell it for a fraction of their investment just like with MV Agusta.
The MV Agusta purchase was one of Harley's greatest corporate financial achievements. ::) The bought the company for millions of dollars and sold it back to a Italian investors a couple of years later for something like one U.S. dollar - or was it one Lira? :o And then MV started to create new motorcycle models and are making money again. :) When it comes loosing money and investing in dead ends of their own creation, it is hard to beat the Motor Company. ::)
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"Harley-Davidson announces new chief electric vehicle officer"
https://electrek.co/2021/03/10/harley-davidson-announces-new-chief-electric-vehicle-officer/
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The plot thickens.
Cas :)
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I've heard tales of Livewires being sold for as little as $18k in areas where people have no interest in e-motos. If I were in that market segment, though, I would still hesitate based on H-D's history of introducing good ideas, models, or sub-brands like Buell, the V-Rod, and the XR and then not properly supporting them. There's no benefit from their huge dealer network if my discontinued electric bike is going to be sneered at when I try to diagnose issues or order parts. I would need to see a 5-year track record from Harley with trained and available mechanics to work on it before I would buy an electric from them.
EDIT: Changed the wording to be more accurate.
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"Harley-Davidson announces new chief electric vehicle officer"
https://electrek.co/2021/03/10/harley-davidson-announces-new-chief-electric-vehicle-officer/
As I was reading that news, I was listening to a financial report on the radio which was also making that announcement. However, the reporter said that H-D claimed that their new e-bike division was going to keep its distance from their ICE V-twin customers - and dealerships? ??? I guess this in no surprise for anyone following the history of the company. They are really concerned about upsetting their traditional customers who want to keep saving lives with lots of ICE noise. ::)
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But nearly all Harley's customers will be dead within 20 years...
Cas :)
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But nearly all Harley's customers will be dead within 20 years...
Cas :)
Well, there is that. Likely me too. :(
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But nearly all Harley's customers will be dead within 20 years...
Cas :)
Thanks for that! That's longer than my doctor gave me, you've really made my day :-)
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Over on Zero owners FB page there is one smoking away at a dealership down in FL.
The camera guy says it was just plugged up in the showroom and started smoking.
The fire department squirted some water (?) on it until it stopped smoking and that was the end of the video.
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The entire battery case was too hot to touch. Looked like one or more cells caught fire and were venting. Those firefighters were completely untrained as to how to deal with that. Thankfully no one got hurt. Unknown cause of the fire at this time.
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How would you cool the bike's battery pack?
Dipping it in water is one way, but not always possible.
-Crissa
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get the FUCK away from it
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As we said back in the day "That should buff out..."
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get the FUCK away from it
That's entirely unuseful information.
-Crissa
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get the FUCK away from it
That's entirely unuseful information.
Not if you stand right next to it!
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If you do not have the tools to deal with a potential 15kWh of exploding batteries you have to stand back and let it burn. It's basically ordinance at that point. Guess what? They detonate old ordinance.
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How would you cool the bike's battery pack?
Dipping it in water is one way, but not always possible.
-Crissa
Liquid N2 *maybe*?
That reaction (Lithium + O2) produces its own heat so good luck with this.
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If you do not have the tools...
I've tried to be polite, but what information do you think you're imparting?
I asked what the tools were, and you said 'run away'.
That's not a useful answer. That's entirely situational.
-Crissa
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Fuck if I care if you think you're polite. A few years ago Raul Rodriguez was trying to make the first EV to do the baja 1000. He tapped Brandon for charging. They had built several 36kWh battery packs they could hot swap into their Team Phoenix EV. Two of the packs resided in a pickup truck bed, pulling a 70kW generator which was charging both packs while driving.
The sole "fire protection" was a 1kWh fire extinguisher made of metal which was in the center of the window behind the cab, more or less linking the two packs.
I get that you don't have a solid grasp on how batteries work. When the adults say, "run", run. Worry about whose feelings your upsetting later.
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From our fire dept:
Call the fire dept. If you have one and can do so safely, use only Class B fire extinguishers.
From FEMA:
Secure a large, continuous and sustainable water supply — one or more fire hydrants or multiple water tenders. Use a large volume of water such as master stream, 2 1/2-inch or multiple 1 3/4-inch fire lines to suppress and cool the fire and the battery. Treat all conductive surfaces as if they are energized until they are proven to be safe.
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They have videos of some foam makers that they show smothering a few cells in controlled conditions. One of them claims to arrest the toxic vapors while, just water, won't.
But even in there own demonstrations it took a lot of foam just to put out even laptop sized batteries.
So water as a cooling agent could help if caught early enough but as it burns and creates shorts and it's own thermal heat source.
It's a tough situation.
Oldun, class C extinguishers are for live electrical fires. But most are A B C units anyway.
For what it's worth, the video had the guy yelling what Morgan said to kids getting too close to video the bike with their phones.
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Fuck if I care if you think you're polite. I get that you don't have a solid grasp on how batteries work. When the adults say, "run", run. Worry about whose feelings your upsetting later.
Yes, I do see that you have a little story, a few insults, a bit of profanity, and absolutely nothing to add to the conversation. How old are you, anyhow?
Thank you oldun. That's about the extent of my knowledge as well. The only way to extinguish it is to reduce the temperature, since the reaction needs only heat to continue, it has the two components that are reacting already inside the cells.
-Crissa
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It's a tough situation.
Oldun, class C extinguishers are for live electrical fires. But most are A B C units anyway.
Makes me wonder if I should call my fire dept if this happens!
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I looked at the Livewire, it seemed like a nice bike that would easily fulfill all of my needs. Both the Livewire and the Zero are sold within a few mikes of my home so I could compare them more or less side by side.
However, being a Buell rider who was disappointed by the way they dropped my all time favorite bike two years after I bought mine gave me reservations about buying one. Saw them do the same thing with Aermacchi and VRSC. Then add the additional cost of a Livewire and I could not pull the trigger on a Livewire and bought a ZERO SR/S.
No guarantees in life, but I want a dealer, brand, group, etc. that will support my purchase and I could not trust Harley to do that.
Hope Livewire makes it, it really seems like a nice bike, but I for one did not have enough confidence in the models longevity to purchase one.
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Then add the additional cost of a Livewire and I could not pull the trigger on a Livewire and bought a ZERO SR/S.
Great choice, IMO. The SR/S is my favorite bike from Zero and IMO, it has mostly advantages over the Harley LW.
I have been tempted on the Zero SR/S myself. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10597.msg97949#msg97949)
-Don- Reno, NV
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I hope that for the sake of those contemplating a Zero purchase, that Zero have changed their attitude to people seeking after-sales support in countries where there is not even one Zero dealer. That is a really big deal - lacking everything from service under warranty to parts availability to online diagnostics to simple 'talk-support' is why I will never buy a Zero unless and until they change their practice.
A lot of people badmouth Harley but over many years I've not been let down by the H-D dealerships in the UK, US, SA, NZ, Australia, and Canada when I went long distance touring and needed tires, parts and service. (A similar degree of support was always available in the US for my Boss Hoss bikes although they have nearly two orders of magnitude fewer dealers compared to H-D).
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...A lot of people badmouth Harley but over many years I've not been let down by the H-D dealerships in the UK, US, SA, NZ, Australia, and Canada when I went long distance touring and needed tires, parts and service. (A similar degree of support was always available in the US for my Boss Hoss bikes although they have nearly two orders of magnitude fewer dealers compared to H-D).
You toured UK, US, SA, NZ, Australia, and Canada, on a Livewire? :o
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A lot of people badmouth Harley
I was once a Harley hater as every model they had was junk, IMO. I have ridden many-none I could stand until I rode a Buddy's Road Glide Special. The next day I bought my Roadglide Ultra which is the most comply bike I have ever been on. It's my choice for long trips.
Harley does some little things right. Such as the oil dipstick that can be used on the sidestand or the center stand. A horn that will blow cars off the road (only stock horn I have not changed), Hydraulic valves that need no adjustments ever.
But they still do some small things wrong. Such as cheap rubber stems on the tires on a 35K$ bike. I will change that on the first tire change.
FWIW, I have taken a test drive on the LW. I didn't like it at all. But it sure looks very high quality to me. But I would take a Zero SR/S or any Energica over a LW any day for many reasons.
-Don- Reno, NV
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As someone who owned a Buell, I have to say that even though there is a massive world-wide H-D dealership network, it doesn't mean that they will all support the Livewire. Even the ones who sell it or have the mechanics to work on it may not be very supportive of it. I sincerely hope it becomes accepted by the company and all the dealers (same with the Pan America) but I wouldn't count on it. I'm waiting on an Energica to be delivered, so I know the dealer network is minuscule compared to the H-D network. But the number of good Buell-supporting H-D dealers was pretty minuscule too, even though it was an H-D product.
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As someone who owned a Buell, I have to say that even though there is a massive world-wide H-D dealership network, it doesn't mean that they will all support the Livewire.
Yep. Not even in the Tucson, AZ HD shop. Need to go to the Phoenix HD shop to buy the LW.
Same issue with the BMW electric scooter. No BMW shops in all of Nevada will work on it, not even in Las Vegas.
But IMO, HD should at least put the CCS charge stations in ALL of their shops, but they don't. The Reno HD dealer has such, but not in Carson City because the Carson City shop does not sell the LW. And all Zero shops should have a J-1772 plug outside.
-Don- Reno, NV
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San Jose BMW said the ordered a J-station last year, but I haven't been back to find out ^-^
-Crissa
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San Jose BMW said the ordered a J-station last year, but I haven't been back to find out ^-^
-Crissa
PlugShare still has it listed as coming soon. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/250270)
FWIW, that often means years away, or perhaps even never. I have seen "coming soon" for a couple of years at some places, such as the Safeway in LoveLock, (https://www.plugshare.com/location/281967) NV and a couple of other stores around Lake Tahoe that still show NO evidence of any such work being started.
One store at Lake Tahoe has the parking for such as well as the signs for "EV Parking Only" but that is all. Been that way for more than a year. See here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/248079)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Well, they said 'no' in 2019 and then they said they'd ordered it in 2020.
PlugShare doesn't know until someone updates it.
-Crissa
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PlugShare doesn't know until someone updates it.
-Crissa
Yep, perhaps that can be you. I put up several that were NOT even shown as a "coming soon". Such as Cisco Grove, CA. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/64737) My favorite place to charge between here and Auburn. Both J-1772 and CCS. And I have my choice to take Hwy 20 or I-80 from there.
-Don- Reno, NV
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It appears that you won't be seeing the H-D LiveWire electric motorcycle in the established Big Twin dealerships as part of their Hardwire plan. H-D plans to establish their electric motorcycle models in new and dedicated dealerships with a new brand name. That should help kill them off and keep the environmentalists out of the Faithful's sight. ::) The new brand will be hitting the streets on July 8.
https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/harley-davidson-spins-off-livewire-as-its-own-electric-motorcycle-brand.html
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I really hope this would mean a decrease in the MSRP to be competitive with Zero/Energicas. It just needs to be $10k Cheaper :P
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My concern with the H-D separate EV branding plan is that the cost of setting up a dedicated dealership from scratch is very expensive. It just won't work unless H-D bankrolls the entire operation from start to finish, including operating costs. Financially, it would be a lot better for them to set aside a specific area in established H-D dealerships to market their electric models and have dedicated salespeople, parts staff and technicians that would provide customer service for the electric bikes. Trying to develop stand-alone EV dealerships, especially when the market for electric motorcycles is so small right now, sounds like a recipe for financial failure. And you know how the H-D board hates financial failure. :o
Finally, a few established motorcycle manufacturers, like Yamaha with their Star cruiser brand, have tried to create separate premium or unique sub-brands and I don't believe that has ever worked out in the long-run. ???
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So if H-D is going to make the LiveWire and other electrics as a separate brand then I wonder if they would allow other dealers to sell the LiveWire and not take on the H-D line? For example if the local Zero/Energica dealer wanted to sell LiveWires would H-D allow that?
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So if H-D is going to make the LiveWire and other electrics as a separate brand then I wonder if they would allow other dealers to sell the LiveWire and not take on the H-D line? For example if the local Zero/Energica dealer wanted to sell LiveWires would H-D allow that?
Who knows? That would be a smart thing to do. But I wouldn't bet that H-D would allow that to happen. ??? They would probably think that it would dilute their brand. ???
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This is why 'establish dealerships' are net negative to an electric brand. :/
-Crissa