ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: Richard230 on March 01, 2021, 09:21:52 PM
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KTM wants to collaborate with Honda, Yamaha, and Piaggio regarding standardizing swappable batteries. But will the big guys actually be interested in using the idea for anything but city bikes? https://electricmotorcycles.news/ktm-signs-a-letter-of-intent-with-honda-yamaha-motor-and-piaggio/
BTW, hasn't someone done this before and now seems to be slipping away from the concept? ;)
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It's an irrelevant technical dead end.
Cas :)
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"The Consortium will start its activity in May 2021. The four founding members encourage all interested stakeholders to join the cooperation to enrich the consortium’s expertise."
That is wonderful but like you note I thought the 4 big Japanese players have been collaborating for a couple of years. Zero, Energica, and Harley can all have Consortium model or models. I see choices like this a standardardized set of battery modules and the proprietary competition to such.
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KTM wants to collaborate with Honda, Yamaha, and Piaggio regarding standardizing swappable batteries. But will the big guys actually be interested in using the idea for anything but city bikes? https://electricmotorcycles.news/ktm-signs-a-letter-of-intent-with-honda-yamaha-motor-and-piaggio/
BTW, hasn't someone done this before and now seems to be slipping away from the concept? ;)
All four Japanese manufacturers have already worked on standardizing batteries. There is an Indian company that makes a scooter with swappable batteries too, but they are not part of this agreement.
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There are also a few Chinese manufacturers that have swappable batteries, Nui at least uses the same batteries across all of their scooters as far as I know. One of the big brands does already have a "standard", I think it may be Honda, but it's only ever been used in one scooter and I think it was limited to China or Japan or something like that. I don't think a universal battery will ever happen, at least not one that doesn't require tools to remove and replace it and it would probably end up being comprised of multiple packs (like a bike that ran off a bunch of regular car batteries). And, while it could end up being used across multiple brands of bikes it will never be used in the majority of them, so instead of being limited to just one brand you'll be stuck with say 3 or 4 and there'll still be another 10 that don't use the same battery.
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Well, like I implied, it seems as if Zero is either moving away from their removable battery idea for technical reasons on the FX or it just wasn't selling well enough for them. ???
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It would be nice to have a set of standard "brick" form factors and I-V interfaces, kind of like AAA, AA, D, 9V, etc. so that we could refresh an EV every 5-8 years when the bricks age out or when new technology allows for increased range and power. Good for recycling too.
Some bricks could be small, for e-scooters and e-bikes, some larger to accommodate pouches and other technologies still without limiting overall battery shape, and some with coolant inlet/outlet for larger high-performance vehicles.
Cell balance is a bummer, so how about an independent BMS in each brick so they don't even have to be the same technology? And powerline communication technology to limit the number of contacts for CAN bus?
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For it to work it needs to cater to the lowest common denominator. If you allow all types of chemistries then the current draw and charging current can only be as high as what the weakest chemistry will allow. The voltage needs to be low enough for the least powerful bikes which means multiple packs for the more powerful bikes, and then multiples more for longer range bikes. We will never get a significant amount of manufacturers to agree on what is best and there is no "universal" best, and there's just too much variance in battery design to be able to cover it all with an easily swappable modular system.
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Well, like I implied, it seems as if Zero is either moving away from their removable battery idea for technical reasons on the FX or it just wasn't selling well enough for them. ???
I can infer that the military and police models are not a significant portion of the 2000 or so bikes they sell a year? They use the dual removable battery, 3.6 called at this point in time.
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None of the police bikes I've seen use the removable batteries.
-Crissa
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None of the police bikes I've seen use the removable batteries.
-Crissa
Same here. The ones that have seen are apparently based upon the S or DS models with the large battery pack.
Regarding industry standard swappable batteries, the biggest hurtle might be getting all of the manufactures to agree on a standard. And the other problem is finding room in a motorcycle chassis for a large battery capacity pack that can be removed in pieces to be recharged by the owner or replaced in the future.
I might add that the defective Power Tank box that was replaced in my 2014 S when it was first installed by my dealer had a BMS attached to its exterior according to the Zero technician that replaced the PT with a good one.
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Swappable batteries in an off-road competition bike make a LOT of sense. You don't want to be sitting on the sidelines recharging and miss a run. Having fully charged batteries ready to pop in for your next run makes a LOT of sense. They also don't have to be very big. For on-road use, I've learned those batteries are pretty damned heavy and not something someone could easily swap out without assistance. Still, I do believe the idea has merit. Swapping a battery out should take less time than charging, even at DCFC stations. Before batteries can be swappable, though, the manufacturers would have to agree on dimensions and connections, not unlike the batteries in modern automobiles.
At one time, if you owned a BMW motorcycle, all you had to do was get a "Battery for a BMW motorcycle." Didn't matter if it was a K bike, or an R bike, they all used the same battery. Same went for Harley Davidson. Sadly, BMW has followed the Japanese lead and you have to make sure you buy the "right battery" for the bike you own. I consider that a real PITA, but that's just me.
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The idea will simply never fly, at least, not in the "go to a petrol station and swap a battery" way that they seem to be so keen on. These batteries are worth thousands. I wouldn't swap something out of my bike - in a known condition, worth thousands - with some other random battery that promises to be a) working b) safe c) fully charged d) reliable. Where's the comeback if it explodes or turns out to only have half the charge it claims or is so worn out it conks out unexpectedly (and then explodes)? How much paperwork would I need to swap a thing worth £3000 to ensure that things went smooth in the event of mishap? What happens if you crash and bust it? What happens if it's stolen? I'm certainly not paying up front for a multi-thousand-pound device that I then swap with some random one after doing just 50 miles. It's all just a bit daft.
Competition use is a totally different kettle of fish. And even then I wouldn't be swapping with anyone else's batteries, I'd have bought and brought my own, in which case, I couldn't give 2 hoots about an agreed standard battery fitment, I'd want the exact best battery for my bike that could possibly be designed, without compromise.
Cas :)
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One has the same issue with propane tanks these days, you know. How do I know the tank is REALLY full? How do I know it's not leaking and will cause an explosion because the leaked gas was accumulating in my basement? How do I know the metal in the tank isn't fatigued and about to explode the next time it gets hit by the sun?
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Well, because you can hear it sloshing around, you can smell it leaking, they're incredibly simple and robust devices, and they're worth bugger all?
Cas :)
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The idea will simply never fly, at least, not in the "go to a petrol station and swap a battery" way that they seem to be so keen on.
Totally agree. I too know the anxiety around swapping a new propane tank only to get an expiring rust bucket. But swapping for charge is not the only or main reason for having an industry standard (I long ago dismissed swapping for charge, and wasn't considering that here).
I envision taking a longbrick out of a Zero, and the fancy extruded monstrosity out of a LiveWire, opening the cases and swapping around the individual standard bricks inside to replace bad ones, or move them to a powerwall, portable inverter, leaf blower, etc. Put them on an external charger, or a battery analyzer, etc.
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For it to work it needs to cater to the lowest common denominator. If you allow all types of chemistries then the current draw and charging current can only be as high as what the weakest chemistry will allow.
And for that, it should be possible to use MOSFET switching technology to bypass some current, or all of the current around a failed cell, and drop some percentage of over-provisioned voltage, in lieu of trying to balance cell voltages where a few millivolts difference is catastrophic. It would be similar to the way microinverters work better for solar arrays.
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Rivian has the patent on that technology, Curt.
The fact that batteries age and no one wants to being paying for them continually puts the nail in the bed of public swappable batteries.
And they can't be tiny cells in a big unit, either, as lithium batteries have more expansion and fireblock needs.
Because of the extra weight and loss of range, I don't really see cell-swapping to find much of a niche except in off-road and mopeds. There just is too much weight to the battery you're moving, which means it needs even more structure to attach it with and that's weight that could let you get from A to B.
-Crissa
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I might add that the defective Power Tank box that was replaced in my 2014 S when it was first installed by my dealer had a BMS attached to its exterior according to the Zero technician that replaced the PT with a good one.
From looking at images it appears that the Power Tank modules are the same as the 3.6 modular batteries for the FX/S, just with some hardware to mount them in the tank area.
For it to work it needs to cater to the lowest common denominator. If you allow all types of chemistries then the current draw and charging current can only be as high as what the weakest chemistry will allow.
And for that, it should be possible to use MOSFET switching technology to bypass some current, or all of the current around a failed cell, and drop some percentage of over-provisioned voltage, in lieu of trying to balance cell voltages where a few millivolts difference is catastrophic. It would be similar to the way microinverters work better for solar arrays.
I wasn't talking about defective or worn batteries but rather how different battery chemistries have different properties. For example what Zero uses is good for 1c charging according to them while Energica allows much higher current, and either of those batteries will allow much higher current draw than a bunch of 18650s used in a cheaper scooter. Every manufacturer has their reasons for choosing the batteries they do and there's no single type that will serve everyone's needs.
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Removable batteries might work well in the Polaris Ranger. They could use two or four Power Tanks to power the vehicle.
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Then again doesn't the Ranger have space to spare to just shove, like, twice as many batteries in it in the first place?
Cas :)
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Then again doesn't the Ranger have space to spare to just shove, like, twice as many batteries in it in the first place?
Cas :)
That is what I was thinking. But having removable batteries could also give options if someone wanted to lug extra batteries around for use when needed.
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Yes, I don't see how this matches up with the announcement tow years ago that all of the Big Four were cooperating (https://motorbikewriter.com/big-4-japanese-test-swappable-batteries/) on swappable batteries.
And of course, multiple moped & scooter makers are already doing this, including some of the largest (Gogoro, NIU, Kymco); we even have a locally designed scooter (manufactured in China) that has this and is popular with delivery fleets.
However, I don't see how any of it is relevant to motorcycles. They modules used in existing swap systems as well as the new standards are in the 1.5kWh - 2.6kWh (latter is Gogoro) range, and weigh 7-9 kg .
The swappability concept is closely tied to removability for charging -- a rider needs not just to move it a few feet to/from a vending machine, but also to take it out of the P2W parked on the street into an apartment or business for charging.
That puts an upper limit of probably 10kg or so on a pack.
A 125cc-equivalent commuter bike the Metacycle or Evoke Urban could maybe have 3-4 modules, but that's probably the limit w.r.t. extra space for packaging, cooling etc.
And that isn't a solution for packs for actual motorcycles, for which a swap solution is most sorely needed. Real sport-tourers are going to need packs north of 30KWh.
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At 30kWh, you aren't going to want to swap that pack. That would be 220 lbs in Tesla's new 4680 cells. That's not swappable.
-Crissa
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At 30kWh, you aren't going to want to swap that pack. That would be 220 lbs in Tesla's new 4680 cells. That's not swappable.
-Crissa
Precisely. Even if we get a 2x improvement in Wh/kg it's not going to be swappable (not manually, and noone's going to build swap stations with swap robots on backroads).
Which is why swappable batteries are a complete non-starter for longish-distance motorcycles (as opposed to mopeds & commuter scooters) for decades to come.
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Which is why swappable batteries are a complete non-starter for longish-distance motorcycles (as opposed to mopeds & commuter scooters) for decades to come."
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You are thinking solo rider not group ride with support vehicle. Or Enduro, Turkey run, hare scramble with gas stop.
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You are thinking solo rider not group ride with support vehicle. Or Enduro, Turkey run, hare scramble with gas stop.
At that point you're no different than someone at a race track, not a tourer.
-Crissa
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You are thinking solo rider not group ride with support vehicle. Or Enduro, Turkey run, hare scramble with gas stop.
At that point you're no different than someone at a race track, not a tourer.
-Crissa
I left out race track and moto x as I never have been involved in those events. The group ride is for me is a once a year memorial ride with an elected road captain. A pack of bikes having a place to charge up for all needing it would be a chalenge for the road captain.
Perhaps you have wandered around in the Blog section at Damon and found where the blogger states once the battery is fading it is time for a new bike.
Fran
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You are thinking solo rider not group ride with support vehicle. Or Enduro, Turkey run, hare scramble with gas stop.
At that point you're no different than someone at a race track, not a tourer.
-Crissa
I left out race track and moto x as I never have been involved in those events. The group ride is for me is a once a year memorial ride with an elected road captain. A pack of bikes having a place to charge up for all needing it would be a chalenge for the road captain.
Perhaps you have wandered around in the Blog section at Damon and found where the blogger states once the battery is fading it is time for a new bike.
Fran
On the swappable battery concept I can see where in some very limited applications it could work in the short term but as I've predicted for some time that what we have now with Li-ion won't cut it for the masses and trying to make a "standard" battery type now is foolish.
Wait for better solid state, which will be able to charge so fast there won't be a need to swap at all.
On the more important point of Damon let me say that vlog YT video post was from someone who knew very little about Damon and in the comments section he thanks a certain Forum member for his "help" making the video.
I don't know how Damon will build their battery cells into the Hyperdrive unit but "IF" they can identify individual bad cells through a BMS grid pattern then those cells "might" be able to be exchanged increasing battery life.
Bad pouch cells potted in Zeros and Energicas require all new batteries which is the main cost of the bike.
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The Energica cells are not potted, I think this has been discussed.
As to what this consortium comes up with if they can get along and better get BMW, Harley, etc to join in does not have to be only one size and shape and voltage module, at least the way I envision.
You are still going to have ediquite about multiple folks waiting in line to charge. Where will that go, there is one place actually a franchise, to get a haircut where you can walk in and sit down but if someone else does an on line reservation they go first apparently even if they are not present when you walk in. It says walk in's welcome on the door. I doubt it will be like one person gets the gas pump turned on and then they use the hose to fill multiple bikes.
Lithium is #3 on the periodic chart so the likelyhood of something vastly superior, how likely?
Sure electric is more effecient but gas and diesel gather needed oxygen that need not be carried.
There are some that envision real rapid recharge, not sure if that means a massive sub station or a battery array at the charger. Others envision approaching an outlet on lots of posts that hold up lights over the highway but low output.
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When Energica first came out they said their then $38,000 bikes would be future proof by being able to upgrade to newer and better batteries when they came out. At this time upgrading an older Ego isn't an option. But feel free to buy a new one.
Potted or not is by far the least important point I was making in regards to your Damon reference. The vloger either doesn't know or doesn't understand the benefits to the Hyperdrive system and it's purpose for future motorcycle types.
There are fasteners all along the edges. I can't confirm at this time but I would say the case should be able to be opened (at a service center) and have at least some of the drive components replaced if maybe not individual cells.
The problem with Li-ion isn't the Lithium it's the liquid electrolyte that expands, gasses, bursts and burns. It also is what negatively effects the range and charging speed and discharge rate in temperature extremes.
Thus solid state cells without the liquid electrolyte will be used in most all applications from a safety aspect alone.
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The way I foresee it panning out is - power density is likely to win out over recharge time. At the end of the day - literally - people are generally going to return home, and that's where they're going to want to recharge, for the cheapest electricity, and they've got all night to do it. I think this would lead to fast chargers being positioned as things to help you go on long journeys, so we'll see large banks of them popping up on motorways, and substations to distribute the colossal power requirements to them. If people are generally going to either overnight charge or expensively fast-charge on trunk roads then we're likely to see a general desire for an increased overall range to avoid the relative hassle of a charge stop in the first place. "Slow" AC chargers are going to stagnate out-and-about because there's little use-case for them - because they mean a car takes up a bay for a long time they just can't get the throughput they need from them, so they'll likely all become "destination" chargers where people are going to actually stop rather than just somewhere along a route.
Tesla is more or less directly pursuing this strategy, with every battery update storing more power in the same volume, and the supercharger network taking direct care of long-range customers.
Solid state is the Great Saviour but it won't be ready in time for the 2030 ICE ban in the UK (for example), and in the meantime "normal" battery tech advances slowly and incrementally; I predict a 33% increase in range for the same volume and weight over the next 10 years or so, though that will largely be irrelevant to cars and of more interest to PTWs which are the backbone of personal transport for most of the world.
Cas :)
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I have to agree with Cas, but what he doesn't mention is what anyone living in a multi-unit apartment or condominium will do to recharge their EV. While there may be the possibility of options where apartments have a dedicated garage, you won't find that feature on very many high-rise condos in dense urban areas. So that would indicate the need for EV rentals with fast on-road or vacation destination charging stations to keep them running.
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Swapping packs will always have lower power density and reliability.
They'll find some use in scooters and race bikes, but... Those two issues have always stopped them from being used elsewhere.
Motorcyclists want density and reliability and so they will never be happy with older swapping tech. Bikes just don't live long enough, either, statistically.
-Crissa
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I have to agree with Cas, but what he doesn't mention is what anyone living in a multi-unit apartment or condominium will do to recharge their EV. While there may be the possibility of options where apartments have a dedicated garage, you won't find that feature on very many high-rise condos in dense urban areas. So that would indicate the need for EV rentals with fast on-road or vacation destination charging stations to keep them running.
There's a huge elephant in the room over this and it basically needs spelling out. "POOR PEOPLE WITHOUT POSH HOMES WON'T BE DOING MUCH CAR OWNING ANY MORE". There. I said it.
Cas :)
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Poor people without homes don't do much car owning to begin with.
-Crissa
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Zero has been finding that using several modules of different age runs into problems charging which just wears out one of the modules more quickly.
Their 14.4 monolith is actually four such modules, and the Power Tank is another module. They used to make three-module bikes, like mine.
-Crissa
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I think DCFC charge times in cars & motorcycles will improve so much within a few years that swapping batteries will pretty much only exist in either the off-roading market or on shorter range (20-ish mile range) vehicles.
If your car can accept 200 miles of range in 5 minutes then swapping batteries doesn't sound all that appealing.
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I'd be happy with 100 miles in 30 minutes meself.
Cas :)
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Being happy with 100 miles in 30 minutes puts you in the minority for sure. Right now, Energica models & LiveWire do that but it's hardly convenient. Planning a road trip from Atlanta to Destin, FL on Abetterrouteplanner.com on my Ego just about doubles the travel time from 6 hours to 12 hours compared to a combustion motorcycle.