Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[odedmaz]

Slow reverse is a great idea, making electric power even more versatile.

[protomech]

Yes, we all want fast charging.  Charging rate is the #1 stumbling block to EV adoption.  (price is a close 2nd)

Regarding Tesla superchargers: Tesla batteries operate at a nominal voltage of 375 Volts.  Zeros could only use that if the charging battery status was somehow different from the running status.  And it would take a minimum of 4 of Zero's batteries to get that high.  3 won't do it.

I would also like to see another design instead of "commuter vehicle".  I'd like to see a cruiser, especially with a lower seat height for shorter people.  (Not for me, I'm 6'0", but have friends who want a Zero but haven't bought one because it's too tall.)

Tesla superchargers can theoretically output down to 50V DC, and supply 210A continuous (300-350A for short periods). This could theoretically charge a ZF12.5 Power Tank bike from 20% to 80% - 55 highway miles - in about 15 minutes.

Today this isn't ideal for a few reasons, but things are rapidly improving.

1. Tesla is largely building out SC stations with 100 mile gaps along interstates. Zero's largest capacity bike doesn't quite have the range to do this today at highway speeds; however it's likely Tesla will backfill these stretches as the launch of the Model 3 approaches. I expect we'll see heavily trafficked routes with 20-30 mile gaps between stations, and software to route you to the nearest available station as utilization increases.

2. Zero could build a larger capacity bike using their existing battery technology. An 8 brick 22 kWh bike would have approximately 220 Ah; couple the larger battery with a Vetter-style fairing and you would have 200+ miles of highway range. It would be heavy and expensive, but not unduly so - Zero could make a profit at $25k. Lower the seat, give it cruiser styling, and it'd be priced pretty close to Harley & Victory cruisers and perhaps a little lighter at ~600 pounds.

Performance, even with a Size 6 controller, would be a little weak due to the extra weight, and the additional weight would make the bike more susceptible to overheating. Zero could build a larger 75-9 oil-cooled motor and use two Gen4 controllers to make it one of the fastest cruisers on the market.

3. Battery cooling would be tough at high charge rates. This would be helped by increasing the battery size; a 220 Ah battery would only see a 1.5C maximum charge rate, which might be acceptable for short periods. This would give a 20-80% charge in approximately 25 minutes for 120 miles of highway range, very similar to Tesla Model S vehicles. Even a 1C charge rate would still complete within 40 minutes, which I think would be acceptable to many people.

[Ranga]

Fast charging, range, performance and quality are all things that customers already demand, so you know Zero is already working on them.  They could all be addressed by offering further revisions of the current chassis. But eventually Zero will have to design a next generation of their bikes, and when they do, I hope they consider...

1. Adjustable foot peg height.

Zero wants to keep the number of parts to a minimum to reduce cost and complexity.  That's why the SR, S and DS have so many parts in common, even though they're trying to be 3 very different things. As a result, a sport bike has the same low foot peg position as a commuter and adventure bike. My solution: In the next chassis redesign, have the foot pegs, brake lever and rear brake master cylinder located on a mount that can be adjusted vertically on the frame. This would allow the SR to have a more aggressive lean angle and seat position while DS riders would have a vertical position for going over rocks... all on one frame! I don't think this has been tried before, largely because you couldn't do this with the shifter.

2. A new headlight.

I completely understand that Zero has to use off the shelf parts wherever possible to offset cost.  That said, the headlight is a visual center point of the bike, and crucial to its personality.  Zero is almost 10 years old, and designing its own headlight and facade would help cement the company as a mature brand.  But a headlight wouldn't be complete without...

3. Fairings.

I propose a full fairing for the SR and a quarter fairing for the S and DS.  There should be 2 interchangeable windscreens: one standard sized for the S and SR and the other much taller (reminiscent of the KTM 990/1190) for the DS. I assume taller guys gravitate towards the DS anyways.

4. A better, more consistent seat.

Zero's motto for demo rides is "putting butts in seats". But there are a surprisingly large number of complaints here. Even my FX seat gets a little stiff after a (comparatively) long ride.  This is something Zero should take seriously, as one ill formed seat can ruin a demo ride.  Seats are like shaving: when its done well, no one notices. It's only when something goes wrong that the topic comes up.

5. Painted body panels.

With options... Please!!!!

[CrashCash]

Actually, I like my SR mostly as-is. Most of my needs would be kits that Zero could provide:

1. A real rear fender for those of us not located in California. Now I read the "Design" column in Motorcycle Consumer News, and I know "fendas ain't kewl" but I actually use my bike for more than posing, and that sometimes involves coming back from lunch or the mall in the rain.

I was so desperate, I made one myself.

2. A Craig Vetter style fairing. I hate watching my battery drain on the expressway like oil from the Exxon Valdez. And I love the '50s style dustbin fairinged racers. An awesome extra would be protomech's idea of extra batteries, or at least brackets for them.

Heck, I'd just take a brackets kit and a precut fairing, and I could put it on myself.

About chargers:
With the power tank, my range is pretty spot on. Honestly, I don't need better charging. The quick-charger Zero gave me as a gift is fine. I bought a couple Elcons and they were a waste, as I did a trip with them and it was rather a rough time, so I won't be doing that again any time soon.

[hippiesparx]

In order of preference:
1. 6kW of onboard charger, dialable to suit available supply
2. Cruiser/tourer body  - naked street is good around town but it seems most of us are going for jaunts in the country.
3. 4kW of onboard charger, switchable to suit available supply
4. More battery - see 2
5. More charger - see1, 2, 3 and 4

[Francois]

better break 4 piston radial for exemple

[NoiseBoy]

A lot of the suggestions are very niche which I think is expected given this forum is mostly frequented by enthusiasts. Can you really see a dustbin fairing being commercially successful with the Instagram generation? Craig Vetter can already sort you out if that's what you want.

My 5:

1. Built in charger a la Renault Zoe that uses the inverter in the controller to charge. I don't actually need fast charging but it would save weight and be a big selling point for those that do need it.

2. Standard tyre sizes. All a larger rear tyre will do is slow the handling but a more common size for wider choice would be worth the trade off. You don't get more corner grip  from a wide tyre and the SR isn't particular powerful compared to any modern superbike.

3. LED lighting because it fits the image and makes sense.

4. Data logging through the Zero app. This would only require a good programmer for a few days to implement but it would be cool to capture data on energy use etc. That you could download through the app and maybe share online to compare performance. It would also provide 'big data' for Zero to optimise their products.

5. Cost. I know this is limited by battery tech and economies of scale and I think the 2015 bikes hold a good middle ground in quality of components so any price reductions can only be a good thing. Zeros are arguably the best commuting vehicles on the market right now but financially they don't stack up against a Japanese middleweight for commuting and that is a major barrier to widespread adoption.

[evtricity]

Here's mine from a track day sports bike rider perspective:

1. Dual front disc brakes
2. Liquid cooled motor
3. Sports bike setup inc. fairings, higher pegs and more rearward seat
4. Better rear brake

 ... and from the perspective of a green tech guy who wants to use a Zero to maximise my home solar generation and reduce reliance on the Grid:

5. Support for grid/off-grid inverters to use the bike to power your house when the sun don't shine (in a similar manner as the Tesla PowerWall)

The more I think about #5 the more I think this helps justify the cost of a Zero when it doubles to cut your power bill by using your own solar and avoiding peak tariffs.

Given a 2015 ZF12.5 can do 339,000 miles before capacity drops to 80%, battery degradation from using in the home shouldn't be a concern like it is for Nissan Leafs etc.

[Cortezdtv]

Actually, I like my SR mostly as-is. Most of my needs would be kits that Zero could provide:

1. A real rear fender for those of us not located in California. Now I read the "Design" column in Motorcycle Consumer News, and I know "fendas ain't kewl" but I actually use my bike for more than posing, and that sometimes involves coming back from lunch or the mall in the rain.

I was so desperate, I made one myself.

2. A Craig Vetter style fairing. I hate watching my battery drain on the expressway like oil from the Exxon Valdez. And I love the '50s style dustbin fairinged racers. An awesome extra would be protomech's idea of extra batteries, or at least brackets for them.

Heck, I'd just take a brackets kit and a precut fairing, and I could put it on myself.

About chargers:
With the power tank, my range is pretty spot on. Honestly, I don't need better charging. The quick-charger Zero gave me as a gift is fine. I bought a couple Elcons and they were a waste, as I did a trip with them and it was rather a rough time, so I won't be doing that again any time soon.

Even a fairing option more like

[Cortezdtv]

A lot of the suggestions are very niche which I think is expected given this forum is mostly frequented by enthusiasts. Can you really see a dustbin fairing being commercially successful with the Instagram generation? Craig Vetter can already sort you out if that's what you want.

My 5:

1. Built in charger a la Renault Zoe that uses the inverter in the controller to charge. I don't actually need fast charging but it would save weight and be a big selling point for those that do need it.

2. Standard tyre sizes. All a larger rear tyre will do is slow the handling but a more common size for wider choice would be worth the trade off. You don't get more corner grip  from a wide tyre and the SR isn't particular powerful compared to any modern superbike.

3. LED lighting because it fits the image and makes sense.

4. Data logging through the Zero app. This would only require a good programmer for a few days to implement but it would be cool to capture data on energy use etc. That you could download through the app and maybe share online to compare performance. It would also provide 'big data' for Zero to optimise their products.

5. Cost. I know this is limited by battery tech and economies of scale and I think the 2015 bikes hold a good middle ground in quality of components so any price reductions can only be a good thing. Zeros are arguably the best commuting vehicles on the market right now but financially they don't stack up against a Japanese middleweight for commuting and that is a major barrier to widespread adoption.

I have put a "dustbin" on a friends bike I raced/rode until dismantled pic above and I would be to your "referred" Instagram population not that I use it much but I am of the younger generation; maybe I'm weird but I like the bike with the front fenders pinched I between the triple clamp and the dustbin style fairing. Yes when I ride off-road I sure as shit don't take that bike but for around town riding it seemed to make the bike range encrease noticeably. Only complaint is I wish it was 10% bigger so I could get under the windshield and then the wind noise increase meant would go away...



Your point number 4..... If you plug into a zero it logs all the data from every ride, not sure what more info you would want, you just have to know how to get it off correctly



I'm pretty sure the new bikes come (on the s wheels) with a 150 rear....
That's decently wide




Seems many of the things people want are basically already there, give them time give them time

Yes they have been around almost 10 years now, but they have only had a legitimized bike (MY13 and newer) for street riding for a few years, yes they made a 12s 11s etc but thoes bikes can't compare to the 13 and newer stuff.



I love the size of the old stuff!!! all I wish is they would make an Electricross (small bike) again......  Size 2 or 4 single brick battery and a zf motor, would get stunning range, insane power, and have the small bike market sealed up in 2 weeks for them, all the componentry fits inside the Electricross frame......

Hell in really tight trails it's hard for me to keep up with the Electricross even on a dirt fx that's a little hopped up, chain, knobbys, s motor that little bike is quick..... Really quick! Shit even on bike tires,



One thing that they should allow users to do after 6 months or a year of electric ownership they should allow you take bike into dealer and reflash low and high modes to more "snappy"
A bike with 44hp and 70ftlbs should be able to easily lift the front tire from a dead stop, the fx cannot! It rolls up to 30 then it yanks the wheel like you would expect it to at 0......   I want that romp from 0 not from 30!    You cant jump over logs if you cant get your wheel up!
Talking about the fx obviously 

[protomech]

5. Support for grid/off-grid inverters to use the bike to power your house when the sun don't shine (in a similar manner as the Tesla PowerWall)

Agree. This should be a factory-supported option; it'd be expensive but it's a great use of the vehicle at-rest.

Of course, it really needs...

1. A more powerful onboard charger. Inverter-based charging would be fantastic for packaging; gallium and silicon carbide look promising for a dedicated onboard charger (which may be more efficient than inverter-based charging). Bring it to production, make the option $2500 if you need to - people are already paying that for heavy/bulky Elcons from Hollywood Electrics.

2. Larger battery faired cruiser using the Tesla SC network, as mentioned previously. Victory is starting to play in the electric space, but Zero can do it better and do it first. Make Harley blush about shrugging their shoulders over 50 miles of city range. RS (range size 4) and RSR (range size 6) options.

• 150 mile 6 brick ZF19 RS $22k, 520 pounds, 7.1s 0-60 w/ 180 lb rider
• 200 mile 8 brick ZF25 RS $27k, 590 pounds, 7.8s 0-60 w/ 180 lb rider
• 150 mile 6 brick ZF19 RSR $24k, 526 pounds, 5.0s 0-60 w/ 180 lb rider
• 200 mile 8 brick ZF25 RSR $29k, 596 pounds, 5.4s 0-60 w/ 180 lb rider

Add $2k to these prices to access the SuperCharger network. Or maybe even less - Zero could probably negotiate prices down to $1k. And at that point, maybe make it standard.

For reference, Zero S ZF12.5 is approximately 5.9s 0-60 and Zero SR ZF12.5 is approximately 4.5s 0-60 with a 180 pound rider. IMO Zero should instead make the size 6 powertrain standard for the RS - making it a bit faster than the standard S - and add a larger controller or dual controllers for the RSR. Adding the fairing, charger and large battery will require a premium price; increasing the power for the powertrain is almost free for the size 6, and easily justified for a dual controller bike for those that want more speed.

None of this is impossible, and it's not something that requires crazy futuretech. Zero has the battery and powertrain technology today. Tesla has a functioning Supercharger network w/ 100 mile gaps and it's only getting better and more densely populated. Craig Vetter has fairings, and my secret wish is that the recent lack of blog updates are because he's prepping a factory faired bike with Zero.

CHAdeMO and CCS both theoretically can support up to 200A and the ~100V ranges that could charge a Zero bike quickly. In practice both of these standards are poorly supported today on the ground, have questionable low voltage support, and even at 200A (essentially no QC stations of either standard support this today) are slower than the thousands of Tesla SC QC in existence now.

Tesla also has a simple, small inlet that easily adapts to J1772 using a locking adapter, CHAdeMO, or any variety of 120V/240V standard plugs.

3. Add OTA updates and diagnostics, similar to Tesla. This is a non-insignificant support burden - I know! - but this is really a piece that Zero should own, and feed back to dealers for support. Also could add a small display and Android Auto or something similar, but I think personally this is likely to be a distraction. Keep it simple.

4. Make the size 6 standard across the line - yes, FX too. It's a minimal cost and weight gain, and significantly improves low end acceleration even on the bikes that will be more quickly limited by battery power (Zero FX, 3 brick S/DS). The bulk cost of the controllers is basically the same for Size 4 and Size 6, and it'll fix the complaints that the bikes are "soft" off the line. Bring the dual-controller powertrain to the SR, and gear it up (25/98) so that there's still a 3s 0-60 and 115+ mph top speed.

5. Improve the bike cooling. Fill the motor with oil and add additional ram air ducts if needed. Calibrate the thermal sensors so that they're not artificially limiting performance. Zero consistently gets dinged for overheating even on the SR, there should be no excuses for bikes in this price class.

Bump the prices if they need to, to make these things happen. Victory is setting a precedent, Zero can easily undercut them and still deliver a vastly superior bike.

[Doug S]

Can you really see a dustbin fairing being commercially successful with the Instagram generation?

I wouldn't lump all of the current generation into one piece like that. I personally know of some youngsters that relate to EVs and their needs (including range maximization), who would certainly understand and agree with a high-efficiency option like a full fairing. Just like those of us who are older, some are more concerned with aesthetics and style, and some are more concerned with function. That's why there are so many motorcycles manufactured, and why there should be options for people, including a high-efficiency, range-extending fairing option for our electric bikes.

[Worksoptony]

Definitely better spray protection from the back wheel.

A big indicator warning  light on the console, i want it  in my face so I know  I've not accidentally left it on. Or even a sound when the indicator is on.

A more effective full beam on the headlight. I want to light the road further ahead, it needs to be more focused.

Integrated  heated handlebar  grips.

Faster charging opens up a lot more opportunities for travelling greater distances.

[NoiseBoy]

Can you really see a dustbin fairing being commercially successful with the Instagram generation?

I wouldn't lump all of the current generation into one piece like that. I personally know of some youngsters that relate to EVs and their needs (including range maximization), who would certainly understand and agree with a high-efficiency option like a full fairing. Just like those of us who are older, some are more concerned with aesthetics and style, and some are more concerned with function. That's why there are so many motorcycles manufactured, and why there should be options for people, including a high-efficiency, range-extending fairing option for our electric bikes.

I wouldn't argue that there are some younger people that wouldn't mind a dustbin fairing, I like the retro look and I'm 27.  But I can only think of one friend who would share the same thoughts and I can't see it being commercially viable, that is my main point.  A modern sportbike style fairing but made a bit wider and taller would still be a huge aerodynamic improvement and much more practical for the majority. I bet some time in a wind tunnel with computer analysis could design some small fixes and improvements like winglets and blocking off unnecessary gaps in the current design which would be worth a couple of percentage points on range with virtually no aesthetic or practical penalty.

[Cortezdtv]

5. Support for grid/off-grid inverters to use the bike to power your house when the sun don't shine (in a similar manner as the Tesla PowerWall)

4. Make the size 6 standard across the line - yes, FX too. It's a minimal cost and weight gain, and significantly improves low end acceleration even on the bikes that will be more quickly limited by battery power (Zero FX, 3 brick S/DS). The bulk cost of the controllers is basically the same for Size 4 and Size 6, and it'll fix the complaints that the bikes are "soft" off the line. Bring the dual-controller powertrain to the SR, and gear it up (25/98) so that there's still a 3s 0-60 and 115+ mph top speed..

2 controllers won't help top speed, the limiter on top speed is the motor by the controller, the motor really needs to spin to 10000 Rpms and be limited to 9000 this would give everyone the speed and cooling they want without using the motor maxed out at full throttle....


Size six on a fx doesn't exist.... And it won't.... It draws to much power for thoes two small batteries, the batteries need to be much stronger maybe by 2017 it will be there maybe with a better smaller controller too