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[travbee]

Just a heads up, I spoke with Sayyed - he does not have many of these units available.

StableOfZeros is planning to do a local pickup of the units, to avoid shipping them to me, and then shipping them to users.

One of them is spoken for by Joe Johnson from the FB Zero group.

StableOfZeros has claimed 2 I believe, which unfortunately only leaves ONE more at this time.

I'll work with StableOfZeros to PM people in order that they responded to this thread, and we can work on getting more units at a discount from Sayyed. The next batch is a month out.

[flynnstig82r]

I’ll take it

[travbee]

I think the fair way would be to go in order of who originally responded to this thread.

I'll work with Sayyed and StableOfZeros to aquire more in June.

[flynnstig82r]

Haha sorry I misread your previous post. I thought you meant whoever posted next

[NEW2elec]

I'll pass on this round.  Maybe June if he will make some more.  Thanks.

[evdjerome]

So that Elcon page shows 6 models beginning with HK-J-H. Which one is for the Zero?

Hope this is acceptable for me to post this.

I know I'm new to the forums - but would like to see if there is any interest in a group buy in some of the Elcon 3.3kw external chargers.

https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm

I have spoken with Sayyed @ Elcon quite a bit.

This charger fully programmed for our Zero is $750 + $45 shipping, when purchased alone.

If we can get commitment to 5 or more, the price drops substantially to $638 per charger (plus shipping.)

I plan to purchase 2, and I'm fairly confident from speaking with other members that there is plenty of interest for us to hit the 5 mark and save some money.

Post up if you're interested!

Also if this breaking forum rules in some way, I apologize. Please let me know how I can set this up with our members.

[DonTom]

So that Elcon page shows 6 models beginning with HK-J-H. Which one is for the Zero?

. I think the programming is the only difference, so it won't be any of those shown by specs,  but will be the same hardware. Yours will be specially programmed for a Zero.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[StableofZeros]

So that Elcon page shows 6 models beginning with HK-J-H. Which one is for the Zero?

Just has to be programmed to work with a zero. These work by keying on the bike, engaging the onboard charger, then plugging in the elcon, then keying off the bike.

[DonTom]

These work by keying on the bike, engaging the onboard charger, then plugging in the elcon, then keying off the bike.

If you're also using the OBC, you can keep the key out. No need for the key at all.


If that info came from Sayyed, it's because he doesn't own a Zero and doesn't understand that the OBC will automatically close the contactor without a key.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[StableofZeros]

All I’m saying is I’ve had some issues with my OBC and it doesn’t wake the bike up sometimes. To eliminate any chance of not working right, I can only recommend key on first. But to be clear these will not wake the bike up.

[mryan]

So that Elcon page shows 6 models beginning with HK-J-H. Which one is for the Zero?

. I think the programming is the only difference, so it won't be any of those shown by specs,  but will be the same hardware. Yours will be specially programmed for a Zero.


-Don-  Reno, NV

Well some of them are different voltages, I think I remember reading that the hardware could be different with different voltages. For our zeros we need H132-32 - or 96v nominal.

[talon]

Related to evdjerome’s question, if you exceed 1C and the external chargers are plugged into the accessory port will the bike just throttle back its charge tank speed to stay under 1C or will it cut out completely?

IIRC, the battery fuse is 100 amps. 100 amps is 24KW at 240 VAC  so you're unlikely to blow it. But the fuse for  the DeltaQ charger is less, perhaps 50 amps?  Sorry, I am not 100% sure but I think that is correct. Perhaps somebody here can verify.
If you're just a little over 1C, it just means the battery cells will get warmer than they should. Too much of it will be bad for the battery, but I doubt if a little over 1C for a few times will make that big of a difference compared to being just under 1C.
I don't think our Zero BMS will reduce the current for you. But some BMSes in other batteries will.

DonTom, not to flame you, but you have mixed AC and DC amps in the same equation, and calculated 1C incorrectly. Current Zero batteries will not handle 24kW for very long. Also, using *NOMINAL* POWER to calculate what 1C is for a battery is backwards and can convey the wrong information.

Example:  A given battery is 28Series4Parallel with cells that are 29Ah each. The nominal cell voltage from manufacturer is 3.65Vpc_nom (not 3.7Vpc_nom) and the maximum specified cell voltage is 4.15Vpc_max (not 4.2Vpc_max).

This means the battery is 29Ah*4P=116Ah. 1C should be accomplished by charging the battery at 116Amps for 1 hour. 116Amps should be the stated charging limit of this battery pack.
Engineer A calculates the battery is 3.65Vpc_nom*28S=102.2V_nom (average throughout SoC calculated in cell laboratory)
and further 102.2V_nom*116Ah = 11855.2Wh_nom = ~11.8kWh_nom (useful energy)
Marketer B likes bigger numbers and calculates (4.15Vpc_max*28S)*116Ah = ~13.4max_kWh (which means nothing to anyone but tax officials)
Consumer C often takes 11800Wh_nom or even worse 13400Wh_max and assumes that this power amount constantly would be equivalent to 1C constant throughout the charge.

The battery near 0% (near low voltage cut-off 0% not true zero) is around 3.0Vpc*28S=84V_empty.
The battery near 100% is around 4.15Vpc_max*28S=116.2V_max.
11.8kWh_nom/84V_empty= ~140.48Amps voiding the battery warranty by going above the real 1C of 116Amps!
11.8kWh_nom/116.2V_max=101.55A which is under 1C constant rate.
So in this case Consumer C would have temporarily went over the specified battery charging limit at any low State-of-Charge (SoC) and then charged at under what the battery is technically capable of at high SoC, just to stay at their nominal (or average) charge power rating. Consumer C made charging power constant but not the amps which is the standard charging profile for lithium batteries (CC/CV).

I used numbers from memory for the 2016 model year and they may be wrong, but the example should still be good to illustrate the dangers associated with assumptions/calculations based on nominal power. I believe the 2016 is actually 28Ah but IIRC some are stamped 29Ah or something. The engineers seem to use the 28 figure in their calculations because my numbers match the Zero datasheet when I use it. I used 29Ah in the example for clarity sake to not mix up with the 28S even though it is likely incorrect for any specific zero battery. People have charged Zero's well over 1C before. It should void the warranty. I'm not a battery expert and these amounts (Ah) may technically need to change as the battery ages and recalculates its own capacity (even new from the factory Zero may not use the Farasis laboratory cell data/spec for Zero's pack encapsulated in resin meaning we are all at too high of a rate). Also sorry I've forgotten all my significant figures rules with calculations.

Oh yeah, my bike reports itself as 104Ah since new, despite me calculating 112Ah for the 16SR:
See https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8940.0

[talon]

Also, the Zero BMS might open the contactor while charging if you exceed 1C similar to how it opens the contactor if the battery temperature or voltage gets too high while charging. If this is the case, doing this with many amps flowing too many times can prematurely wear out even the best contactors due to DC arcing which of course would be worse at these higher currents.

For this reason they may elect not to open the contactor at high rates of charge and just log that it occurred; I've seen a max charging amperage variable stored somewhere in a Zero before.

I'm not too familiar with Zero's wiring. I've taken a couple apart quickly but completely forgotten now. I don't even remember if the controller connection goes through that contactor or not, or if it is just for charging/dc-dc power. I have many pictures somewhere but I am too disorganized and busy. Anyway trying to keep this relevant to this discussion, I personally connect directly to the motor controller's beefy terminals like many others to avoid that darn shrink-wrapped auxiliary charging fuse. There are reports that they blow easier than their spec due to added thermal insulation. I recommend getting only enough chargers capable of UNDER your 1C rate so you know you never exceed it.

I am trying to find that Sumitomo AC inlet in my Japanese Supply Bookmarks in my browser. I found it once a long time ago and I need another as well. BNM/Electric Cowboy should have it recorded somewhere if he feels like sharing. Beware, they have a very low mating-cycle life before they are too worn and heat up excessively. Use dielectric grease where applicable.

[DonTom]

Current Zero batteries will not handle 24kW for very long.

Where did I say it would? The fuse will be well above the expected normal max current rating.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[talon]

"100 amps is 24KW at 240 VAC so you're unlikely to blow it". The main battery fuse in some of the bikes are 300+ DCAmps. The auxiliary/accessory charging fuses are ~100 Amps and thermally insulated so much that they will likely blow well under their rating (<85A) depending on model year.. you specifically suggested that a little over 1C should be fine... with the context being the auxiliary/accessory charging port. That is not a good idea as you are at, and even slightly above the limit at exactly 1C. Some bikes the OBC goes through the aux/acc as well. The only way I foresee to be 100% safe and within warranty would be to not surpass your bike's OBC+4kW deltaQ on that port. By the way, the Auxiliary charging port may be different from the Accessory charging port. One may be for the chargetank/powertank and be wired differently.