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Author Topic: Charging stations  (Read 6538 times)

protomech

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2015, 06:45:10 PM »

+1 Chocula. A weatherproof NEMA 14-50 now and a 40A EVSE later might be the way to go for best compatibility. The vast majority of EVs would only be able to use the EVSE; Teslas are pretty much the only ones that carry their own high-amp EVSE with them.
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bikerscooby

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2016, 05:02:06 AM »

I know this is an old post and this question may have been answered before but I couldn't find it.   ???

It seems every time I look for charging stations they seem to be on different networks and I need to sign up for an account to access them.  I'm trying to get signed up for all of them I might come across so I'm prepared, and was wondering if there was a list somewhere?  I'm in Southern California and so far came across these either in person or by looking at the PlugShare map, and was able to create an account for them:

ChargePoint
evGo
evConnect
blink

There are additional ones for Nissan and Tesla owners but we wouldn't be able to use those.

Are there any I'm missing?  Feel free to reply with other networks even if regional, just specify where you are located.
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2016, 06:41:06 AM »

I know this is an old post and this question may have been answered before but I couldn't find it.   ???

It seems every time I look for charging stations they seem to be on different networks and I need to sign up for an account to access them.  I'm trying to get signed up for all of them I might come across so I'm prepared, and was wondering if there was a list somewhere?  I'm in Southern California and so far came across these either in person or by looking at the PlugShare map, and was able to create an account for them:

ChargePoint
evGo
evConnect
blink

There are additional ones for Nissan and Tesla owners but we wouldn't be able to use those.

Are there any I'm missing?  Feel free to reply with other networks even if regional, just specify where you are located.

Those are definitely the top networks. There are also:

Volta
Next Charge
PlugSurfing
SemaConnect

And also for RV 50-amp plugs:
RV Parky
RV Parks

I suppose I can collate this list into the wiki somewhere.
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bikerscooby

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2016, 06:01:22 AM »

Found another charging network today:

Greenlots  (https://charge.greenlots.com/greenlots/)
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Richard230

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2016, 04:57:33 AM »

The San Francisco based electric and gas utility company, P.G.&E. (AKA Pacific, Graft and Extortion), has just won approval from the California PUC to construct a maximum of 7,500 EV charging stations within their utility jurisdiction, which is most of central and northern California. The cost to ratepayers will be $130 million.  The original proposal was to construct 25,000 charging stations at a cost of $654 million, but this was cut back by the PUC.

The original request was for the utility to "wield wide-ranging control over the design of the physical facilities and the network support services", according to an article written by Geroge Avalos of the Bay Area News Group that was published in my newspaper today.  The reduction in charging stations was approved by a PUC Administrative Law Judge to not only reduce the impact on the utility's ratepayers, but also to prevent PG&E from obtaining a lock on the EV charging station design and locations, which would severely hamper competition from private companies.

I see two potential issues with this plan:  One is that making the all of the utility's ratepayers fund the charging infrastructure and operation is not going to endear those ratepayers to electric vehicle owners.  The other more practical issue will be how will the utility find 7,500 parking spaces to locate these stations in congested California where such spaces are at a premium in urban locations?  Apparently, the plan is to locate many of the charging stations on private property, such as in front of businesses and at apartment complexes. That means taking these parking spots away from IC vehicles, which is going to be really tough at urban apartments and condominium facilities.  And if they start using condemnation proceedings to acquire these stations that could get really nasty very quickly.  I hope PG&E can deal with these and other issues so as to not result in public outrage against the EV stations and EV owners, but they have a reputation of being a "bull in a china shop" and they are already on the public's list of companies who they love to hate. 

It is going to be very interesting to see how this plan unfolds in the future.  I suspect that it will be making headlines every now and then as some poor property owner or business gets squashed to construct a charging station and IC parking spaces turn into charging spaces.  And then we have the issue of enforcement.  Right now in my area parking spaces set aside for EVs in shopping areas get ICE's all the time and no one does anything about it.  Cops don't have authority to enforce parking regulations in shopping centers and the businesses don't want to hassle their customers by towing their vehicles. Details, details.   ???
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Richard230

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2016, 08:55:33 PM »

I was inspired by a PM to elaborate a little on the views that I expressed above and why I presented them the way that I did:

One of the reasons that I make many of my posts here is not only to pass along new news but also to promote discussion on the forum. In particular, it is my view that electric charging stations logically should be installed at existing gas service stations - instead at random locations where EV owners are not expecting to find a charging station, are unlikely to find a station unoccupied, or need to be driving on to private property where they may not be welcome if they are not a customer of the local business.  It just makes real sense to install the charging facilities at gas stations as most of the stations that I have seen have plenty of extra paved space to locate a charging station or two where vehicles could stay for a while without impacting the operation of other customers at the station. 

Unfortunately, the limited exposure that I have had at gas stations has been that their employees and managers are scared of the EV trend because they believe that will cut into their gasoline sales and eventually put them out of business.  Apparently, Big Oil is doing nothing to change this view - which I don't think is correct.  A minor change to their business model to accommodate electric vehicles could replace any lost income, and perhaps even increase it.  But right now the various parties have their heels dug-in.  Change will be hard.

My other issue is with our utility company, PG&E, being in charge of this project.  I have dealt with them off and on over the past 40 years.  I used to work at a local city's engineering department and one of the things that I did was to manage the city's end of installing existing overhead utility wires underground. While doing that I discovered that PG&E had no respect for their customers, or even our city, for that matter.  They just did whatever they wanted, were able to spend our money set aside in a dedicated account to perform this work without any oversight or accounting, and were allowed to interpret state law by the state PUC in any matter that they wished, even if their interpretation was exactly contrary to the written law. 

When they blew up an entire neighborhood in the city next to me a few years ago by spending gas pipeline inspection funds on management salaries, bonuses and payoffs to the PUC commissioners, instead of inspecting gas pipelines, their attitude to the public and their ratepayers finally started coming to light. So I don't have a good feeling when this utility is granted a huge sum to install 7,500 electric charging stations with apparently little oversight into how they spend the money, design the chargers, or pick locations for their installation.

Sorry about being kind of negative toward what seems like a good idea to expand the EV technology, but I just have this uneasy feeling about letting a pubic utility company do the work.  They just don't have my confidence.   :(
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ctrlburn

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2016, 09:58:40 PM »

In the spirit of adding to discussion....

I've been floating a "Charging Destination" model. Inspired by Ben Swing's more favorable charging locations (where even a cold beverage, lawn chair and a stack of magazines was palatial) and a recollection of "old timey" gas stations.

To Witt:
  Begin to renovate an old timey gas station.
  Air Conditioned, lounge, snack bar, laundry, lockers and internet.
  Well posted "Plug in then ask" signage.

Short term EV rental (super cheap 1 hour rental- Neighborhood EV, Ecycle, Emoped, Ebike). Fri,Sat,Sun (9am to 6pm)
Long term EV rental ("No Cost*" weeklong rental) Mon-Fri

The model being:
    Arrive, plug in and lounge (snack, nap, read, watch media, surf)
  Or
     Arrive, Plug in and rent an EV (every town has someplace to go... a park, an antique shop, some scenic route, restaurants, historical site, or whatnot)

Return to a recharged vehicle in an hour. (Surcharge if you return LONG AFTER your vehicle is charged)

For us Zero fans... an array of fast chargers on site. and perhaps a swapable battery pool.

And for the longer term rental - arrive in an ICE (*EV rental rate is what it would have cost to drive your ICE vehicle based on manufacturer's fuel mileage) and depart until the weekend in an EV.


Profit?  eh - maybe from sales.
also sell "membership" which provides a passkey to open facility during off hours.
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NEW2elec

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2016, 11:53:38 PM »

Thanks Richard, I agree that private interests will give you competition which will give you a better product at a better cost.  Putting people's lives in danger like you talked about with diverted funds is what can happen when the players and the watchers are in bed together.
The sales pitch has to be your not losing a gas customer your gaining an EV customer.  Think of all the overhead cost savings from the storage tanks and delivery trucks, they will make out better in the end.
Private energy producers will have a tough time competing with the state run companies but they will have to emerge or you will find your energy "allowance" controlled and limited.

But it all falls back on fast charging at least <30 mins and really under 15.
As always opinions welcome.
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Delnari

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2016, 05:33:05 PM »

From my readings of late there seems to be a push for CCS (Quick Charging) stations for the near future.  The technology ranges from 200 Kw to 350 Kw charging rates.  With these higher charger rates most current and planned EVs should be able to fully charge (80%) in 15 minutes or less.  The plug and go charging stations should start forming across the US in 3-4 years to support the new infrastructure.

State governments are looking at the new technology as a new tax source as well.  Just as they charge a state tax on fuels currently, this would be extended to these rapid charge stations.  Given the low cost of electricity, the majority of the cost at these rapid stations will be Infrastructure recovery and state/county taxes.  It would be reasonable for EV owners to use these convenient rapid charge stations when traveling away from home.  Would also promote ownership by those who do not have access to EVSE at their home to further increase the number of EVs on the road thus promoting more CCS Charge stations.

If the EV industry can adopt this we could see current fueling stations (especially those that have 2 or more near each other) switch to electric fueling.  Once the snowball is rolling it should get bigger and bigger and states will still have a revenue source to help in maintaining their road infrastructure.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 05:35:33 PM by Delnari »
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Richard230

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2016, 08:41:09 PM »

It would seem to me that the major issue with charging stations is that they all need to be of the same design and specification so that when you drive or ride up to a charging station you know that it will work on your vehicle.  Can you imagine what traveling around in your IC car would be like if you never knew if the gas filler would fit in your fuel tank inlet when you drive into a service station?  Until the industry gets its act together and adopts a common standard for recharging vehicles, there are going to be problems for EV travelers. We need to resolve this matter before tens of thousands more charging stations are constructed. 
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ctrlburn

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2016, 09:26:38 PM »

It would seem to me that the major issue with charging stations is that they all need to be of the same design and specification so that when you drive or ride up to a charging station you know that it will work on your vehicle.  Can you imagine what traveling around in your IC car would be like if you never knew if the gas filler would fit in your fuel tank inlet when you drive into a service station?

I don't have to imagine.  My older diesel IC car accommodates the larger diesel nozzles so I could fuel anywhere (even the wrong fuel).  Today's diesels have smaller fuel tank inlet as to not accidentally buy gasoline(? (which might not be that bad )) so even after finding a station with diesel... I have pulled up to a pump which does not fit into my fuel tank inlet.

Whats harder for me... is there are a couple major chains I resist patronizing for trade practices, pollution, social irresponsibility and political activities. (Don't worry Tillerson's Exxon was the original "do not trade" company over a decade ago)

So, I won't stop at just any service station, not every service station has diesel... not every diesel nozzle fits in my vehicle.

I've coped pretty well.  Though I can agree standards would be great... but the world will work with non-standards.

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Delnari

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2016, 09:14:52 PM »

Adopting a standard with EVs is not an easy task.  Much like when the Internet was forming it took a consortium to create the standard for everyone to follow.  The electric charging technology comes in various forms currently while the industry figures out what system works best for the current/future battery technology.  The only item that is moving forward is that most EVs will be charged via electricity by way of DC current to eliminate the AC/DC conversion when storing the energy.  Given that, a multitude of connectors designs are being proposed for worldwide adoption.  Europe is moving forward with a standard for the middle of next year that maybe the rest of the world countries can get behind and support as a new standard.  Even if the new infrastructure standard only lives for 7-10 years then gives way to newer technology.  It would have done it's purpose of bringing more fast-charging EVs to market and on the roads.
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Erasmo

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2016, 11:33:56 PM »

Europe has had a standard for AC since 2009, better known as the Mennekes plug, even the Teslas here have them. It accepts 1-3 phases and can support up to 43(!)kW AC charging from either charging stations or a regular outlet.

DC is either CCS or a Chademo plug on the side of the AC port.

In the spirit of adding to discussion....

I've been floating a "Charging Destination" model. Inspired by Ben Swing's more favorable charging locations (where even a cold beverage, lawn chair and a stack of magazines was palatial) and a recollection of "old timey" gas stations.

To Witt:
  Begin to renovate an old timey gas station.
  Air Conditioned, lounge, snack bar, laundry, lockers and internet.
  Well posted "Plug in then ask" signage.

Short term EV rental (super cheap 1 hour rental- Neighborhood EV, Ecycle, Emoped, Ebike). Fri,Sat,Sun (9am to 6pm)
Long term EV rental ("No Cost*" weeklong rental) Mon-Fri

The model being:
    Arrive, plug in and lounge (snack, nap, read, watch media, surf)
  Or
     Arrive, Plug in and rent an EV (every town has someplace to go... a park, an antique shop, some scenic route, restaurants, historical site, or whatnot)
Return to a recharged vehicle in an hour. (Surcharge if you return LONG AFTER your vehicle is charged)
For us Zero fans... an array of fast chargers on site. and perhaps a swapable battery pool.
And for the longer term rental - arrive in an ICE (*EV rental rate is what it would have cost to drive your ICE vehicle based on manufacturer's fuel mileage) and depart until the weekend in an EV.
Profit?  eh - maybe from sales.
also sell "membership" which provides a passkey to open facility during off hours.
Why not also accept the charge fobs that every EV rider carries? That way you can charge 24/7.
You might even contact your local fast food franchise to see if you can install a small charging station with multiple outlets on their parking lot, that way you can plug in, enjoy your coffee and snack, do some work while charging and get on with your trip.
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benswing

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2016, 01:34:24 AM »

Hey guys, I haven't checked in for a while and just read a ton of misinformation about charging stations.

1)  The US has standardization for level 2 charging stations.  The plug is "eloquently" called a J1772 plug and that is what you find on all networks (Chargepoint, EVGo, Nissan, etc).  This is what Zero uses with their Charge Tank and it is found in every mass produced electric car. 

2)  Direct Current Fast Charging (DCFC), which is called level 3 charging, is currently split between CHAdeMO and CCS.  CHAdeMO had a huge head start because it is a Japanese standard and Nissan installed lots of them at dealerships.  However, CCS (the US & European standard) will soon match, and then surpass CHAdeMO standards.

3)  CCS fast charging is not yet 150-300kW.  They expect to hit those numbers in the future, but they aren't coming for a few years.  Tesla superchargers are still the big dog at 145kW right now. 

4)  Personally, I don't want to see charging stations at gas stations.  While charging you want to be either (1) at your destination (having fun, working, hiking, etc) as your vehicle charges, or (2) at a rest stop on the highway fast charging.  I would be perfectly happy never stopping at a gas station again.  On my trips I seek restaurants where I can eat/drink/access wifi while charging. 

Hope this clears up some of the information.  I drive an electric car, so my experiences are not only limited to my cross country road trips.
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Erasmo

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Re: Charging stations
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2016, 04:07:30 AM »

There are already 150kW CCS stations in the wild.
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