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[Lipo423]

Mine actually didn't hit till almost 3500 miles.  Which reminds me, I wanted to ask, is there anyone on the forum here with over 2-3000 miles on a 2012 that doesn't have the "glitch"?  I know some of the prototypes from last year that zero has with almost 25k miles don't have it, im just curious if any since the spring 2012 production run are glitch free.

Offthegrid,

I have got 1.700 miles on my ZF9 and there are no symptoms of the glitch so far -I'm getting VERY nervous after reading everybody's comments though 

After reading your "experiences" I also suggest you to be very careful and eventually stop riding your bike.

[BSDThw]

Somebody wrote about the "main bike board" MBB I am not sure, if the BMS and the MBB the same.

beneath  the "Tank" there is a box with two sockets, where most cables go in and out. It could possible be a controller housing (MBB), but maybe someone here can give more information.

The only thing I am a bit deeper in is the SevCon Controller.

[Keith_Greensboro_NC]

Looking at my 2012 S Owners Manual, the BMS is inside the power pack which makes sense because the BMS 4 status LEDs are on the front of the box. The 420 Amp motor controller has an aluminum heat sink attached and it is below the seat facing the rear wheel. The MBB is mentioned in the fuse description and it says Main Bike Board/Controller. So, I don't know if there are 2 items supplied by that fuse or 2 names for the 1 item.

I would like to talk with you more regarding your knowledge of the controller!

Keith

[Electric Terry]

After reading your "experiences" I also suggest you to be very careful and eventually stop riding your bike.

Im waiting till they figure out what it is before I get it fixed.  I haven't heard anything definite yet from zero.  Despite it cutting out sometimes 10 times in a 5 mile freeway ride, i still enjoy riding it.  Some days it only happens 10 times the whole day. 

Getting ready to cross 8000 miles soon.  Front tire still looks brand new.  Amazing!

ColoPaul how many miles since the recalibration now?  Do you remember if they got the motor very hot before doing the "calsincos" command while spinning the back tire?  Mine wasn't and I went about 100 miles before the glitch returned, but I was too far to ride back to the dealer.

Protomech, Jpaulus? does Zero have your bikes yet?  Any updates? 

Till then, ride safe everyone!  ---> really fast with plenty of room to coast to reboot!  Speaking of this does anyone notice how effortly the bike coasts when it cuts out?  I think we're so used to the brake regeneration when we let go of the throttle, that when we let go at 75 mph to reset the key, the bike doesn't slow down so fast because the controller isn't working.  Although I don't think brake regen works over 75 mph from something in the program.  Coasted down from 92 mph a few times and at 75 I really felt the bike slow down.

[trikester]

On that regen note; Harlan reprogrammed my controller a couple of weeks ago to completely eliminate all regen from SPORT mode (I now have the handlebar mounted momentary switch to go into ECO mode when slowing or approaching a stop). So after a couple of weeks of riding with free coasting - I like it very much. However, it's not like having a freewheel on a bicycle, there is still a lot of drag from spinning the motor since when coasting it is a high gear to the motor when driven from the wheel. But as you say, there is a noticeable difference when there is no SPORT mode regen. I think that ZERO was afraid of having too little slowing when riders would roll off the throttle.

My frustration was having to keep some throttle open just to go downhill on shallower slopes. I can now coast slopes I used to have to keep some throttle on.

Trikester

[ZeroSinMA]

Maybe I'm a wuss. Am I the only one on these forums who gets nervous when riding a 300 lb bike on the highway? When I'm riding my zero on the highway it feels like I'm going to blow away every time a truck passes. The 2012 Zero S SF9 is a heck of a lot less scary than the 2011, heavier with a lower center of gravity. But still.

[jpaulus]

A lot has happened in the two weeks since I first got the Glitch so I've summarized it here.  (The short story is that Zero took my bike back to the factory, fixed it and it is to be delivered tomorrow.)


8/6/12 (week of): experienced cutouts for the first time (1400+ miles on odo), quickly became very frequent

8/9/12: coincidentally had conversation with Zero CEO and discussed this issue

8/10/12: bike serviced at local shop where it received a controller software update and encoder sync; no problems riding that day

8/11/12: test ride day; cutout multiple times near end of ride

8/15/12: Zero picked up bike and took it back to the factory

8/16/12 - 8/20/12: bike was re-tuned for timing issues using their Dyno (rolling road) and tested on a 26 mile ride with no issues; tech rode it home and it cutout on him; further testing revealed a weak signal from encoder to motor; motor swapped with fully tested new one; my bike (S-ZF9) was manufactured (VIN ending 0239) before a more detailed motor analysis test was instituted at "end of line" and they believe that my motor would have been flagged as below acceptable tolerances at that time; explanation: the encoder signal changes slightly on brushless motors with repeated heating and cooling and general break-in; the tolerances on my bike were not sufficient for this change; they are learning more from my original motor

8/21/12 (tomorrow): bike to be delivered and the testing will begin!


Since it has only been two weeks since I've even known of this problem, from my perspective Zero has been exceptionally responsive.  I kind of wish that they would be more communicative with us here because no one likes to be in the dark but on the other hand I imagine that we would pepper them with so many questions that it would take them away from doing actual work in solving the issue; the people who can best answer our questions have better ways to spend their time even from our perspective.  They didn't mention it but I'm sure they're following the thread closely in order to gather data so I'll bet our chatter has been helpful.  Hopefully my original motor will help them even more in addressing this.

[Richard230]

Today I didn't get far in the morning. I started up my bike, after having it on the charger for the past 5 days while I was on a camping trip, and it only went about 12 inches before shutting down. I rebooted the ignition and then rode off with no further problems until I returned home after 7 miles of local riding.  So the problem definitely isn't related to heat - at least not in my case.  My bike is number 51.

One observation I will make is that I never had a "glitch" occur until right after I had the BMS waterproofing recall work performed.   

[ColoPaul]

Maybe I'm a wuss. Am I the only one on these forums who gets nervous when riding a 300 lb bike on the highway?

I wouldn't call you a wuss.  I feel more comfortable on the highway with my 630 pound bike.  But it's not so bad I avoid the highways.

ColoPaul how many miles since the recalibration now?  Do you remember if they got the motor very hot before doing the "calsincos" command while spinning the back tire?  Mine wasn't and I went about 100 miles before the glitch returned, but I was too far to ride back to the dealer.

I'm up to about 250.  About the motor temp; I don't know but I'd guess it was cold.

further testing revealed a weak signal from encoder to motor; motor swapped with fully tested new one; my bike (S-ZF9) was manufactured (VIN ending 0239) before a more detailed motor analysis test was instituted at "end of line" and they believe that my motor would have been flagged as below acceptable tolerances at that time; explanation: the encoder signal changes slightly on brushless motors with repeated heating and cooling and general break-in; the tolerances on my bike were not sufficient for this change; they are learning more from my original motorctual work in solving the issue;

Aha!  Thanks for posting.  This is why the sincos re-cal can help/change the nature of the glitch.  And if the motor encoder is continuously changing, it explains why the glitch can come and go.
This also explains something I observed awhile ago:  At ~500 miles, the sounds my motor made changed dramatically, especially at low speeds, enough that I was worried.  I decided to wait to see if it got worse.  Around ~700 miles, the noises went away.  I wonder if the encoder drifted, but not enough to glitch; and then drifted back.

[rotoiti]

ColoPaul, expevride, monarchhonda, mehve, protomech, rotoiti, trikester, RickSteeb - just to verify, all of you have had a cut out that only a key off/on would fix, correct?

Yes.

1) was it raining, or had the bike recently gotten wet?

No. My bike was never in the true rain. Some drizzle, yes, but not rain.

2) how many miles were on the bike when it first occurred?

About 2,000.

3) how many total times has it happened?

Just once. Took it to my dealer, they had a Zero tech onsite, they reprogrammed the controller. Never happened again.

4) have you only gone to twist the throttle and no power, or have you been riding, heard a "clunk" and have it cut off?

No clunks. About 70 mph on a highway, coasted for 30 seconds or so, twisted the throttle and nothing.

5) has anyone had the bike try to go backwards when twisting the throttle?

Not me.

6) have you ever had to unplug and replug for any reason the wiring harness going to the motor or move it's routing for any reason?

No.

7) Do any of you frequently switch between sport and Eco mode?

I do. I know the instructions say I have to turn off the "ignition" before switching but the switch seems to work regardless.

[Electric Terry]

Very interesting.

So a motor/controller recalibration has fixed it for rotoiti and Colopaul so far

Jpaulus they tried that first on yours, but still with the issue the next step is motor replacement due to low motor positioning signal strength?  I wonder if a all new motor is required or whether just the sensor in the back of the motor can be replaced?

So for all of us that have had a proper BMS replacement AND controller recalibration it looks like we are in for an actual major component replacement.

Richard, how far are you from Zero HQ? 60 miles or so? Could you arrange with them to take a early morning trip to be there right when open, have them quick charge you back to 100% battery while checking your bike's motor postioning signal strength, and recalibrating your controller again, do a quick dyno run, quick charge you again and then send you on the way home in time for a late lunch?  I would think seeing the bike in person instead of talking through the dealer would be the preferred method for now, until they are sure what they are dealing with by seeing enough bikes themselves firsthand.

Protomech...all eyes on you now.

[protomech]

I'll contact Zero tomorrow and see where they are.

[Richard230]

Very interesting.

So a motor/controller recalibration has fixed it for rotoiti and Colopaul so far

Jpaulus they tried that first on yours, but still with the issue the next step is motor replacement due to low motor positioning signal strength?  I wonder if a all new motor is required or whether just the sensor in the back of the motor can be replaced?

So for all of us that have had a proper BMS replacement AND controller recalibration it looks like we are in for an actual major component replacement.

Richard, how far are you from Zero HQ? 60 miles or so? Could you arrange with them to take a early morning trip to be there right when open, have them quick charge you back to 100% battery while checking your bike's motor postioning signal strength, and recalibrating your controller again, do a quick dyno run, quick charge you again and then send you on the way home in time for a late lunch?  I would think seeing the bike in person instead of talking through the dealer would be the preferred method for now, until they are sure what they are dealing with by seeing enough bikes themselves firsthand.

Protomech...all eyes on you now.

I might be able to make it to Scotts Valley with the wind at my back, but I would never be able to make it home, even with a fully charged battery pack.  The route home would be via Highway 1 and that is an honest 60 mph run against the 25-mph afternoon wind.  In any case, my bike is not glitching often enough for it to be a good candidate for testing.  If it was, Zero could just drive up to my home and pick my bike up like they did the last time, run it around until they got it fixed and then bring it back.  I think they have a different plan for addressing the glitch this time, compared to my previous stoplight stalling issue.

[dkw12002]

Back when the Audi 5000 was suffering from sudden acceleration, Audi sold their cars at deep discounts. I bought one myself and it turned out to only accelerate when I pushed the gas pedal. Amazing. Anyway, I know this glitch is the real thing, but I would be willing to take a chance. If Zero were to offer me a new 2012 bike with a 30% discount, I would take one off their hands today and take my chances that a fix is in the works. Call me a risk taker.

[ZeroSinMA]

Back when the Audi 5000 was suffering from sudden acceleration, Audi sold their cars at deep discounts. I bought one myself and it turned out to only accelerate when I pushed the gas pedal. Amazing. Anyway, I know this glitch is the real thing, but I would be willing to take a chance. If Zero were to offer me a new 2012 bike with a 30% discount, I would take one off their hands today and take my chances that a fix is in the works. Call me a risk taker.

If Audi sold each 5000 at a 30% discount it lost approx. 10% on every unit. Audi was a large company with a broad product line at the time of the 5000 PR crisis. They could afford to take a per-unit loss on one model.

I bet Zero's gross margin across its narrow product line is less than 20%. Including cost of sales, marketing, and so on I'm sure the entire business is operating at a loss. They'd not only lose $10% on every unit at a 30% discount, they'd burn cash even faster than they are today. They have to work the problem until it's fixed.

They must be frustrated as hell because the 2011 S was bulletproof. Then they changed the battery, motor, and added regen. That's a huge set of changes that has to get through god knows how many hours of unit and system testing. Better than the old Macs, though. New models hardly worked at all. One glitch ain't so bad, if there aren't more.