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Author Topic: Motobob on the WN7  (Read 111841 times)

DonTom

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2025, 01:53:33 PM »

Any betting types in here? I know where I'd put my money between Don's Internet Speculations and the engineers at Team Honda. I've got cash
I would put my money on the math, not on people.


However, they need to give us accurate numbers to work with.


I cannot think of anything more useless than a mention of "range" on an electric motorcycle. Especially when no speed or anything else is mentioned.
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2016 Kawasaki Versys 650 LT
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2017 Org Zero DS ZF 6.5/(now is 7.2)
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Richard230

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2025, 07:40:20 PM »

Any betting types in here? I know where I'd put my money between Don's Internet Speculations and the engineers at Team Honda. I've got cash
I would put my money on the math, not on people.


However, they need to give us accurate numbers to work with.


I cannot think of anything more useless than a mention of "range" on an electric motorcycle. Especially when no speed or anything else is mentioned.

I get the impression that some electric motorcycle range claims might include traveling at 25 mph with a tail wind.  ::)

And if you really want to see crazy claims, just check out the Chinese electric bicycle market where very long distance claims are the norm. I have two ebikes. One claimed a range of 80 miles, but I typically get 25 miles on my rides. My other ebike claims a range of 100 miles on throttle-only and 200 miles if you pedal (well, duh).  ::) I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the marketing information there is a statement that your range may vary.  ;)

My favorite electric motorcycle claim is Zero's claim of a battery life for my 2018 Zero S with PT of 455,000 miles that was listed in their 2017 model brochure.  :o
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Stonewolf

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2025, 05:19:44 AM »

It's worth remembering that a lot of quoted range estimates follow standardised systems designed for cars and ex-urban IS NOT motorway, it's more like 80kmh/50mph backroads. This is where aero rears its ugly head again because the difference in power consumption for bikes at 80 vs 130 is way way higher than for cars due to cars being in a totally different league for coefficient of drag. ICE bikes obfuscate it because their engines are more efficient under higher loads whereas with EVs the difference is starker due to efficiency being basicly static.
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Specter

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2025, 06:40:16 AM »

once you get much over 30 to 35 mph on a bike, the wind drag becomes THE major thing.  Swept area, wind coefficient, etc, energy goes up by a factor of 4, so at high speeds, just an extra 5 mph might take 50 hp.

if you can, get on a highway early / late when there is not a lot of traffic, set your speed to 70 mph / 100 ish kmh  sit straight up and watch your power consumption for a mile or so, now do a good race tuck and watch how much that can go down.  yes, even just your body sticking up causes THAT much drag.

another interesting thing, as you heat the battery up, get it into the yellow, the range goes up significantly on it.  The chemical action etc etc. 
yesterday i did a 285 mile round trip on my ribelle across north / ne florida hitting a shit ton of charging stations seeing which ones work, don't work, having fun... just a fun day out.

getting on some of those back country highways / roads with no traffic.  ooh yah i lit her up.  did some back to back to back charge / discharge cycles.  i finally started hitting some charge current limiting at a battery temp of about 45 C ish, it took me down to about 45 amps.. this caused the battery to rise in temp a bit from charging to about 50c which limited my charging to worst case about 32 amps.  this mainly i believe was because the bike was sitting in the hot ass sun with zero breeze on the battery to remove any heat.

 got back on the road and did an extended romp.  this time on the interstate which amazingly had very light traffic.    ironically the air flow was enough to actually cool the battery down a bit until i started coming over 100 ish.  at about 110 sustained for 5 minutes or so, battery temp started climbing slightly again.  i found it interesting that the air flow could keep the battery cool even at elevated speeds.  i also found that my range jumped significantly too.  i had one run that was 32 miles, varying speeds, only slowing really when i had to or, when the creep got me in the 120 range and i really needed to slow down to not super suck the battery.  elevated speed,  i was expecting battery drain to be 50 to 60 percent.  i was testing if i could 'have fun' between 2 charging stations, and not have to worry about percent left if one was closed and i had to run the additonal 12 miles to hit another station that worked for me.  i ended up with 38 percent suck down which frankly stunned me.  earlier 'romps in the hay' with battery temps much lower, slorped it down pretty hard at those speeds.. well maybe 20 mph faster but still.  the efficiency really surprised me.   Total disclosure though i was purposely trying to minimize battery drain, and was in a full race tuck hiding behind the wind screen as much as i could.  At those speeds the wind can start causing problems and i try to stay out of it if i can.

anyways, battery range, you can do a lot to change it, and yes, there really should be like an iso standard or something on how that is determined.  i am sure there is some standard there already but the manip can be huge, they need a lot more disclosure on how they ran it.

as for ice and efficiency.  not entirely sure for just bikes.  i have a chevy silverado and when doing 65 mph can get about 14 mpg maybe 15  now when i push that up to say 90 mph i can get 18 to sometimes 20 mpg.  the aero on that thing is horrid, the front is a wall really. loading that big ass v8 up yes i can see where the efficiency may come up a bit.   as another side note,  trees lining the highway even though they are what 100 feet back from the road, in the everglades.. but having a solid line of trees to break the wind can have a huge impact too, for whatever reasons,  towing my trailer i can go from 10 to 11 mpg to 14 ish just by getting into the treed off zones.  not sure how that would affect a bike,  i might have to make a run to orlando and do some investimugatin :)  Dainese is down there and i need to reset the airbag on my one suit i finally got fixed at a steal of a deal... hmm  maybe next week if weather is nice.

anyways, some of those big claims, they possibly may have done it, but there is so much manip that can be done to a vehicle to make the claims,.. there really needs to be a much higher standard of controls or much better disclosure of a LOT of parameters when they give their numbers.   and NO a dyno can NOT replicate real life very well even with a wind tunnel.  i want real life numbers, not fudge numbers
aaron
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princec

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2025, 03:20:40 PM »

I find I get between 6-9 miles per kWh typically in the summer. 6 on the motorway at 70, 9 is the average (I get 120 miles from a new Zero battery). My 1% range reduction per degree-C-below-20 rule of thumb seems to work well too.

This is why I want a 30kWh battery :) Then I might actually be able to take it properly touring again.

About that longevity thing ... I don't really care so much long they claim it'll last, what I do care about is the warranty on it. Zeros tend towards "worthless" as they lerp towards the battery warranty expiring. 5 years and they might as well just be a rolling chassis for all the trust anyone gives them. I don't blame anyone for this either... look at the support you can get for a 12 year old Zero. And every single one of the original Gen3 14.4 batteries was duff.

I just need to get 50,000 miles out of my bike before it explodes or falls to bits or turns to dust, don't care, I've written off the total cost and it'll come to 40 pence per mile in depreciation which would make it entirely reasonable value for money compared to any other bike I've owned. My Z900 has cost me £1 per mile.

Cas :)
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Specter

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2025, 05:18:17 PM »

if people charged them using the 20 80 rule they'd last a lot longer too, but there goes your range.   oh and you need to top it off once a week or it don't balance right.. so.. yah.  longevity... ok.   The batery inherently is going to go kaput about 8 years tops anyways, that's just the way the chemistry is.

aaro
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princec

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2025, 05:58:27 PM »

Which coincidentally, is 48,000 miles, at my current 6,000 miles a year ;)

Cas :)
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Motoproponent

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2025, 02:21:17 AM »

if people charged them using the 20 80 rule they'd last a lot longer too, but there goes your range.   oh and you need to top it off once a week or it don't balance right.. so.. yah.  longevity... ok.   The batery inherently is going to go kaput about 8 years tops anyways, that's just the way the chemistry is.

aaro

Don't most manufacturers bake the 20 80 rule right in? I mean I have a 22.5 KWH battery but only ever get access to 19KWH. So even when the bike says 100% its not really 100%. same for 0%, right.

Packs built in the last 5 to 10 years arent going to degrade like a 2010 Nissan Leaf battery.

I'll hit 40000 miles on my Experia next month. The metrics on my engineering screen make me think the pack is getting better with more use. lol
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princec

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2025, 02:26:48 AM »

No, they have a built-in margin top and bottom but it's higher and lower than the 80/20 marks, but that'll generally just ensure that the battery survives its warranty period. 80/20 will increase the longevity by at least a factor of 2 or somesuch.

Cas :)
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Specter

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2025, 05:00:54 AM »

The manufacturer have a little padding to make sure the battery keeps it's 'stated drop' over xx years.  so yes they'll take a 23 kw battery and call it a 21 so that when the 5 years is up, and it's dropped off, it's still at it's 80 percent of original claim.

The most damage tends to happen in the top and bottom 10 percent of the charge / discharge cycle.  So lets say you have a pack that can take 2000 cycles at 100 percent.  if you shaved 10 off each end it may see 5000 cycles, if you shaved 20 off each side ie 20  80 it may see 10000 cycles.  Even with all this though, there still is the inherent limitations of the chemistry .vs. longevity. the battery will tend to want to crap out at about 8 years or so, no matter how well you treated it.  Some of the newer techs, the iron phosphates are seeing better ageing on them but not by a whole bunch.  I think the best warranty you will see out there now is 10 years BUT that's only if you follow an 80  20 cycle on it.  I have not done extensive research on warranty/s but if anyone knows of a reliable company that is offering more than 10 years please let me know.

aaron
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princec

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2025, 03:03:43 PM »

Hoping that maybe they'll be rather cheaper in 10 years' time :D

Cas :)
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Stonewolf

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2025, 04:11:17 PM »

Honestly "in 10 years time" sounds more like a "What alternative cells could I replace these with" question given that battery technology is still rapidly improving.
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Specter

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2025, 11:56:07 PM »

That's pretty much the game right there.
look at what we had 10 years ago available to us, vs today?  would you buy that tech now, with what's available now, and probably cheaper too?
of course not.
so the whole warranty bla is mostly eye fluff to try to suck you into the sale.
10 years from now, who knows what will be all the rage, but can pretty much guarantee it'll make todays cutting edge look like a dull razor.

aaron
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princec

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2025, 02:10:34 AM »

tbh the 5 year warranty is the only reason I touched a Zero in the first place (good thing too). And it is also the reason why the bikes are virtually scrap value after 5 years... nobody sane would buy a 5 year old Zero of unknown provenance.

(Zero are missing a trick up-selling extended warranties here)

Cas :)
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MVetter

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Re: Motobob on the WN7
« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2025, 02:44:06 AM »

If people only knew the true reason Zero offered the 5 year unlimited mile warranty on the packs... well let's just say a lot fewer bikes would have been purchased.
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