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Messages - fcvarela

Pages: [1] 2
1
No bike is perfect for everyone. Why should Zero increase the price and weight of their entire range of bikes just to cater to a minority? Instead, anyone in that minority can simply get a bike with a Charge Tank. You're not asking for a solution to a problem, you're asking for a specific product (a faster charging FX/S). It's as relevant as me asking why they don't make a 110hp SR? Because the SR/F exists. You want a faster SR? Buy an SR/F. You want a faster charging Zero? Buy one with a charge tank.

I never argued for what you're saying I did.

2
I guess you missed my post or didn't want to accept it.  You can get a cord that lets you charge from a level 2 socket now.
The fact it's only pulling 650Ws don't matter if it's sitting there all night.

So can you make it work now with no house or garage?  Yes
Would it be nice to be able to charge it faster?  Yes
At a cost of $3500?  Not for me and certainly not for poorer people.

Still is it likely that Zero will be coming out with a bike like your saying you want next year?  I am guessing yes.

Really if you can't get "there" and back on a single 100% battery charge on a FXS you should get a bigger bike.

I think you missed where I said charging overnight isn't an option as there's time limits for public charging stations. It's happily pay that price for the option, in fact I did to get a charge tank on the S. I don't get why people here are so hostile to the fact that my use case is different. This is a different market. I'm not asking you to tell me how to make it work. It doesn't work. I'm asking why you think Zero hasn't updated the bikes to make them attractive here.

Instead, all I'm getting is people telling me I dont' need what I need because I should be ok with the US use-case. This is really weird. Anyway, abandoning this thread. Doesn't seem like there's an interest in a constructive discussion about how these bikes could own a lot more market share.

3
Diginow, for example? Single 3.3kw chargers about the same size as the 650w one on the FXS.
You do know Diginow is:

  • Out of business
  • Thousands of dollars
  • Larger than the on board charger for the S-platform bikes (which is almost twice the size of the X-platform charger)
  • Not more reliable

Also, you didn't link to them.

-Crissa

I don't think they're out of business, they just stopped selling those chargers as Zero made it very hard for third parties to reliably charge bikes. They don't cost more than the QuiQ external chargers that Zero sell added p to the same power. And there's literally videos of people on the internet replacing the S onboard charger with 3 diginow ones. They're not bigger. Literally 3 of them take up less space than the built-in one. Each of those 3 is 3.3kw.

4
but next to no-one is buying (or would buy) an electric bike without the ability to charge it at home.

I completely agree, but feels like were going in circles now, perhaps I phrased it wrong. English is not my native language. If the built-in charger is 3.3kw instead of 1.5kw it doesn't mean you can't charge it at home. It just takes less time that's all...

- 15 amps on 120v = 1.8kw
- 15 amps on 240v = 3.6kw

This would be supply dependent, same charger.

Again, never argued against home charging level 1. Just asked why it itsn't faster.

5
I have bought 5 electric motorcycles over the past 11 years and have used them for commuting and now for typically 100-mile round trips, or less. For me, overnight charging in my garage is just what I need. Plus, when I visit a relative, I can always plug into their home outlet with an extension cord to give me plenty of extra charge to get home. I still think that most Zero sales are to commuters or public agencies and 1300 watt charging is fast enough for those customers. As has been mentioned before, most motorcycle enthusiasts that buy electric will also have at least one ICE motorcycle as a backup for longer trips. (Or in my case, 5 ICE motorcycles.)  ;)

I know yours is the most common scenario, not arguing there. Just think other use cases have a potential to generate a lot more sales. Orders of magnitude more. Loads of people are buying electrics as their first bike either because they're young and it's their first one or because they would never have considered an ICE one but now that there's an alternative they're starting to ride. There are plenty of incentives these days that make motorcycles a lot more attractive than ever before. I think it's a mistake to ignore the change in demographics.

6
I personally do not think people will buy electric bikes without a place to charge them in/outside their home. I do not like waiting 30m-1hr for charging every day at a charge station. The technology for 5 min refills like a gasser is just not there. It's a limitation of the electric vehicle category itself.

I wouldn't find that particularly pleasant either, but people found ways of fitting those charge times into their routine as part of driving EV cars for example. I go for a walk in the park with the kids on weekends, could easily leave it charging it then for eample. Or while shopping, or while at a museum.

Also please note that my question wasn't specifically about faster level 2. Faster level 1 is all I'm wondering why the bikes don't have in 2020.

7
I personally do not think people will buy electric bikes without a place to charge them in/outside their home. I do not like waiting 30m-1hr for charging every day at a charge station. The technology for 5 min refills like a gasser is just not there. It's a limitation of the electric vehicle category itself.

I wouldn't find that particularly pleasant either, but people found ways of fitting those charge times into their routine as part of driving EV cars for example. I go for a walk in the park with the kids on weekends, could easily leave it charging it then for eample. Or while shopping, or while at a museum.

8
It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.

Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf
And like I said, those that live in flats tend not to be the kind to spend ten grand or more on a bike. Yes the bikes aren't for everyone but the lack of DC fast charging isn't the only or most important thing preventing those people from owning one, there's also the issue of cost and not having someone to park the bike other than on the street. People who actually buy bikes, any type of bike, tend to have the means to be able to park the bike close to their house where it can be charged (or in a garage). People who buy expensive almost definitely do.

There are many reasons why someone might choose a flat over a house that have nothing to do with socio-economics. Also, there might have been a misunderstanding somewhere, I never argued for DC fast charging on these commuter bikes (FXS, S). That would be awesome, but all I asked was if someone knew why they used 650w and 1500w instead of up to 3.3kw on the built-in ac chargers.
DC or just faster AC, neither is going to secure many sales for the reason that you're imagining. Sure there are some people who live in flats who also have the money for an expensive bike but don't have a garage to charge in, but they are a minority. The majority of bike owners, especially those who buy expensive bikes, have a means to charge the bike at or close to home over a period of many hours. It's as simple as that.

Zero caters to the home chargers, of which there are many, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you want something else then get something else, like an Energica, or a Livewire, or the Fuell Fllow when/if that comes out, or a Damon, or a Lightning, or get one of the many bikes with a removable battery and bring it indoors to charge.

As for why they're not 3.3kW, size, weight, cost, potentially heat output as the chargers are passively cooled and put most of the waste heat into the battery casing.

"The majority of bike owners, especially those who buy expensive bikes, have a means to charge the bike at or close to home over a period of many hours. It's as simple as that. " Im not arguing that this isn't true, I'm saying there are people - a lot of them - who would own a bike if they could charge it *slightly* faster.

I don't understand why having a slightly faster built-in charger would mean not catering for home chargers? And don't understand why people assume there isn't a market for a different use case than their own.

Would you be upset if Zero upgraded their built-in chargers on all bikes to 3.3kw or 6.6kw max? I can't see how that would break someone's ability to charge overnight if they can/want to.

Anyway, it seems people are uncomfortable withe the thought of Zero catering people they wrongly perceive as being on a lower socio-economic status which is certainly an unexpected result.

9
My original question was if someone knew why Zero opted to build their charging systems the way they did when they could have chosen something slightly different for a similar cost and that would make them appeakling to a much bigger market.

What I found out was that electric bike manufacturers are inadvertently gatekeeping and have convinced themselves that people who can't private park on a garage don't want to or can't afford to own a bike and shouldn't expect brands to have faster chargers as overnight 8h charging is enough for everyone. I'm confused. I understand that things might make sense for someone just the way they are but why deny that something else might be useful for a use case that's not your own?

10
It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.

Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf
And like I said, those that live in flats tend not to be the kind to spend ten grand or more on a bike. Yes the bikes aren't for everyone but the lack of DC fast charging isn't the only or most important thing preventing those people from owning one, there's also the issue of cost and not having someone to park the bike other than on the street. People who actually buy bikes, any type of bike, tend to have the means to be able to park the bike close to their house where it can be charged (or in a garage). People who buy expensive almost definitely do.

There are many reasons why someone might choose a flat over a house that have nothing to do with socio-economics. Also, there might have been a misunderstanding somewhere, I never argued for DC fast charging on these commuter bikes (FXS, S). That would be awesome, but all I asked was if someone knew why they used 650w and 1500w instead of up to 3.3kw on the built-in ac chargers.

11
They can make them, they do make them. Just don't make them available for all bikes. Third parties used to make them as well, very reliably and cheap.
If that's so, could you link to these miracle products?

-Crissa

Diginow, for example? Single 3.3kw chargers about the same size as the 650w one on the FXS.

12
Just because 66% are flats doesn't mean they're all without stoops or bike parking.

But that doesn't change the fact that Zero can't make the chargers faster, smaller, and batteries more reliable to mimic gasoline.

-Crissa

They can make them, they do make them. Just don't make them available for all bikes. Third parties used to make them as well, very reliably and cheap, and Zero shut them down by preventing them from working without seriously compromising the bike's warranty and/or forcing firmware updates to use replacement onboard chargers.

13
It seems like you just need to travel more than a few miles from your house. I've literally spent the last 10 minutes or so dropping into random places around London on Google Street View and pretty much every house has room to put a bike outside. The exceptions are flats, right outside or inside the City where the footpath is literally on your door step, and house that have a basement apartment underneath them. Those are a very small minority of the county, never mind the entire country.

Nah, the official numbers say an average of 44% of housing across London is houses. That means 66% flats. And not all those houses have front porches. Many, if not the majority, due to architectural styling have thin front areas mainly occupied by bushes/trees or no space at all.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/housing_in_london_2019.pdf

14
At least here in the UK those that choose to ride are typically those that also either have a garage or can park the bike right in front of their house, on a drive way or the top of their front garden. Especially those that are will to spend in the neighbourhood of £10k for a bike. Those that would have to resort to street parking, for example if they live in a flat, also tend to be poorer, and those that aren't choose to rent a garage a short walk from their home.

I live in London. The vast majority of houses here and in other european/asian cities - where a majority of potential customers exist - have neither a front porch, a garden or a garage. Most high paying jobs are in cities as well, which is also why most people who can afford a 10k bike live there. Even areas with dedicated parking don't have electricity much less infrastructure to charge a bike for 8h or more.

The fact is, there is a gigantic market for these bikes and they'd sell like hot pancakes if they were compatible with the infrastructure and city layouts of europe and Asia where a majority of people live in cities and have no private parking spaces regardless of how wealthy they are.
Plenty of houses in London have front gardens, or at least a paved area between the front of the house and the path. Not as big as we have closer to the countryside but large enough for a bike to fit in. Unless you're talking about the City or just outside it, in which case it's such a comparatively small area it's not worth catering to that minority.

If I didn't have the ability to charge at home I probably wouldn't have an electric bike unless it could charge in half an hour or less, and even that would be a pain. I don't want to have to go out every weekend and spend an hour or more of my time waiting for the bike to charge, especially if it's cold or raining. Being able to just go out the front of my house and spend a couple minutes plugging my bike in, not even needing to get fully dressed, and then going back in to carry on doing whatever it is I was doing is a huge convenience.

We have different experiences in London. I see plenty of houses without any space for a bike, in fact they are the majority in every borough i've ever been in. Plenty have some sort of back garden but very few have space for a bike in front. In any case, population densities clearly mean the vast majority of people don't have access to these. Whomever caters for these people first, captures a huge market.

15
It sounds like you're looking for an S with a charge tank.

 I see 11490 pounds for a base S 7.2 in the UK. So maybe 13k pounds with charge tank which would give a charge times of about 1.5 hours from empty.

Was just coming here to say that. You can order a 7.2kw S with a 6.6kw chargetank. However with the x / s platform, even charging at .6C heats the battery up. The charge tank would put you right at about an hour for a full charge if the battery isnt heat soaked.

This is true and is what I ended up doing, but when looking at the elcon/etc superchargers it clearly means it's possible to have 3.3kw charging on a very low size and cost when compared to the built-in ones on either model.

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