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Messages - ReverseTrike

Pages: [1]
1
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Weight of battery pack on 2014 FX
« on: May 30, 2014, 03:50:34 AM »
Based on the owner's manual from here: http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/resources/owners-manuals/2014/2014-Zero-Owners-Manual-FX.pdf on page 4.7, the powerpack weighs 53 lbs (24 KG).

Based on the website, the 2014 FX powerpack is 280lbs-238 lbs= 42 lbs.

Based on the powertrain only from Zero's website, the powerpack is also 42 lbs (for 2013 model). Can someone confirm if the 2014 single powerpack on FX is indeed 11lbs heavier?

Thanks


2
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Series hybrid powertrain using Zero motors
« on: December 13, 2013, 09:53:59 AM »
Quote from: emotofreak on December 13, 2013, 06:57:39 AM
Claims 1800ft/min climb :)

I do not think that this is a claim. If you do the math for the Gull the rate of climb for the UL with the 54HP motor and Rotax gearbox comes out to that based on the ROC of the regular UL on 28HP.

The interesting part is the tremendous weight gain and weight in the nose and even then that high of the ROC  8)

Quote from: firepower on December 13, 2013, 08:31:03 AM
Why not ice>alternator>controller>electric motor>prop. why need batteries?
Do it same as diesel electric trains / mineing equipment.

I dont know how this works as a separate controller will be required for each motor but I do not know for sure  :-\

3
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Series hybrid powertrain using Zero motors
« on: December 13, 2013, 04:54:26 AM »
I am an aerospace engineer and all these new electric motor developments are a complete game changer for General Aviation(GA) and I want to explore their use to replace the current 80 year old ICE. The batteries are bottleneck for range so let me go straight to the point:

For a Series hybrid (like here http://www.siemens.com/innovation/en/news/2013/e_inno_1318_1.htm) Firewall forward(FWF) for a GA aircraft(in range of~60HP-80HP) the power train is as follows assuming 90% best case efficiency of all components that are all off the shelf,

ICE->75-5motor@90%->Controller(size4)@90%->Battery@90%->Controller(Size6)@90%->75-7motor@90%----->Propeller

or
ICE--[blackbox @ 59%]----->Propeller

So, I have lost >40% of my engine efficiency even without seeing the prop  >:(
   1. Is there a better path of doing this without going the way of parallel hybrid?
   2. I am looking at the Generac & Aixro (35hp continuous) as the engine choice so the motor/controller should be able to hold that much power for regen?
   3. Can I run the 75-5 motor in regen mode to recharge the batteries rather than redoing the controller? Basically I want to use the FX motor as an alternator for a geneset(range extender) that is directly connected to the PTO end of the ICE.
   4. Can I go around the batteries and directly power 75-7 motor rather than charging the batteries in cruise and use the batteries only for take off & climb?
   5. Again, using the FX motor+ controller allows me to use off the shelf available components rather than hooking up another motor that might do a better job. I know of a lot of other motors but this plug and play flexibility reduces the complexity (for me) many folds.

I would appreciate your expert opinion as for sure mine is flawed. I know I do not know :)
   

4
General Discussion / Re: Electric Cars 1st and 2nd in Formula Student
« on: November 12, 2013, 10:19:22 PM »
95% Of All Trips Could Be Made In Electric Cars
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071688_95-of-all-trips-could-be-made-in-electric-cars-says-study



Quote from: NoiseBoy on November 08, 2013, 04:46:54 PM
I'm not dissing ICE i'm just saying that purposely restricting the development of a new technology is a terrible idea.  Whatever happened to progress? Motorsport has been stagnant aside from tiny incremental improvements for decades now. 

If you only want to travel 50 miles or so, whether it be a race or a commute to work, electric is better.  I sincerely hope I never have the misfortune of having to buy an ICE again.

5
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Farasis 25Ah cell datasheets
« on: October 15, 2013, 09:42:28 PM »
Noiseboy, sad for me as all your recommendations are true but let me give you my side of the story.
1. I am an aero guy and not electrical and want a complete plug and play system that is off the shelf and the Zero gets me that at a very good price point.
2. I am already trying to balance out all the things needed for the trike and powertrain is one of the things that can make or break the performance of this thing. I really do not want to reinvent the wheel and make new mistakes and learn and rework. I already have a lot on my plate. Time is of essence and so is money!
3. The flexibility that I get with zero battery pack (removable, waterproof, stackable, start with one and then add, BMS build in, proven...etc ) can not be achieved by me. Is there something else available that I can use off the shelf  that can replace the Zero battery with 40C+ off the shelf available pack? and how will it work with the existing Zero motor, the controller etc, I really do not know!
4. Frontal surface area is not the right measure of the drag, it is the equivalent flat plate area. It even includes the cooling drag(for ICE installed vehicles). I can make a very large shape almost approaching an RV with the drag of that is less that that of a Cessna aircraft. Actually there is no magic to that. A slender frontal area normally does give you (as a good starting point) low drag but there is so much that can be done beyond that.
5. My other interest is to use the Zero powertrain for aviation like the eGull except that the implementation is for a two seater and requires about 70HP minimum for take off and climb out for 3 minutes. The added advantage is that the removable Zero  battery pack (being the most expensive part of the powertrain) can be installed in the trike or the aircraft depending on your recreational use for the day. If you want I can point out atleast 10 mission critical advantages that electric powertrain brings to GA, I have been waiting for this for a long time and I think we are very close so I am trying to solve the puzzle.

I am still at the design phase as I want to indulge when I have all the parts in place and understand how they come together and their limitations.

All the posters here have helped me learn so much and I continue to do that still. Please keep your comments coming. I hope to start a new thread in the not so distant future on my build; gathering ammo now  :D
Quote from: NoiseBoy on October 15, 2013, 03:29:42 PM
Sounds like you are doing a top speed run reversetrike so do you actually need to be lugging 11.4KWh around?  Sounds like something higher density like LiPo built with 40C+ packs would do the job better, although I appreciate that weight isnt much of an issue for you, it would take up alot less space so you could make it smaller to improve frontal surface area and you could slot small packs all over the bike in different places so they are easier to cool and you can place them to move weight around and maximise stability.

6
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Farasis 25Ah cell datasheets
« on: October 11, 2013, 10:42:09 PM »
Hi protomech,
This is very good information for people like me working on other designs using but will be using Zero's powertrain.
I am an aero and not an electric  so I am trying to educate myself as much as I can and would appreciate you response to my questions,
1. The Size 6 Sevcon allows the 75-5 motor to go to 73HP but looks like the limiting duration of 10 seconds for that power(besides cooling) is the ZF8.5 battery pack. What happens to the battery power draw duration when you go to ZF11.4, does it stay at 10 seconds or increases and if so by how much under the assumption that the motor cooling is adequate?
2. I need to run the motor for a few minutes at it's maximum power but also want the flexibility of the removable battery pack so can I hook up four battery packs together to get to the ZF11.4 storage without using it's battery pack?

Thanks
Quote from: protomech on October 11, 2013, 07:11:34 PM
Farasis produces the cells used in the 2013 Zero. Brammo also switched to Farasis cells for their Empulse RR racebike at Indy this year.

I recall looking for the datasheets at launch without success.

CDI sells the Farasis 25 Ah cells (say that 5x fast), though they do not list the prices directly. Interestingly, they also provide a datasheet (PDF)!

(Maybe this is only news to me, but w/e)

Compared to the EIG C020 20Ah cells (PDF) used in the 2012 bikes, the Farasis cells are slightly denser - both weight and volume - and claim slightly less power density, 7C @ 10s vs EIG 10+C. (which is fine.. even the smaller ZF8.5 bike can provide 52 kW of power for 10s).

Zero appears to run the cells slightly harder than that - they would need to pull about 10C from the cells to get 20 kW for the ZF2.8 bikes and 40 kW for the ZF5.7 MX.

Similarly, Brammo will need to pull pretty hard from the cells to get the power they need racing. Figure 130 kW @ 14 kWh = pretty close to 10C as well.

Farasis also produces 18650 cells, but they don't appear especially noteworthy @ 2400 mAh max. Samsung sells 2900 mAh cells, and Panasonic's 3100 and 3400 mAh cells (slightly lower voltage) are similar to those used for the Tesla Model S.

7
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Zero 2014 Model Speculations
« on: September 13, 2013, 08:54:33 PM »
So Doc, how long can the 73HP zero run at it's maximum output before the temperature light starts blinking? Can you shine some more light on this .....


Quote from: Doctorbass on September 10, 2013, 11:42:17 AM


If they want to go higher power they will need to change the controller model.
Some already tweaked their zero with the Size 6  660A Sevcon controller and got about 73hp at the wheel wich is awsome.

Apparently Sevcon have  also a 150V Size 6 desing but their PDF is mentionning "NOT AVAILLABLE YET contact us"

This might be a great opportunity for Zero to get these and double power of the 2013 wich would be like 660A and let say 36s ( 150V)

meaning a 99kW model ( 133hp ) !!! :twisted:

Doc

8
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Temperature warning at high speed
« on: September 13, 2013, 08:50:12 PM »
So am I correct in saying that the FX/DS/S can all be used at wide open throttle for atleast 5 minutes before the temperature gets out of control for the controller and motor?

I want to know the duration when a Zero powertrain can run at it's maximum output.

9
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Gas trike becoming 2013 Zero electric!
« on: August 21, 2013, 01:20:02 AM »
Thanks for the clarification. The reason for going with the FX Vs the MX was,
1. Comes with the DOT tires
2. Turn signal lights and switches in place  because the less I need to do any electrical the better it is for me  :D
3. High torque
4. Full Dash

The biggest advantage that I see for the MX is the horsepower. My trike will be about 600 lbs when all done but I am also considering a genset at the front in the nose which will make this weight go up 100+ lbs so I am torn between the added 10 hp of the MX. Being an aero engineer, I have a good hold on the aerodynamics and the trike will have at most 1/2 the drag of the current FX.

10
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Gas trike becoming 2013 Zero electric!
« on: August 20, 2013, 09:51:42 PM »
Thanks Trikester for the reply but I am confused regarding your comment about the encoder cable from motor to the controller. In the setup I have suggested that cable should be exactly where it is by default in the FX or not? :-\

Is there anything else that I should be concerned about in my setup? I am sorry but I am not an electrical engineer and do not understand the complications involved so I am trying to do the minimal amount of changes I can to the FX powertrain. Also, I cant get the powertrain kit from Zero because I am an individual and not a company so I will have to get a FX and then use as much of the standard bike I can to get to where I want.

I do appreciate all your help and comments.

11
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Gas trike becoming 2013 Zero electric!
« on: August 20, 2013, 02:39:30 AM »
Hi Trikester,

I hope you get your battery pack so we can get a good read on your test drive. I am also working on designing my reversetrike and have tried to do the best to get all the weight and balance in place. As I am not an electrical engineer, I have tried my best to stick with the known Zero configuration for FX ::)  I do not want to hijack your thread but would appreciate it if you can comment on my basic powertrain location and if extending the controls/display on the handle bar to the rear mounted powertrain will work by just adding an extension(74" as shown in the drawing) to the existing harness. The thought process is to keep all the HV stuff as is and also use the FX frame where I can to minimize machining. If you want me to take this offline and PM you please let me know.


Thanks.

12
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Gas trike becoming 2013 Zero electric!
« on: June 14, 2013, 09:17:51 PM »
Thanks for the detailed reply. I knew there was more going on the background than just your mechanical effort. Also this is the part about the design that makes me very nervous as I am not an electrical engineer. I am all ears and really appreciate you logging your progress here for people like me.

I also have another question about reverse. Your spyder RT has a reverse and I read on one of the forums that it is easy to incorporate reverse in a DC motor using the controller. You may not need it due to the low weight of your trike but is it something that can be incorporated in a strightforward way if needed?

Thanks again.

BTW, that gull is an excellent example of what can be done today with the Zero powertrain. Mark Beierle also posts every now and then on electric lazair 100%scale thread. The general aviation industry needs these desperately.
Quote from: trikester on June 14, 2013, 12:02:19 PM
I'm jealous! I never went from hang gliders to ultralights because I didn't want a screaming engine in my ears. I would love to fly electric launch glider (I fly the R/C ones now).

The wiring harness that comes with the kit is very restrictive. It is set up for the FX where the battery connectors are side by side. The negative high current cable is a "Y" that doesn't allow the batteries to move apart. I bought another negative cable and cut the "Y" section off of both of them. I will now run the two cables, one from each connector. There are also signal wires going between the battery connectors and I will splice longer wires into the center section of that bundle. There is a twisted pair in that signal cable so I sure hope I don't get electrical noise problems with it extended. Zero already warned me that I need to be careful routing the motor position sensor cable, especially if I extend it (I don't think I'll have to). They have had motor cut-out problems with noise pickup on that cable. I may have to shield it.

Basically, the factory harness has everything in close (like on the bike) so it is very difficult to work with on custom designs. I think I got everything except the battery connectors close enough that I won't have to modify any more of the harness than what I described. As for the motor, which is not very far from the Sevcon, I still needed to extend the three power cables (they are very short). I ordered three 19" (shortest I could find) automotive starter cables from Auto Zone (on the web). They are 4 gauge copper with lugs swagged on each end. I'll splice them onto the motor wires by bolting the lugs together. The motor cables are 2 gauge but I should still be OK using 4 ga extensions, since they will be in the moving air.

Since location of the battery connections seems to be the most difficult problem, because it involves large gauge high current cables, I would like to see Zero produce a plug-in extension (connectors on each end) for one battery. The stock cable could go directly to one battery and then the extension adapter from the other connector to the other battery.

I had assumed all along that the wiring would present more of a problem than the mechanical design. I'm beginning think that I was correct in that assumption.

Trikester

13
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Gas trike becoming 2013 Zero electric!
« on: June 14, 2013, 04:29:52 AM »
Good progress.

Can you comment on how far away I can mount the battery modules from the controller and the motor.
1. Does the kit has long enough wires to move the battery by a few inches or by a few feet away from the controller?
2. Are you using any power extension chords for mounting the batteries side by side to fit?
3. If not, how much more room is left to move the batteries. I am trying to get a good handle of the tolerances I have to fit my design.

Also, I have read somewhere to keep the batteries as close to the controller as possible. Does this also hold for spacing between the controller and the motor if the correct wire gauge is used that avoid resistive losses. how much can I move the battery away from the motor specifically for the FX kit is my question. Sorry if this is a dumb question but I am a aerospace guy.

Also regarding using this for self launch gliders (not to take this thread away) as an aerospace engineer let me clarify a few things,
1. A modified Agni motor (from earlier year Zero) is available as a complete kit from electravia (http://www.electravia.fr/) for sometime now so this FX kit at a fraction can be directly plugged in at a max 3700rpm to a 50" prop.
2. The limitation is not the max power but "sustained" max powered for take off & climb(5 minute duration at 27HP/44HP for FX is required to reach altitude safely). I do not know if the motor can achieve enough air cooling
for 5 minutes. But if it can, this is indeed a plug and play aviation package and the "BEST" one out there too!
3. I do not want to get into the details of the flight but power relates to velocity^3. At 10HP you can still have fly at 70% of the top speed of the aircraft with a 28HP rated engine. Most gliders only need 3-10HP to sustain flight and that is the key that electric is so effectively used in self launch gliders now. You need full power for take off and climb and then reduce throttle to 15% and enjoy the scenery :).......BTW, an ICE is not even close to practical in doing so!
I hope it clarifies some facts and I hope to get back to this wonderful build thread.



14
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Gas trike becoming 2013 Zero electric!
« on: May 12, 2013, 03:26:00 AM »
Thanks a bunch Trikester and yes I will need the 12v converter too so the price with it is even better.

I am assuming that this is for the 5.7kw setup. BTW, I have looked and the off the shelf cost of something like the Agni with all the add ons is at leat $8000 brand new and it is not plug and play. I wish you and zero luck.

15
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Gas trike becoming 2013 Zero electric!
« on: May 10, 2013, 11:25:11 PM »
Hi Trikster,

Now that you have your FX drivetrain, can you give us a better idea of the cost and the component list. This setup will be so much more reliable and complete than me buying a million parts from different vendors. I for one would appreciate it as I am working on a reverse trike too. I do not see this being offered through their website and do not want to start calling them until I have all the necessary details in place.

Thanks

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