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trade in credit towards a 2014?  how much trade in?  Can that still be attained?

Zero sent letters to 2010-2012 model owners in late August offering a trade-in of the "classic" models towards 2014 models.  If memory serves, it was roughly $2k to $5k depending on the year and model.  There was no clarity as to how long the offer was valid.

When I spoke with a dealer over a month ago, only 2014 DS and S models (with maximum batteries?) were available for purchase.

The source of accurate information about availability and trade-in price would be a Zero dealer.

Quote from: pinaz on September 22, 2015, 01:34:00 AM

However, what sort of self-respecting engineer programs firmware into an ECU module without any upgrade mechanism and then pours quarts of epoxy over the PCB?

Also, any industrial electronics are going to be potted in epoxy. This is for vibration and moisture resistance. Look at any motorcycle regulator/rectifier, ECU, or dashboard controller.

I think there may be a misunderstanding.  Just to clarify on the epoxy: I'm not criticizing the use of epoxy per se.  The problem was that there wasn't a mechanism to update the software once the PCB had been encapsulated in epoxy. 

I've seen Intel industrial evaluation boards back in the '80s that were program-once and toss the entire board.

To be fair... in the 80s, ROMs were "mask ROMs", program-once, or variants of the "program-once" in ceramic-packages with a window that could be exposed to UV light to erase it.  Such approaches became obsolete by the mid 90s.  Zero didn't design their ECU in the 1980s; their microcontroller has re-programmable NOR flash.

Fortunately for me Zero is local and they were able to help me with a new bike

were you not offered the trade in?

Given your proximity to and direct dealings with Zero, you must be in California.  I think things are a little different there.  You have to admit that you have cherry-picked a more rosy market.

Even if I tried to sell out-of-state to California, the various motorcycle shipping options state up to 15 days to ship.  Zero's user manual says the battery can't be taken off the charger for more than 3 days.

The only local offer was to take a trade-in for a '14 DS/S, but that isn't a remotely similar bike to the XU.  Getting $3k knocked off the most expensive models in the lineup of a two-year old model doesn't mean the existing bikes have value.  The dealer was trying to claim that I could then sell the bike, but just the sales tax wipes out most of the trade-in, and then the '14 models are simply no longer worth their list price.

For comparison, when I sold my long-serving Suzuki GS500E a few years ago, I had multiple buyers emailing me within minutes of my Craigslist post.

Pinaz, I feel I should mention that there are discounted 2014 bikes available because of a fleet deal that fell through and not because they were 'gathering dust' unable to be sold.

Good to know... I talked with a dealer about them, but no one mentioned this.  Thanks.  BTW, at the time I was told that there were only '14 DS and S models available; I might have figured ZF would be more popular fleet vehicle.  I guess it depends on the type of fleet.

Thanks, CrashCash for your well-reasoned post.  You make plenty of good points.

Expanding from what you said, there do tend to be two broad categories of motorcycle buyers.  (This is a generalization, of course.)  One is the sort who just writes a check to the dealer for each maintenance (and possibly trades in bikes all the time).  The second type is the OCD type who works on every nut and bolt of their bikes (and possibly buys them to keep for longer periods).

I think Zero's emphasis is towards the former.  The dealers get information on a limited need-to-know basis; the buyers get nada.  If the owner is someone who just wants to ride the bike, such details are unimportant.

I very deliberately posted in the pre-2013 discussion, as my criticism is focused on the earlier models.  However, my reservation is that if Zero has a track record of pushing earlier bikes under rug after 2 or so years, will their behavior be any better with the newer models?

My hope would be that the 2013+ are less risky.  The saving grace may be that the 2013+ models have much more engineering effort invested; the platforms may be much more serviceable (subject to battery compatibility) even if Zero has abandoned them.

That unsold 2014 models are collecting dust when 2016 models are about to be released suggests to me that the market also has some concern about a window of support.

I don't agree with your assertion that a service manual must describe from the bottom up on the flow of electrons.  If this were so, internal combustion itself (not to mention highly complex carburetor operation) would need to be described in ICE service manuals, and this is simply not so.

Even a wiring diagram (routine for any vehicle) is apparently too much to ask for from Zero, and that doesn't sit well with me at all.

From a strictly business perspective, I can't fault Zero's strategy.  Documentation is hard.  Customer support is costly.  Doing without these cuts down on expenses.  (Also, venture capitalists always want a "barrier to competitive entry", and being as opaque as possible helps this cause too.)

However, the bikes themselves are evidence to buyers as to the care of the designers.  There were some really amateur mistakes in the early models that give me pause.  For example, I mentioned that operating the eco/sport switch on a 2011 causes the bike to come to a halt.  Apparently, they fixed this in the 2012.  However, what sort of self-respecting engineer programs firmware into an ECU module without any upgrade mechanism and then pours quarts of epoxy over the PCB?  (What sort of self-respecting engineer doesn't de-bounce a switch!?)  Zero would never even acknowledge the problem to me.  I presume they did that because their shortsighted design would necessitate shipping a brand new ECU with a software fix.  If Zero had handled such things better, I'd be more tolerant of being an early-adopter.

You make it sound pretty grim.  I'm a retired engineer myself, and still naive enough to think that something could be done with the basic platform of a 2011 Zero S - seems to me that it can't all be junk ....... !

Let me put it this way:

Buying a Zero within the two year from model year period assures you the possibility of warranty repairs (but be ready for unreliable operation and periods of inoperation).

Buying a Zero after that point is no better than buying a hobbyist electric conversion of a motorcycle.  Perhaps a conversion is somewhat better in that there is hope for buying standard maintenance components.

For example, the Delrin assembly that I despise so much (and which I got flack above as being "normal" for dirt bikes) is custom milled, not mentioned in the user manual as a wear item, and cannot be purchased like the "normal" dirt bikes that are being compared to.

As long as you are comfortable with the money invested being completely lost, I think it can be a worthy (if not fun) experiment.  I feel sorry for people who bought these on finance terms (appropriate for ICE motorcycles) under the mis-belief that the bike would survive that period.

If everyone had this attitude, we wouldn't get any new products of this complexity. Zero is not out to bilk you, they're trying to survive and grow.

Zero keeps shafting its existing customers to sell bikes to more first-time suckers.

I think the 2013+ crowd is beginning to awake to this.  Look at this forum; 2013 model owners find that the batteries are different to 2014+ models.

If Zero was more upfront about their strategy, I would be more sympathetic.  I'll re-quote a post I made 23 Jan 2013 citing a still unmet claim from Zero:

And here are two (optimistic) quotes from director of customer service Richard Kenton:

"We’re working to minimize that risk for new dealers and customers. All of our current owners and buyers are essentially E.V. advocates. We touch base with our riders for real-world feedback on usage, problems, potential changes and accessories. We are currently small and agile enough that we can really reach out to our customers and incorporate what we hear."

"We now have flat rate manuals, parts fiche and service manuals all online, in multiple languages to service our different markets."

http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/zero-motorcycles-aims-lead-electric-bike-revolution

These days, they don't even pretend to sell parts for models prior to 2012.  I suspect that will become 2013 in a matter of weeks/months when the 2016 model comes out.

I think "Zero Maintenance" (e.g. throw it away... how very green) should be their tag line.