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Messages - waynebhayes

Pages: [1]
1
Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ / Re: Side stand extension for soft ground
« on: November 02, 2022, 07:00:43 AM »
Last week I tried the DSR/X and, among other things, I noticed that its side stand had a larger pad area than my SR/F. Makes sense for a machine that is also meant to be taken offroad.

Since I wouldn't mind having something a bit larger as well, is anyone already using an extender? Looking that up on AliExpress brings tons of choices, but all pretty specific to a brand and model, nothing for Zero Motorcycles.

Um... if you don't care about aesthetics, a crushed pop can (.... and I have no idea why they say the video may be "inappropriate for some viewers".... sheesh) works really well and nothing else suitably appropriate is cheaper or easier to replace...  (No that's not my video but that's how you do it).

2
Wayne,

To which "new OS" are you referring?

New version of the Cypher OS---this is completely independent of the firmware versions, I believe, and it can only be done at the dealer. When my dealer offered it, I just said "yeah, sure". He said it would support some newer features that are on the horizon... the whole layout of the dashboard changed (which I don't mind), but that's exactly when the jerky speedometer + jerky cruise control problems started.

3
Folks,

Perhaps "lousy" is a bit too strong... but ever since I upgraded to the newer OS on my Zero SR/S, two very annoying changes occured.

1) While the speedometer used to show a stable, smoothly changing value, now the number flickers up-and-down a few mph several times per SECOND... yes, that's right, the number on the speedometer fluctuates 1-2 mph up and down with a frequency of about 3-5 Hz, all the time, without fail, even when travelling at a perfectly steady constant speed. This makes it hard to determine what my ACTUAL speed is.

2) And speaking of a constant speed... cruise control used to work perfectly. Now... at various speeds (seems to be in the 30-50mph range, or at an energy usage of 60-100 wpm), the cruise control can't maintain a steady *actual* speed even if I can do so readily using the throttle manually. If I engage the cruise control at those speeds, it starts to lurch forward and backward, speeding up and slowing down at a frequency only slightly slower than the above: maybe 1-2Hz. It's not dangerous, but it's uncomfortable and disconcerting enough that I simply have to turn it off unless I'm over about 100wpm or below about 50wpm.  Obviously it's applying too much torque in an attempt to hit the desired speed, overshooting and then "porpoising" up and down around the desired speed. The problem occurs even if I'm in "Eco" or "Rain" mode, where it's *supposed* to have minimal torque. I've even created a custom "WIMP" mode where everything is set to 0%, and the problem occurs even there.

Has anybody else noticed either of these problems? Again it's only started happening about 6 months ago when I upgraded the OS at the dealership; I've waited this long to report it since I figured it was so obvious and annoying that one of the Firmware updates would fix these two issues, but they've been constant through half a dozen firmware updates.

Thanks.

Wayne B Hayes
2020 Zero SR/S Premium, currently with 5500 miles.

4
Folks,

I've tried several tank bags for the Zero SR/S, but all of them (until now) would somehow block the charge ports or wouldn't allow the tank lid to open easily without unhooking stuff.

Finally, I found this Srek one: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B091YHH58N

It's a bit small for my taste, but the really cool thing is that it can be attached directly to the tank lid and the lid alone. That mean it opens with the tank lid, and doesn't block the charging ports even if the lid is closed.

I've created a little video; three links below. (I haven't bothered to upload it to YouTube yet):

iCloud link (full resolution, 90MB, but will expire in about 30 days): https://share.icloud.com/photos/07brNtfXQYfv2CPWpKq1ese1w

Dropbox link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4uyrq7wwjhu9jk/Zero%20SRS%20Tank%20Bag.MP4?dl=0

Google Drive link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Obzwr9OCqP-sPEazDriTLHYDbKxMW8xn/view?usp=sharing

Let me know if anybody has any questions.

5
Folks,

I have a 2021 SR/S about 2 months old. I bought the Shad SH36 side cases with the bike, and the dealer installed them. They're great... except for the fact that they're installed so far forward that there's no space for my passenger to place her feet! She either needs to go on tip-toe with her heels up and against the front of the case, or she needs to place the middle of her foot on the peg... not comfortable either way.

Does anybody else have this problem? Did my dealer install them too far forward? It looks to me like the mounting point on the back foot peg is fixed... so it's not the dealer's fault, it's Shad's (or Zero if the mount is from Zero.. I'm not sure who designed the mount).

Photos attached to give you an idea.


6
Peter,

Very cool. We should connect. Wanna send me an email? I'm whayes@uci.edu. Let's compare notes.

7
In reply to all at once:

Yes, 2v+7 means v is velocity, so 50mph requires about 107 Wh/mile, on a flat highway with no wind.

Yes, I'm getting Wh/mile from the "instant" number on the dash, but only after it settles down since it's become obvious that it's not really "instant" but a running average over the past 10-20s or so. So I maintain the speed (using cruise control) until the number stops changing.

And as for the v2 component, you are correct except that would be if we were measuring Watt-hours per unit time, which is usually how a physicist would do it.... but we're not. We're measuring Watt-hours per unit distance. So if you double your speed, the Wh/second would quadruple (square of 2), but you'd cover the same distance in half the time; and if you triple your speed, Wh/s would go up by a factor of 9 (square of 3) but you'd cover the distance in 1/3 the time, etc... so those factors cancel out and the whole equation comes back to being linear. So when measuring Wh/mile, we actually expect it to increase linearly with speed (at least approximately).

8
Lot of really good answers here, folks.  Thanks. I certainly agree the SR/[SF] are a step in the right direction.

9
So, I did some interesting experiments last night on a mostly empty freeway.

The SR/S requires almost exactly 2v+7 Wh/mile at speed v for v from 30 to about 80 or 85 mph, in steps of 5 mph. Above 80 or 85 it goes up faster. At 90mph it was quite a bit above 2x+7, I don't recall exactly how much. This was all sitting normally (upright, comfortable) in the saddle.

Also, ducking behind the windscreen makes a huge difference. I was able to get back, or even below, to 2v+7 at 90mph by ducking behind it. (Was also much less buffeting on my head. :-)  Ducking behind the windscreen allowed me to get below even 2v (ie., 2v+0) for the larger values of v (makes no difference below about 45-50mph). So quite a difference having the torso + head up in the breeze vs. tucked in behind the windscreen.

These experiments got me back to the hilly area around my home with only 4% battery.... so of course I decided to see what happens when you reach 0%. My home is at the bottom of a moderately sized hill, so I just went up and down the hill a bunch of times. Going up this hill required just over 1% battery each time... so I went up+down about 4 times before it reached zero.... and then did another 4 times.  So even at 0% there seems to be a buffer of about another 3-4% remaining.... though torque + power are both greatly reduced. I was unable to get beyond about 25-30mph even with full throttle when it was 0% and "below".  (All the time I was wondering whether this would injure the battery, but I've run lithium-ion laptop batteries into the ground tons of times without ill-effect, so I'm guessing the same is true of the bike's battery.)

The battery "died" on the way down the hill on the last run. Message came up saying "Battery depleted" on the dash, though the lights + dash were still illuminated. Doing the same on my older SR, there was literally nothing left when the juice died--headlight went off, bike was totally dead. On the SR/S at least the lights stayed on. But in both cases, turning the bike off for about 10 minutes and turning it back on, there was power to the engine... though on the SR/S I didn't have the courage to take it back out again.  It was past midnight by that point, well past my normal bedtime.

Another thing: during the day yesterday there was quite a strong wind on the Pacific Coast Highway. It was about 15-20mph. I noticed that, yes, when I was going directly into the wind, then just adding about 15 to my indicated speed gave approximately 2v... that is, energy required was about 2(v+w), where w is the wind speed. Was hard to measure precisely since the road is not straight and there was traffic.

Interestingly, when the wind was oblique, say at 45 degrees, the energy requirement seemed to go up, not down.  It's possibly because the cross-section of the bike at 45 degrees is much bigger than head-on, so that counteracts the cosine(angle) decrease that you'd expect from an object with constant cross-section.

Not sure what I'm going to do with all this info... I was just curious.

I think it would be fairly easy to create a phone app that, without any map or navigation ability, simply predicted Wh/mile under simple conditions like the above. Beyond that would be much harder. Would there be any interest in such an app?

PS: I did the same measurements on an SR/F and the result was about 2v+10 Wh/mile. Though the SR/F is a bit better (add 7 rather than add 10), I would've expected the difference to be greater given the nice fairing + windscreen. Alas, it doesn't appear to be a huge difference.

--
Wayne B. Hayes
(previously owned an S, SR, and SR/F, now have an SR/S).

10
Folks,

So far, I've owned a Zero S (2019), a Zero SR (2021), an SR/F (2020), and now I have an SR/S (2021).

About the only significant difference between the S and SR, I think, is that the S has a 7.2kWh battery, and the SR has a 14.4kWh. According to the current Zero website, the S weighs 313 lbs, the SR weighs 414---a difference of 101 lbs.

I have not been able to find a definitive answer anywhere as to the weight of a naked 14.4kWh battery, but from the above let's say a ballpark estimate is 200 lbs (101 lbs per 7.2 kWh).

The SR/S and SR/F both weigh about 500 lbs, give or take. So, adding a second 14.4kWh battery would take it up to about 700 lbs... which is about the same weight as a BMW K 1600 GS---which is also a physically huge bike, so there would be no problem making a Zero physically bigger to accommodate the battery space.

As another comparison, the Honda Gold Wing clocks in at about 800 lbs. Also huge and heavy---but well-balanced, just like the BMW. The Gold Wing has a 5.5Gal tank and gets about 42mpg -- giving a range of 230 miles.

So... why the heck doesn't Zero just make a touring bike that has 28.8kWh of battery, weighs 700 lbs, and has a range of over 300 miles in the city, 200 miles at 55mph, and 160 miles at 70mph?  Heck, add another 7.2kWh and we're at 36kWh, about 800 lbs (like a Gold Wing), and the range will be 200 miles even at 70mph.

So we could strike at the ballpark of a Gold Wing with the same weight and same range.

I for one would jump at the opportunity to have a comfortable touring Zero with a range of 200 miles. And it's do-able right now---at least in principle.

Why haven't they done this? Is it on their radar at all?

11
What happens when you plug a 100 watt bulb into at 15 amp circuit?

LOL. Good point.

I'm a software guy. It's been a long time since I've thought about circuits.

12
I currently have a 2021 SR with charge tank, which accepts a J-1772 plug. From what I understand, the Charge Tank is rated for 6kW. What happens if I connect it to a J-1772 rated at more than 6kW? For example, there's an 80A TeslaTap (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TQDKZQC/) that claims it would allow me to visit any Tesla charger, including Destination chargers. 80A @ 220V gives 17.6kW. Would I damage the SR's charge tank by plugging it into such a charger using the TeslaTap?

I'm assuming this would not be a problem, because even if the Charge Tank really can't take more than 6kW, then it would be smart enough to draw only 6kW even on a charger that can offer up to 17.6kW. But of course if I'm wrong I'd have a very expensive problem on my hands.

A similar question arises for an SR/F: the Premium is rated for 6kW, plus one can get a 6kW charge tank; together capable of 12kW.... but what if I skip the Charge Tank and just plug a 12kW J-1772 into the Premium without the charge tank?

Thanks!

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