ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: shayan on January 27, 2020, 02:26:53 PM
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This is hopefully the faired version that was being talked about!
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Mine says 24.02.2020 8)
https://srs.zeromotorcycles.com/ (https://srs.zeromotorcycles.com/)
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Well one thing in consistent... Between common words like "Zero" and semi-regex expressions like SR/F or SR/S, it certainly makes it cryptic to search the Interwebs for relevant info at times. They could learn a lot from other manufacturers in the marketing department.
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Mine says 24.02.2020 8)
https://srs.zeromotorcycles.com/ (https://srs.zeromotorcycles.com/)
To quote my wife....You know what I mean
;D
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Here we go again. Another tease with not even a hint of what might be introduced within a month, other than the letter "S". ::) I kind of hope this new model isn't so popular that Zero has to shut down all of the other 2020 production lines to manufacture the S model. ;)
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Unlike a certain other American electric motorcycle manufacturer, Zero's "teases" actually result in real motorcycles you can purchase from actual dealerships as well as road test reviews from multiple publications. I'm eager to see what we'll get. I'm thinking this is the fully-faired version of the SR/F.
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There was an article late last year where a journalist was talking to a Zero exec. He said that Zero would be launching 2 products in 2020 that would gain alot of attention, one in early 2020 and one in April / May. Curious what the latter will be.
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Probably an SR with a full fairing and more power with an SR/F front end. That’s my guess.
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There was an article late last year where a journalist was talking to a Zero exec. He said that Zero would be launching 2 products in 2020 that would gain alot of attention, one in early 2020 and one in April / May. Curious what the latter will be.
The latter might have a different battery architecture is my guess.
Anyone know what the SR/F actually stands for? That might say what the S might stand for.
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What did the SR stand for?
-Crissa
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There was an article late last year where a journalist was talking to a Zero exec. He said that Zero would be launching 2 products in 2020 that would gain alot of attention, one in early 2020 and one in April / May. Curious what the latter will be.
The latter might have a different battery architecture is my guess.
Anyone know what the SR/F actually stands for? That might say what the S might stand for.
I thought S=Sport, SR=Sport+Range, DS=Dual Sport, DSR=Dual Sport+Range, so SR/F=Sport+Range/FUN? Fairing? no, thats not right...I think its FUN.
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Anyone know what the SR/F actually stands for? That might say what the S might stand for.
I assumed it was (as in SR/F) Street-Racer-Fast.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I assumed it was (as in SR/F) Street-Racer-Fast.
Street-Racer-FrickinTimeTheyAddedCruiseControl
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So SR/S = Street-Racer-Slow? :P ???
Maybe SR/First, SR/Second?
I think the R in any of the models stands for the R-spec motor thats on the bike and not necessarily race or racer.
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The R doesn't stand for range because you can get a non-R model in the same capacity (in Europe at least). R is just a common letter for sporty models (more power), presumably originally standing for Race.
I've always wondered what the F stood for, I know people originally assumed it was going to be Faired and were disappointed. I would have guessed the second S in SR/S stood for Sport (so a fully faired sportbike) if it wasn't for the SR/F, because it would instead be something like M for Muscle or H for Hyper-naked.
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My money is on the "S" model having a quarter-fairing. I think Zero is too cheap to develop a full half-fairing, much less something more enveloping.
I always suspected that the "F" was just designating the naked version of the bike with a fancier model to come later - once the demand for the F model had been satisfied. It is just a marketing thing. ;)
It is also interesting that Zero didn't introduce the new model at a big motorcycle show, instead of likely via the internet. But like I said, the company tends to pinch pennies and the internet is a lot cheaper than renting floor space at a big show. :-\
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My money is on the "S" model having a quarter-fairing. I think Zero is too cheap to develop a full half-fairing, much less something more enveloping.
I always suspected that the "F" was just designating the naked version of the bike with a fancier model to come later - once the demand for the F model had been satisfied. It is just a marketing thing. ;)
It is also interesting that Zero didn't introduce the new model at a big motorcycle show, instead of likely via the internet. But like I said, the company tends to pinch pennies and the internet is a lot cheaper than renting floor space at a big show. :-\
I also expect the SR/S to have a half- or quarter-fairing, what you'd want for better weather protection and/or sport-touring. Hopefully it'll also provide 20% more highway range.
I seriously doubt we'll be seeing any completely new platform from Zero in the next 2-3 years (as in, >200V) -- I really don't think they have the resources to develop one.
For a low-volume manufacturer, where it's difficult to amortize platform development, using the same platform to develop more variants makes a lot more sense, just like Zero made the DSR out of the DS.
Ducati survived for many years basically doing exactly this, where every engine type/displacement was used in 3-4 models at least.
As to what the later development this year could be, I could see Zero offering optional battery modules for longer range. The SR/F's GVWR means the frame can take it.
Terry Hershner started a thread on it a few years back, here (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6208.0), which makes for interesting re-reading.
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So SR/S = Street-Racer-Slow? :P ???
Maybe SR/First, SR/Second?
This is what I was going to say by you beat me to it, Shayan!
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Street-Racer-FrickinTimeTheyAddedCruiseControl
The SR/F doesn't have a cruise control? I assumed it did. My Energica has a cruise control that works very well, I use it often.
I guess Zero needs to add a reverse as well. They have some catching up to do on their top of the line bike.
BTW, this thread is the first time I heard about the SR/S. Seems Zero isn't saying much about it.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Well since I just put my deposit down and ordered the SRF, now I’m wondering if I should wait a month and see what the options are :o
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I expect it to be atleast a half fairing too and not a quarter fairing. I would not think Zero at this point would want to do anything that just enhances the aesthetics. So a quarter fairing would not be a good add-on in terms of value. A half fairing should however give a pretty good boost in range. If they can combine this with their traditional battery pack + power tank upgrade (totaling maybe 20kWh), close to 150 miles freeway range should be realistic.
Street-Racer-FrickinTimeTheyAddedCruiseControl
BTW, this thread is the first time I heard about the SR/S. Seems Zero isn't saying much about it.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Like someone mentioned on this thread (and in another previous thread), there was one mention of this back in EICMA 2019 and of course there were those spy shots. Even for the SR/F Zero started off with a teaser. Pretty much how Tesla does it, all on social media and their website with hardly any other marketing.
So SR/S = Street-Racer-Slow? :P ???
Maybe SR/First, SR/Second?
This is what I was going to say by you beat me to it, Shayan!
Haha, these are nothing but guesses. I'm not sure who knows exactly what the naming convention starting with SR/F is :)
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Street-Racer-FrickinTimeTheyAddedCruiseControl
The SR/F doesn't have a cruise control? I assumed it did. My Energica has a cruise control that works very well, I use it often.
I guess Zero needs to add a reverse as well. They have some catching up to do on their top of the line bike.
BTW, this thread is the first time I heard about the SR/S. Seems Zero isn't saying much about it.
-Don- Auburn, CA
the zero sr/f does have a nice cruise control button.
My guess is the S behind the SR is used as a symbol for a twisty road the bike will be fun on. (not like the others aren't fun)
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Street-Racer-FrickinTimeTheyAddedCruiseControl
The SR/F doesn't have a cruise control? I assumed it did.
It does.
I (half jokingly) say that this feature is what tipped the scales and I finally decided to buy a Zero.
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Zero spoke about the SR/F, they originally said the name was for StReet Fighter ;)
So i guess that new one must be a StReet Sucker... :/
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Hopefully something with 1C or faster charging capabilities :)
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Hopefully something with 1C or faster charging capabilities :)
NOT going to happen. Not on the SR/F platform. You're looking for a totally NEW architecture with a different battery and BMS at the very minimum.
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Hopefully something with 1C or faster charging capabilities :)
NOT going to happen. Not on the SR/F platform. You're looking for a totally NEW architecture with a different battery and BMS at the very minimum.
I don't see any reason why Zero cannot have a totally redesigned bike with CCS charging and everything required. I think they realize they will be left behind if they don't keep up with the technology available today. Yeah, it will be a major expense at first, but if they do it correctly, they will sell like hotcakes.
They can still sell their other cheaper bikes with the 116 volt battery at the same time.
I expect there will be some major changes soon, especially since Energica is now claiming to have the longest range electric motorcycle as well as the fastest charging on any Electric motorcycle. Perhaps the two most important things on an electric motorcycle.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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It looks like a sport bike, does it?
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1C CCS charging is possible via two means that Terry has discussed before (one requires pack re-engineering, but the other is a simplified switching power supply, since DC-DC stepdown is producable). Whether or what option is chosen to implement it depends a lot on engineering risks, priorities, and overall cost, I'm sure.
Whether we get CCS charging in excess of 1C probably depends more on Farasis' ability to consider Zero's protections on the battery so that the warranty can be retained. Basically, the safeguards in hardware and firmware have to be proven, which might already be implemented, but someone has to review it at a corporate level or such, because two different companies re-negotiating liability has to be fraught with money concerns.
Mind you, I've heard things from various people (or raised ideas in front of people and watched their noncomfirmatory reactions) and am piecing together a picture I think is plausible.
I for one would not mind just having a single switching power supply that grants me access to 1C charging reliably and without risk to my warranty. I've gotten there with DigiNow equipment, but the component complexity and risks were literally causing me problems, and a 1C rate on a modern machine with 18kWh onboard is really nice (I had 16kWh with my 2016 DSR+PT).
If the SRS fairing yields even a 15% improvement at highway speeds, it will be worth it even before CCS just by making the battery capacity 15% more effective on the road. I won't rehash this, but aerodynamics plus charging are the two curves to make inroads on, and a faired SRS is a big part of that. Basically, if I'm going to make a travel machine, a faired bike is what I'd start with to augment.
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a 6kW chargetank and ~1C CCS charging would work great in a combo with an aerodynamic package. Even a 90-100 miles usable freeway range would be great with 1C charging. This would mean we only charge to ~80% and discharge to ~20% and get about 90-100 miles of freeway range. And that portion of the battery could possibly be charged in ~30 mins with 1C rates.
Would the DC-DC stepdown approach be configurable to any battery capacity 1C rates? Like ZF14.4, ZF13.0 and various combinations of PT's?
This would be a more scalable solution to retrofit existing battery pack as well.
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a 6kW chargetank and ~1C CCS charging would work great in a combo with an aerodynamic package. Even a 90-100 miles usable freeway range would be great with 1C charging. This would mean we only charge to ~80% and discharge to ~20% and get about 90-100 miles of freeway range. And that portion of the battery could possibly be charged in ~30 mins with 1C rates.
Yes, that's the next hilltop in Zero travel - get the range up at highway speeds so that the 20-80% range covers a nice long distance and then charge using 1 plug at 1C for ~35 minutes per stop, without stressing the battery too much so you can repeat it.
I should determine how many miles per day that should cover for an 18kWh total maximum pack (latest bike with power tank). What it should mean (napkin math until I update my simulation) is that one could cover 600 miles in 12 hours, which is enough for most people and would support an Iron Butt certification if the route has no charging station issues.
Would the DC-DC stepdown approach be configurable to any battery capacity 1C rates? Like ZF14.4, ZF13.0 and various combinations of PT's?
This would be a more scalable solution to retrofit existing battery pack as well.
It'd probably cost a good deal of R&D to adapt it between platforms, just as we've seen the Power Tank delayed for the SR/F, because the form factor, cable harness, and control systems are largely different. But we haven't seen the solution yet, so it's anyone's guess.
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Yes, that's the next hilltop in Zero travel - get the range up at highway speeds so that the 20-80% range covers a nice long distance and then charge using 1 plug at 1C for ~35 minutes per stop, without stressing the battery too much so you can repeat it.
I should determine how many miles per day that should cover for an 18kWh total maximum pack (latest bike with power tank). What it should mean (napkin math until I update my simulation) is that one could cover 600 miles in 12 hours, which is enough for most people and would support an Iron Butt certification if the route has no charging station issues.
That would be a great estimate to have! And yes, it should be possible in 11.5-12hrs maybe, assuming: 1. that we start with a full tank. 2. Average speed 70mph.
The aerodynamics will also have lesser stress on the battery due to reduced discharge rate. So i guess repetitive 1C charging should not be too bad. Summer will be the only one that will make things tricky. But it wont be possible without a battery less than 18kWh i guess, because only this can give an ~10kWh usable energy between 20-80%. And with that, 100wH/mile can take us to 100 miles. On my setup i can do a ~80wH/mile when i'm fully tucked in, so to achieve 100wH/mile it should not be too uncomfortable ride position wise.
It'd probably cost a good deal of R&D to adapt it between platforms, just as we've seen the Power Tank delayed for the SR/F, because the form factor, cable harness, and control systems are largely different. But we haven't seen the solution yet, so it's anyone's guess.
Is it because the ZF14.4 on the SR/F is different from the ZF14.4 on the rest of the bikes?
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I don't expect much from this. Yes, some fairings could improve the range a bit and give it sexy looks (some want that), but what Zero needs is a DC charging compatible platform, or it never happened. Zero is lucky Elon is afraid of street bikes, or he'd bury them like he did with Chevy and alikes.
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I repeat: BOTH charging AND aerodynamics improve electric vehicle performance. Both curves matter in increasing the performance envelope. This is not an either/or proposition.
I'm also pretty sure that any attempt by the electric car industry to try to produce an electric motorcycle will run into quality issues and difficulty in getting what they're comfortable with it with only the equipment they can fit on the vehicle. Electric motorcycle engineering is inherently difficult. Cars have all sorts of natural robustness in terms of using mass and volume for weather protection, redundant components, over-engineering, etc.
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I repeat: BOTH charging AND aerodynamics improve electric vehicle performance. Both curves matter in increasing the performance envelope. This is not an either/or proposition.
Fairings don't require a significant engineering effort such as redesign of powertrain, especially when original powertrain is based on off-shelf components.
I'm also pretty sure that any attempt by the electric car industry to try to produce an electric motorcycle will run into quality issues and difficulty in getting what they're comfortable with it with only the equipment they can fit on the vehicle. Electric motorcycle engineering is inherently difficult. Cars have all sorts of natural robustness in terms of using mass and volume for weather protection, redundant components, over-engineering, etc.
Yeah, many industries feel special and immune to newcomers. Passenger cars, semi trucks, pickup trucks, all-terrain vehicles, rockets, satellites. It's nice to feel special and unique, all the way to the end :)
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Every implementation has its hurdles.
The weather and vibration proofing that a Zero needs is so many times more intense than a Tesla has. And that's before the balancing act that a motorized bike is. Just as a Tesla has so many more parts and steps to be built than a Zero. There's a reason only a few companies straddle the automotive-motorcycle divide, and that's before getting into EV technology.
-Crissa
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I'm also pretty sure that any attempt by the electric car industry to try to produce an electric motorcycle will run into quality issues and difficulty in getting what they're comfortable with it with only the equipment they can fit on the vehicle. Electric motorcycle engineering is inherently difficult. Cars have all sorts of natural robustness in terms of using mass and volume for weather protection, redundant components, over-engineering, etc.
BMW is an interesting case study. Back when I first started riding, the car and motorcycle divisions were completely separate and both the cars and bikes were widely considered the best in class in terms of reliability and durability. I rode BMWs almost exclusively since I bought my first one in 1985 up until my ill-fated 2013 C650GT. In the late 20th century/early 21st century they melded the two divisions and the "Car Guys" basically took over both operations.
Now, instead of two separate lines of bikes (the air-cooled, push-rod "boxers" and the water-cooled, inline three and four "K-bikes") you have multiple engine configurations and models spanning multiple markets. The downside is the fact that BMW motorcycles now rate at the BOTTOM of consumer reliability rankings. In a recent "Customer loyalty" ranking amongst automobile manufacturers, Mercedes Benz and Subaru had the most repeat customers (if someone owned one, they'd be far more likely to buy another) and BMW was at the BOTTOM (if you owned one, your next car was PROBABLY going to be another brand).
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Fairings don't require a significant engineering effort such as redesign of powertrain, especially when original powertrain is based on off-shelf components.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but as i understand aerodynamic development is pretty expensive. Wind tunnel testing is what eats up most of the expense. Not to mention a lot of the virtual wind tunnel testing that needs to be done alongside. Based on the number of iterations that needs to happen to get a good design, i guess it will require a good amount of engineering effort.
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but as i understand aerodynamic development is pretty expensive. Wind tunnel testing is what eats up most of the expense. Not to mention a lot of the virtual wind tunnel testing that needs to be done alongside. Based on the number of iterations that needs to happen to get a good design, i guess it will require a good amount of engineering effort.
Any college student can do aerodynamics modeling in software these days. Welcome to the 21st :)
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That's what they WANT you to think. There's a reason Honda spends MILLIONS testing their MotoGP bikes in the a wind tunnel with their riders aboard. Software is still no substitute for actual human feedback.
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That's what they WANT you to think. There's a reason Honda spends MILLIONS testing their MotoGP bikes in the a wind tunnel with their riders aboard. Software is still no substitute for actual human feedback.
I like your logic. There always must a good reason somebody is spending more money on something.
NASA’s original contracts called for Boeing to receive $4.82 billion for Starliner development, while SpaceX was allotted $3.14 billion for Crew Dragon development. But the report said that in 2016, NASA agreed to pay Boeing $287.2 million above the previously agreed-upon fixed price in order to address a perceived 18-month flight gap for four crewed missions, starting with the third flight.
Boeing reported its fourth-quarter results this morning, and they included a $410 million charge specifically earmarked to cover the cost of an additional Commercial Crew mission, should NASA determine that another uncrewed launch is required after the first one didn’t go as planned last December.
"Congratulations to SpaceX and the entire NASA team on this final major flight milestone that we needed to accomplish," NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine said during a postlaunch news conference on Sunday.
Now needless to say Zero is not the caliber of a company that would try to polish aerodynamics to the point of needing a wind tunnel, but clearly I can't be right.
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Computer models are pretty good, especially now, but you still need pretty hefty investment in scanning and design. A small change unreflected in the model can have some impacts.
It's not like there aren't wind tunnels to rent in the Bay Area, tho.
-Crissa
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LOL, I can definitely vouche for that sentiment. We had an '08 BMW M6, which was a fantastic car. When it worked. By the time it had 40k miles on it, it was costing over 10 grand a year to keep it on the road. One time specifically, I had just replaced a throttle actuator, and less than 24 hours later the car blew the slave cylinder and needed a clutch. We'll never own another BMW. Which *sucks* because I really like their bikes. And I was really leaning towards a M4. To be fair, I think that time frame was pretty bad for everyone, not just BMW.
I'm also pretty sure that any attempt by the electric car industry to try to produce an electric motorcycle will run into quality issues and difficulty in getting what they're comfortable with it with only the equipment they can fit on the vehicle. Electric motorcycle engineering is inherently difficult. Cars have all sorts of natural robustness in terms of using mass and volume for weather protection, redundant components, over-engineering, etc.
BMW is an interesting case study. Back when I first started riding, the car and motorcycle divisions were completely separate and both the cars and bikes were widely considered the best in class in terms of reliability and durability. I rode BMWs almost exclusively since I bought my first one in 1985 up until my ill-fated 2013 C650GT. In the late 20th century/early 21st century they melded the two divisions and the "Car Guys" basically took over both operations.
Now, instead of two separate lines of bikes (the air-cooled, push-rod "boxers" and the water-cooled, inline three and four "K-bikes") you have multiple engine configurations and models spanning multiple markets. The downside is the fact that BMW motorcycles now rate at the BOTTOM of consumer reliability rankings. In a recent "Customer loyalty" ranking amongst automobile manufacturers, Mercedes Benz and Subaru had the most repeat customers (if someone owned one, they'd be far more likely to buy another) and BMW was at the BOTTOM (if you owned one, your next car was PROBABLY going to be another brand).
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I just don't see Zero making any significant changes to the SR/F design anytime soon. They put too much time and effort into the bike to do anything but make minor updates - like better waterproofing. I still say that the "S" version will just be a styling exercise and have more sporty plastics, like a nose fairing and bold new graphics.
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Second bike at the end of 2020:
Come on FXR! :)
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SR/X probably then
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I concur that computer modeling is really good these days and less expensive than actual wind tunnel testing. But i think everyone has to do some form of wind tunnel testing to get some sort of real world data (or do actual real world testing with cross winds, turbulence created by vehicles ahead etc). It would be quite dangerous to have an aerodynamically unstable bike. On the other hand obviously, Zero does not have all the money in the world to put into such investments.
Looking at the highway range claims from Lightning, i'm sure a decent chunk of that is because it is slippery in the wind. So they must've done some amount of aero development. it would also help to have a good aero to aid cooling of different components as well.
Oh and as mentioned by a Zero rep, these two models are supposed to catch a lot of attention. If its not a whole lot of improvement, it would'nt catch any attention :)
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Second bike at the end of 2020:
Come on FXR! :)
Not gonna happen with the 7.2 battery. It'd be cool to see a more off road focused DS(R) using parts from the FX like suspension and wheels. Not that I'd ever get one as it'd be too tall for me.
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Regarding the SR/S I'm going for sort of a sports-tourer with fairing which covers the entire battery at least.
Motor etc. like the SR/F.
Some birds calling it from the rooftops ...
The bird confirmed, what I was told at the EICMA last year.
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Regarding the SR/S I'm going for sort of a sports-tourer with fairing which covers the entire battery at least.
Motor etc. like the SR/F.
Some birds calling it from the rooftops ...
The bird confirmed, what I was told at the EICMA last year.
I certainly hope so... guess we'll see in 3 weeks.
Next step for zero, which should be a lot less work than completely redoing the drivetrain for high-voltage CCS DC support, is to fix the charging.
This is the other part of the range solution, after improving aerodynamics and gradual improvement of battery capacity.
For about half the market (most of Europe), 3-phase 22kW public AC chargers are readily available.
The setup on the bike should be capable of supporting 15-18kW (in order not to exceed 1C, if that's still the significant limitation(*)) without using up the tank space, so that's still available for storage or extra battery.
This doesn't necessarily have to be on the base SR/S -- a factory option would work fine, but on a full day's sport-touring, being able to cut charge times by a third would be very useful.
(*) I expect it might be, among other reasons, due to the lack of active cooling.
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LOL. There's no way they can fit 22kW of AC charging into the bike. Especially without using the tank space. Look at all the space they need just to get to 12kW. It's not like the chargers aren't close to 95% efficient already.
My money is on higher rate CCS charging. Especially if they can find a high power dcdc converter. Get Farasis to agree to raise the 1C limit and we might see ~20kW there.
I'll bet they'll release what is essentially a fully faired SR/F. Everything else may not launch at the same time, but might get announced.
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Diginow managed to fit nearly 10kW into the space of the stock SDS charger (well, a tiny bit larger), and that's with 3 separate units. Zero themselves should be able to do better, at least better than they do at the moment.
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Diginow managed to fit nearly 10kW into the space of the stock SDS charger (well, a tiny bit larger), and that's with 3 separate units. Zero themselves should be able to do better, at least better than they do at the moment.
Yeah, and that's a fool's errand. Why carry the ballast around, when you can reorganize the battery cells to increase voltage and use stationary DC charging stations ? Oh yeah, that requires engineering, and engineering requires engineers... good engineers are expensive, but the electric motorcycle market is inherently small and non-lucrative. So there you have it, catch 22.
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Diginow managed to fit nearly 10kW into the space of the stock SDS charger (well, a tiny bit larger), and that's with 3 separate units. Zero themselves should be able to do better, at least better than they do at the moment.
Yeah, and that's a fool's errand. Why carry the ballast around, when you can reorganize the battery cells to increase voltage and use stationary DC charging stations ? Oh yeah, that requires engineering, and engineering requires engineers... good engineers are expensive, but the electric motorcycle market is inherently small and non-lucrative. So there you have it, catch 22.
The catch-22 is CCS still is sparse and mostly in coastal states along or near interstates. Fine for cars, but not adequate for motorcycles, not really in areas motorcycles ride. IMO L2 is where it's at and bikes should be optimized for L2 charging. There are few L3's in my region and where they are located, I don't ride.
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CCS compatibility means all those J-stations work plus the CCS stations. It's not 'or', it's 'and'.
-Crissa
(although it does mean it requires a beefier J-station compatible on-board charger to be compatible with the higher-voltage CCS-compatible battery. If we could get to the point where CCS was super-common, the bike could shed weight and only DC charge, but that's not a current standard as there's no home CCS chargers at the moment.)
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The catch-22 is CCS still is sparse and mostly in coastal states along or near interstates. Fine for cars, but not adequate for motorcycles, not really in areas motorcycles ride. IMO L2 is where it's at and bikes should be optimized for L2 charging. There are few L3's in my region and where they are located, I don't ride.
Not sure why this is difficult to understand... if you're charging from AC power source, that means you're carrying around your charger(s). If you approach or exceed 1C of your battery pack on 14kW and above, that is quite a beefy AC-DC system that adds bulk and weight to the motorcycle which has neither to spare. ChaDemo is another DC standard, and would also work if the battery voltage is increased.
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I don't think it's difficult to understand, it's just that CCS chargers are not currently a reliable network everywhere a bike would want to charge yet.
-Crissa
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I don't think it's difficult to understand, it's just that CCS chargers are not currently a reliable network everywhere a bike would want to charge yet.
-Crissa
You again ignored ChaDemo, but either way... Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.
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You did raise the point of dropping the "ballast", I assume that means going DC and not having a built in charger. Even if you do keep the charger DC isn't wide spread which means you're still going to want a decent AC charger, DC doesn't negate that need (yet).
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DC isn't wide spread
Here is a visual aid to my point above : https://www.tesla.com/findus?bounds=54.35650839634679%2C-57.398826562500005%2C21.312328391805742%2C-141.7738265625&zoom=5&filters=supercharger
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/
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Perhaps wide spread was the wrong term to use, dukecola's description of being sparse would be a better fit.
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Perhaps wide spread was the wrong term to use, dukecola's description of being sparse would be a better fit.
Cool. Well, either way my take on this is irrelevant. Zero is going to do whatever they're going to do, without consulting with their customers, or without telling their customers about their plans. Unlike Tesla.
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I don't think it's difficult to understand, it's just that CCS chargers are not currently a reliable network everywhere a bike would want to charge yet.
-Crissa
You again ignored ChaDemo, but either way... Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.
CHAdeMO is dying outside Japan. Only two vehicle models sold in North America and three in Europe support it, and one of them (the Mitsu Outlander PHEV) doesn't really need DC charging -- it has an ICE and a fairly small battery. Also, the Leaf isn't selling very well; even Japanese carmakers are dropping support outside Japan: Honda is using CCS both in Europe (on the e) as well as in North America (Clarity BEV). Mazda will also not be using CHAdeMO, and the upcoming Lexus BEV (Toyota's first outside China) is also expected to use CCS.
While I expect existing CHAdeMO chargers to be maintained for now, there are going to be very few new ones going forward -- it doesn't make economic sense. In a recent interview (https://insideevs.com/news/389891/exclusive-interview-electrify-america-problems-solutions/) with Electrify America execs they said they don't expect to change their policy of a single CHAdeMO charger per site. Ionity in Europe isn't even doing that.
Were I now shopping for a BEV car in either region, CHAdeMO cars would be eliminated on that basis alone.
Back to bikes:
I don't see DC chargers getting very cheap for a long time -- not until/unless storage batteries become very cheap or utility demand charges become very low (not really likely even on a grid mostly based on renewables -- someone has to pay for the grid itself). As a result, I don't see them becoming common where there isn't a lot of through traffic that needs the distance (e.g., scenic backroads). So once bikes with DC charging it'll become easier to get to the Good RoadsTM, but not much easier to recharge along them.
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You again ignored ChaDemo, but either way... Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.
https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/
I didn't ignore it, no one mentioned it. It's a different standard with its own problems.
You might as well have asked why don't they try for Supercharger compatibility. (Which I guess you did in a later post? It was unclear.) Although, I can't find any public caveats, but it's probably that any company that does so needs to also make their stuff open-source. And they would have to be second-class Supercharger citizens, like owning a lower tier Android phone. That might be worth it for such a robust network, tho.
-Crissa
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You again ignored ChaDemo, but either way... Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.
https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/
I didn't ignore it, no one mentioned it. It's a different standard with its own problems.
You might as well have asked why don't they try for Supercharger compatibility. Although, I can't find any public caveats, but it's probably that any company that does so needs to also make their stuff open-source. And they would have to be second-class Supercharger citizens, like owning a lower tier Android phone.
-Crissa
Right now, AFAIK, the other significant issue with potentially using Superchargers by non-Tesla vehicles is that there's no provision for opportunistic billing on the spot via credit card, or any other billing at all except automatically identifying the car to Tesla's servers and having a pre-existing billing relationship with Tesla. Tesla would need to make some big changes in their system architecture and charger hardware to support that.
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You again ignored ChaDemo, but either way... Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.
https://chargedevs.com/features/zero-motorcycles-was-forced-to-abandon-a-dc-fast-charging-option-in-2013-better-interoperability-testing-is-needed/
I didn't ignore it, no one mentioned it. It's a different standard with its own problems.
You might as well have asked why don't they try for Supercharger compatibility. Although, I can't find any public caveats, but it's probably that any company that does so needs to also make their stuff open-source. And they would have to be second-class Supercharger citizens, like owning a lower tier Android phone.
-Crissa
Ah, you're just not paying attention. My whole premise was around bumping up pack voltage. Chademo caused issues for Zero due to 100v being not lucrative for manufacturers of chargers to support, as most other vehicles on the road were quite a bit higher. If Zero matches voltages to such of say Leaf and Bolt, then Chademo will work just fine.
At least wavelet above is more serious with his comment :)
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My whole premise was around bumping up pack voltage. Chademo caused issues for Zero due to 100v being not lucrative for manufacturers of chargers to support, as most other vehicles on the road were quite a bit higher. If Zero matches voltages to such of say Leaf and Bolt, then Chademo will work just fine.
I don't think the issue was "not lucrative" per se, but rather that there were so few e-motorcycles around, that not only did CHAdeMO charger vendors not do any testing with them, but some weren't even aware that 100V BEVs existed. Unlike CCS, which does require 200V min (at least the current standard, IIRC), the CHAdeMO specs supports voltage down to 50V (not sure but I believe that's mandatory). Yes, that means those chargers were not spec-compliant, but who cares what a few riders think?
There were some posts on EMF by Aaron from Zero a few years back, explaining that this is why Zero abandoned their CHAdeMO accessory charger: They discovered that compatibility varied so wildly, it would make for a bad customer experience. Eventually their only customers which bought the charger were bike fleets that were also willing to install their own known-compatible CHAdeMO charger.
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I don't think the issue was "not lucrative" per se
The problem is quite simple. If you make a variable power supply that supports 50-800V, it will be more complex and more expensive than a power supply that supports 200-800V. So why make more complicated and more expensive piece of equipment that is not really warranted by the market ?
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I don't think the issue was "not lucrative" per se
The problem is quite simple. If you make a variable power supply that supports 50-800V, it will be more complex and more expensive than a power supply that supports 200-800V. So why make more complicated and more expensive piece of equipment that is not really warranted by the market ?
That's really a legal/compliance issue. If a charger couldn't be imported or legally installed without a certificate of spec compliance from a certified test lab, they'd have to.
I'd personally prefer that high-voltage equipment be required to undergo independent certification.
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Non-spec chargers should have never been installed. They could have caused fires or destroyed equipment.
Tesla is going to have to support at-charger payments in California next year. I don't know why, but our state mandated credit card machines. VISA must have a powerful lobby. But it may make some of these networks more reliable.
-Crissa
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Non-spec chargers should have never been installed. They could have caused fires or destroyed equipment.
Fully agreed.
Tesla is going to have to support at-charger payments in California next year. I don't know why, but our state mandated credit card machines. VISA must have a powerful lobby. But it may make some of these networks more reliable.
Not sure it's the CC lobby.
I see many complaints in EV forums about the large variety of networks that require each its own membership & card and/or smartphone app (not just DC charging -- all types); there's a perception this makes charging much too burdensome to the point it's hindering EV adoption. After all, every publicly-accessible gas station (well, every one I've ever been to) allows opportunistic payment via CC, whatever other methods they support.
The UK (https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-7248283/Government-calls-electric-car-public-chargepoints-accept-debit-credit-card-payments.html) already has such rules in process, and IIRC so do several other countries.
I suspect that the California law you mention will also require accepting one-off payments without any membership (although possibly at a higher price).
What is surprising to me is that this law applies to a private network such as Tesla's, rather than only to public networks. If this is because they wanted no exceptions, what are they going to do about completely private destination chargers (regardless of whether EV brand-specific or not) like at hotels, which don't charge money for charging, but are reserved for guest use only?
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I don't believe it applies to older chargers (so pre-existing chargers can stay the way they are, until the site is upgraded). And it doesn't apply to chargers that don't have direct fees.
So a charger that comes with parking or a room doesn't need a payment system. No per-minute, per-kilowatt payment, no system needed. So destination and free chargers are fine.
-Crissa
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Diginow managed to fit nearly 10kW into the space of the stock SDS charger (well, a tiny bit larger), and that's with 3 separate units. Zero themselves should be able to do better, at least better than they do at the moment.
I think it should be made clear that the units that DigiNow used for v2 and onwards are good units but were literally rejects from Zero R&D. They couldn't make the units work within regulations.
Zero aren't idiots, and DigiNow aren't geniuses.
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Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.
This is a laughable suggestion. So, either name a company that has accomplished this, or explain why Tesla would even bother negotiating a deal with Zero.
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Diginow managed to fit nearly 10kW into the space of the stock SDS charger (well, a tiny bit larger), and that's with 3 separate units. Zero themselves should be able to do better, at least better than they do at the moment.
I think it should be made clear that the units that DigiNow used for v2 and onwards are good units but were literally rejects from Zero R&D. They couldn't make the units work within regulations.
Zero aren't idiots, and DigiNow aren't geniuses.
Interesting, never knew that. Do you know why Zero gave up on them, or do you mean Zero couldn't make them work (I know Diginow had problems with them)? In what way were they outside of regulations? It doesn't seem like something that should be too hard to get working well, at least just a single unit which would have been better than what we have now.
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Diginow managed to fit nearly 10kW into the space of the stock SDS charger (well, a tiny bit larger), and that's with 3 separate units. Zero themselves should be able to do better, at least better than they do at the moment.
I think it should be made clear that the units that DigiNow used for v2 and onwards are good units but were literally rejects from Zero R&D. They couldn't make the units work within regulations.
Zero aren't idiots, and DigiNow aren't geniuses.
Interesting, never knew that. Do you know why Zero gave up on them, or do you mean Zero couldn't make them work (I know Diginow had problems with them)? In what way were they outside of regulations? It doesn't seem like something that should be too hard to get working well, at least just a single unit which would have been better than what we have now.
I didn't know it, either, until I got a claim from an engineer at Zero and then confirmed it elsewhere to avoid gossip contamination. I'm actually sanitizing the claim slightly.
I don't want to get into specifics, because it's hearsay and I don't want to deal with it or make it even slightly obvious who I'm sourcing. It could conceivably be about EMC regulations, thermal management, durability, or a subtle combination thereof.
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It's really interesting to see how opinion flows on this and the Facebook group. Diginow essentially went out of business, and claimed that Zero's engineering was at least partially to blame. And everybody seemed to believe them. Zero never comments publicly, so they almost lose by default. I remain skeptical that the fault did not lie in a lack of engineering knowledge on Diginow's side.
I agree with Brian, Zero aren't idiots. They try to do the best with the limitations present to them. I know EMC regulations are very very hard to solve without significant hardware changes, and I doubt Diginow has to do them as an accessory kit supplier, so I bet it's that. And since Diginow just buys off the shelf chargers with their own custom controller and harnessing, it's not like they can do hardware changes to improve it. Zero has to meet every kind of American and European vehicle regulation to sell, and I know that's a giant pain in the butt.
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Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.
This is a laughable suggestion. So, either name a company that has accomplished this, or explain why Tesla would even bother negotiating a deal with Zero.
I even linked an article that explains the point - Elon was asked if he would allow third party access to Superchargers, he said he would.
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Zero can talk to Elon, and get access to Tesla network. Problem solved.
This is a laughable suggestion. So, either name a company that has accomplished this, or explain why Tesla would even bother negotiating a deal with Zero.
I even linked an article that explains the point - Elon was asked if he would allow third party access to Superchargers, he said he would.
It doesn’t matter until it actually happens. Plenty of company heads make claims in public for image promotion that they don’t intend to back up or are effectively unimplementable. It serves him to say that, and it costs him nothing if no one succeeds in engaging his company on that, because the discussions would happen under NDA.
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Forum reputation is not always what the target deserves.
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It doesn’t matter until it actually happens. Plenty of company heads make claims in public for image promotion that they don’t intend to back up or are effectively unimplementable. It serves him to say that, and it costs him nothing if no one succeeds in engaging his company on that, because the discussions would happen under NDA.
Well, I know Elon way better than I know you, so this is a no brainer :)
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It doesn’t matter until it actually happens. Plenty of company heads make claims in public for image promotion that they don’t intend to back up or are effectively unimplementable. It serves him to say that, and it costs him nothing if no one succeeds in engaging his company on that, because the discussions would happen under NDA.
Well, I know Elon way better than I know you, so this is a no brainer :)
I don’t care if you’re his mother. His words are worthless without implementation, and the cost to him to make empty promises is demonstrably nil.
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We don't know what limitations on the Superchargers present themselves to third-party vehicles since no one has come forward with why they haven't taken the deal.
Tesla has said their are limitations - some of them being software compatibility and others being required to open some of the third party's patents. Which are generally no goes, but understandable requirements.
If I were Zero I would always have on a target board 'what would be required for X system' bikes, so they can check the theoretical price Every year or so as technology changes. Napkin math moves around, and being ready to pounce is part of being agile. You don't want your good thing to lock you from seeking the next thing before it's too late.
-Crissa
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We don't know what limitations on the Superchargers present themselves to third-party vehicles since no one has come forward with why they haven't taken the deal.
Tesla has said their are limitations - some of them being software compatibility and others being required to open some of the third party's patents. Which are generally no goes, but understandable requirements.
Some of the issues are pretty clear.
There are a lot of technical & business issues to resolve before that could be possible. There have been several EV startups that have approached Tesla about this.
For one, Tesla SCs would need to be retrofitted physically, or the "foreign" EVs, to let the SCs identify them. Currently, from what I've read, that information (VIN) isn't passed through the car-charger interface, but through the cellular connection from a Tesla to Tesla's servers. I.e., A non-connected Tesla can't currently charge at a SC, IIUC.
AFAIK, no quick-charging protocol allows for transferring information from car to charger beyond the directly charging related stuff like max charge rate & SoC. The non-Tesla DC chargers use RFID or other similar methods to identify the driver/car. I doubt the California law you mentioned will require vehicle IDing .
A potentially usage/business thorny issue is that of precedence: Will Teslas be given priority? And to what extent? If so, will a new Tesla coming into the station preempt an already-waiting non-Tesla? This is particularly an issue because Teslas charge far faster (2X+) than most other EVs, both peak and average rates. Will the session length for a non-Tesla be limited, or maybe even the session terminated if a Tesla comes in?
Personally I think it makes sense for all networks to allow reserving charging timeslots ahead of time (maybe 50% of the available slots,leaving the remainder for "walk-ins") to avoid long waits. I think this will eventually have to happen, once a more significant % of car on the roads are EVs.
If this happens, the issues with 3d-party charging become more complex.
And all the above gets more complex with motorcycles than only charge at 25kW at best.
If I were Zero I would always have on a target board 'what would be required for X system' bikes, so they can check the theoretical price Every year or so as technology changes. Napkin math moves around, and being ready to pounce is part of being agile. You don't want your good thing to lock you from seeking the next thing before it's too late.
From everything I hear about Zero, they still operate far too close to startup mode for that to work; I've worked at or with multiple companies Zero's size or less, and while a many did intend to do this, it never survived the next company crisis (i.e., a couple of months).
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Some of the issues are pretty clear.
...There's talking out of your hat and there's talking out of your hat.
For one, Tesla SCs would need to be retrofitted physically,
...Why? ID isn't a reason.
(VIN) isn't passed through the car-charger interface, but through the cellular connection
...Like a celphone app or the SR/F does?
AFAIK, no quick-charging protocol allows for transferring information from car to charger
CCS does.
I doubt the California law you mentioned will require vehicle IDing
It doesn't mention it at all, which seems irrelevant? We don't know what restrictions are on Tesla's deal, since no one has come out and said. Tesla currently has no method of pre-emption between heir tiers of customers currently, despite having several tiers. The point was that they'll have to start modifying their charging protocol anyhow.
....
From everything I hear about Zero, they still operate far too close to startup mode for that to work;
That is literally something a startup can do that a normal publicity listed company cannot. Yes, lots of companies fail to do it. It's not easy!
Anyhow, my neighbor that's working for Zero is pulling ten hour shifts more days of the week this quarter than last, he was doing four-ten or less, now he seems to be doing more. I hope that's a good sign 'cause it doesn't seem healthy (for him) to me ^-^
-Crissa
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Last night I heard on the news that Tesla is closing in on $1,000 a share stock price. As a company they are now more valuable than the other three major US vehicle brands combined. Anyone owning their stock has made a lot of money recently by investing in Tesla. If I recall correctly, it was under $400 a share just a few months ago. I hope Crissa's neighbor can hang in there. Working 10 hours a day for days on end might be a good deal for the company, but it has got to be tough on the employees.
Frankly, I am amazed at Tesla's success and I hope the EV market can keep on supporting them at that level. But will the EV market reach a saturation point and run up against the vehicle owners who either can't afford or don't want an EV for whatever reason?
I can see Tesla not wanting to share their Super Chargers with other brands, what with the locations, numbers and performance of those chargers likely being a big selling point for Tesla. The number of their chargers need to keep ahead of their production curve otherwise their sales might be impacted if the word gets around that there are starting to be traffic jams around SC facilities.
Finally, I have heard more than once that Eon Musk has got it in for motorcycles for some reason and likely would not want to cooperate with any motorcycle manufacturer to use their facilities or branded products.
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Elon was injured in a motorcycle accident as a youth, hence his antipathy towards them. The Model 3 is apparently the biggest selling electric vehicle in the WORLD, so he can pretty much do whatever he wants at this point.
All EV Charging stations "communicate" with the vehicle before initiating a charge. I found this video VERY educational:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZBsOud4O9Q
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If TSLA hits $1000, the stock market has gone crazy.
https://www.google.com/search?q=tsla (move the dial to '6m' for six months)
Their share price is too high right now, and that's an enviable position to be in.
-Crissa
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...aaaand it's tanked again.
Cas :)
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All EV Charging stations "communicate" with the vehicle before initiating a charge. I found this video VERY educational:
In that video, he says there is no L3 charging, but the term is widely accepted and we all know what it is. It's from a REAL charger! IOW, DC direct to the battery.
Yet he calls an AC supply, such as a J-1772 as a charger. How is that a "charger" to any more of a degree than a 120 VAC outlet in our homes? A J-1772 is simply another AC supply. The ONLY charger involved then is the one in the vehicle.
While his other info is good, he should not be complaining about what we consider L3 chargers. At least those are chargers, unlike a J-1772 which is simply an AC supply for a charger.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Måns on the FB page posted a screen grab from the teaser video, along with the idea that it looks like a SR/F with a fairing.
Here is my attempt at a screen grab.
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Spouse says she needs to see the front to see if it was the mystery Zero she saw at night a few weeks ago in Santa Cruz.
It had a small, black fairing and soft white/blue lights along the edge of the cowling (like the color of a Zero screen)
-Crissa
That's the problem with the pedantism, Don. There's two levels of DC charging and two levels of AC charging but as things stand, there are basically three levels of 'chargers': One is an uncontrolled AC outlet, another is a supply that doesn't control the vehicle but advises, and then another that the supply does the logical switching.
Calling Level 2 DC charging a Level 3 charger is just not as much a misnomer as they want it to be. It is the third level of charging, even if it's only the second of DC.
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I'll add my 2 cents to the discussion. ;D
Zero needs to clarify their naming conventions. As far as I can tell it is like this: S (Street), SR (Street Racing), FX (Super Moto), FXS (Stealthy Super Moto), DS (Dual Sport), DSR (Dual Sport Racing), FX (Motocross). SR/F (Street Racing/Moto??) SR/S (Street Racing/Stealth).
I am going to guess SR/S is a lighter, cheaper, SR/F, possibly with a smaller battery pack. But I'm probably wrong. :)
As for fairing. Zero does not have to spend much to design a fairing. They are not in racing, so it does not have to have maximum efficiency.
Most of their design features are off-the-shelf. In any business it is common to have the OEM manufacturer design new stuff, like a motor, or new shape battery-pack, against a contract to purchase certain amount of items.
AC or DC charging are very similar, neither has a clear advantage just by being AC or DC. There are other factors in play.
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SFX is the supermoto, the FX is the base X. Their battery system they call Z-Force or ZF.
But yes, their naming convention leaves much to be desired.
-Crissa
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Sticking to the topic, I took a couple of screenshots and edited them on Lightroom.
Does it looks like the front tire is 110 and/or 160 on the rear? Somehow it does not seem to look as big as the SR/F. Maybe it is a smaller (less powerful) version of the SR/F with a fairing and a sport bike like position.
You guys see anything else?
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I wonder if Zero employees have the time to follow (and enjoy) all the guessing about their SR/S. Must be fun ... :P
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Maybe they see what people are saying, then have a " shill " put in something to move discussion in the direction they choose
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-snip- There's two levels of DC charging and two levels of AC charging but as things stand, there are basically three levels of 'chargers': One is an uncontrolled AC outlet, another is a supply that doesn't control the vehicle but advises, and then another that the supply does the logical switching.
-snip-
No.. There's 4 levels of charging where DC charging is only one of them..
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimage.slidesharecdn.com%2F4b29cbc0-49cc-483c-bdc3-f7df53cfd8e3-161127042717%2F95%2Fcommunication-between-pev-and-evse-12-638.jpg%3Fcb%3D1480220980&f=1&nofb=1)
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That's a great and yet another pedantic answer using yet another numbering system completely different.
Yeesh.
-Crissa
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Actually, it's the standard.. so.. no..
The 4 modes of charging is defined in the rules and regulations of electrical installations (go figure..)
(https://image.slidesharecdn.com/ev-chargingstandardsmay2016-160620063431/95/ev-charging-standards-6-638.jpg?cb=1466404532)
(https://image.slidesharecdn.com/ev-chargingstandardsmay2016-160620063431/95/ev-charging-standards-9-638.jpg?cb=1466404532)
(https://image.slidesharecdn.com/ev-chargingstandardsmay2016-160620063431/95/ev-charging-standards-8-638.jpg?cb=1466404532)
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Modes. Yet another pedantism, different from the standard mentioned in the video.
Technical jargon using ordinals in different ways (their level 2 is kinda pointless)
-Crissa
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looks like it has LED blinkers now also.
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Modes. Yet another pedantism, different from the standard mentioned in the video.
Technical jargon using ordinals in different ways (their level 2 is kinda pointless)
-Crissa
It gets even worse because of the "Type 1" / "Type 2" plug designations, which also confuse people (yet another use of ordinals in a related context).
I think I've yet to see any discussion of charging that goes on for any length without mutual misunderstandings. And then there are the non-numerical designations like fast / rapid / quick which are also meaningless -- I've seen editorializing about people who referred to DC 50kW charging as "quick" rather than "rapid".
Personally, I wish all these attempts to dumb down the terms would stop. There's no reason not to simply explicitly name the charger with "AC" or "DC" and its max wattage in numbers. That's enough to understand the driver/rider-relevant issues of charge time, range & cost.
That's something a 6th-grader can understand, and a person incapable of understanding it after a reasonable explanation maybe shouldn't be riding/driving anyway.
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Don't mind agreeing with you on that one, as these arbitrary (and albeit similiar) was to label the various ways to do this simply ends up making it confusing for a lot of people.
I _think_ the idea was to make it "as easy" as filling gasoline..
Unfortunately, the variety of how electrical charging works makes it a lot more complex..
Still.. For most people it could be boiled down to a Wh value paired with the size of charge wanted.
Ie, if the cars charge display (because let's face it, that is the primary market for those that don't want to learn the intricacies) tells you [Charge needed: 24.4 kWh], [Charger speed: 3 kW], [Estimated time to 100%: -time calculated including top off/balancing] or [Estimated time to -set percentage value-: -time calculated]
Still easy to understand for those that don't want to learn or calculate themselves, yet much more understandable for those of us that understands kW/kWh relations..
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Personally, I think that every gasoline octane pump nozzle should have a different design and fit into a unique fuel tank opening on your car. ::)
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VHS vs Betamax, anyone? HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray? LaserDisc vs DVD?
Always best to wait till there are standards before buying something expensive that becomes obsolete.
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Personally, I think that every gasoline octane pump nozzle should have a different design and fit into a unique fuel tank opening on your car. ::)
And motorcycles. My HD and Moto-Guzzi require the highest octane available. My other ICE bikes and all my cages only require 87. By habit, I have put in 87 octane in my Harley and MG countless times, including when I came back from Livermore on my MG. It has a full 8.5 gallon tank of 87 when I should be using above 90. But I have not noticed any issues when I use too low of octane. But it's always by habit as I mean to use whatever the owner's manuals recommend.
If the wrong nozzle would not fit, it would solve this problem. OTOH, I have seen gas stations that were out of only one type of gas, forcing me to use another.
-Don- Reno, NV
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VHS vs Betamax, anyone? HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray? LaserDisc vs DVD?
Always best to wait till there are standards before buying something expensive that becomes obsolete.
The problem here is that I will most likely be dead by the time they have a standard for DC fast charging.
But at least they do have the J1772 standard. Is there any EV made these days that cannot use J1772 in one way or another? I have used it on all four of my EVs.
-Don- Reno, NV
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VHS vs Betamax, anyone? HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray? LaserDisc vs DVD?
Always best to wait till there are standards before buying something expensive that becomes obsolete.
The problem here is that I will most likely be dead by the time they have a standard for DC fast charging.
But at least they do have the J1772 standard. Is there any EV made these days that cannot use J1772 in one way or another? I have used it on all four of my EVs.
-Don- Reno, NV
Hence the reason I'm in no hurry to buy a bike with DCFC. It would appear that CCS is rapidly becoming the standard, at least here in the US. But my S charges up fast enough with the 6kW charge tank for now, and I have ICE bikes for taking longer trips when time is of the essence. The XMAX gets me over 70 mpg, too. If it weren't for the fairly maintenance intensive CVT, it would almost be as cheap to operate as the Zero. At less than half the price out of the dealership, it did get a good head start, though.
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Faired bike confirmed
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8jTIb_Hks8/
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Hence the reason I'm in no hurry to buy a bike with DCFC. It would appear that CCS is rapidly becoming the standard, at least here in the US. But my S charges up fast enough with the 6kW charge tank for now, and I have ICE bikes for taking longer trips when time is of the essence. The XMAX gets me over 70 mpg, too. If it weren't for the fairly maintenance intensive CVT, it would almost be as cheap to operate as the Zero. At less than half the price out of the dealership, it did get a good head start, though.
All the chargers they have been installing at many of the Wal*Marts are CCS. What surprises me that so few of the Wal*Marts have J1772 which all EVs can use, even Tesla. The only Wal*Mart where I have seen J-1772 was in Oak Grove, CA.
With CCS in the EV, you can always use J1772 charging stations, of course. Perhaps that is why it is so common. CCS is everywhere from Reno west and a few places east. But eastern NV doesn't have much of anything. Even gas stations are rare out there.
-Don-
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What did the SR stand for?
-Crissa
R suffixes traditionally are for higher performance ("race"?) versions. S and DS are Streetfighter and Dual Sport, I think.
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Here it is somehow:
Russians couldn't wait, and fetched the promo video out of HQ :)
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Here it is somehow:
Russians couldn't wait, and fetched the promo video out of HQ :)
Might be fake, but then I don't see the point -- this is very much what many of us thinking. Same "75-10" motor with same peak power/torque specs as the SR/F; same capacity pack.
While the video calls the bike a sportbike, it also stresses pillion space and non-aggressive riding position, which means it's conceived as a sport-tourer.
The big Q's are the range at highway speed & "combined" -- I guess we'll find out in 10 days.
I wonder if the video will be taken down when Zero find out...
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Here it is somehow:
Russians couldn't wait, and fetched the promo video out of HQ :)
Might be fake, but then I don't see the point -- this is very much what many of us thinking. Same "75-10" motor with same peak power/torque specs as the SR/F; same capacity pack.
While the video calls the bike a sportbike, it also stresses pillion space and non-aggressive riding position, which means it's conceived as a sport-tourer.
The big Q's are the range at highway speed & "combined" -- I guess we'll find out in 10 days.
I wonder if the video will be taken down when Zero find out...
Just did some quick digging on the Zero website and landed here: https://srs.zeromotorcycles.com/videos/Zero_3.mp4
So looks like the bike isnt fake fore sure. Dont think the video is fake either. I guess it would be taken down tomorrow or so when its morning here in CA.
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I'm totally sure the video shows the real SR/S as it looks exactly the way the Zero representative from the European headquarter (Amsterdam) told me in November at the EICMA.
Big question is the price and the availability. A Swiss Zero dealer mentioned fall.
Another interesting question might be, if an SR/F can be 'upgraded' to an SR/S.
May be they are better prepared for a big demand than they were for the SR/F. Or the SR/S leads to an even higher demand ... who knows.
Looking at Zeros employment site with its open positions I'd say that this shows the signs of a truly growing company. However, this isn't my turf; I'm a complete laymen regarding production and business development.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/company/employment
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I'm totally sure the video shows the real SR/S as it looks exactly the way the Zero representative from the European headquarter (Amsterdam) told me in November at the EICMA.
So it's most likely real, as expected. I expect this will give Zero a sales boost, depending on range& price. I also hope they've also been thinking about hard luggage options -- IIUC, there's no off-the-shelf hard luggage solution for the SR/F yet, and the SR/S certainly needs one for long trips.
Soft luggage is always an option, but not the same thing.
Big question is the price and the availability. A Swiss Zero dealer mentioned fall.
Next Fall? 8-9 months from now? Seems a bit too far away to announce now. I suspect there might be lots of potential customers who would delay purchases & wait, if so.
I'd expect 2-4 months, in time for the Spring riding season. After all, their standard annual time to announce model changes is towards the end of the calendar year, but they didn't do it this time.
Also, presumably, the frame & drivetrain & charging aren't changed from the SR/F at all, likely ditto suspension & brakes, so it's not a huge project in itself, although it would have needed lots of testing, simulations, wind tunnel work etc. (I hope there'll be a 15%+ highway range improvement from the unfaired bike, maybe even 20%).
I'd expect the charger & Power Tank situation to be the same as with the SR/F Premium.
Another interesting question might be, if an SR/F can be 'upgraded' to an SR/S.
I'd expect technically yes, but probably not cost-effective, and not supported by Zero (as in, they're not going to sell the fairing and other needed parts separately).
May be they are better prepared for a big demand than they were for the SR/F. Or the SR/S leads to an even higher demand ... who knows.
Depending on the actual range & price, this may finally open up the non-commuter market.
I think Zero knows they have a problem w.r.t. Energica at present (except for fleet sales), in terms of charging & range, so it'll be interesting to see how they approach selling the SR/S .
Looking at Zeros employment site with its open positions I'd say that this shows the signs of a truly growing company. However, this isn't my turf; I'm a complete laymen regarding production and business development.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/company/employment[/url]
Yes, that's very encouraging -- as is well known, they have a problem with customer support, and most of those positions have to do with logistics & QA.
Significantly, they're hiring a VP Operations, which I don't think they had previously, and the detailed job description is instructive:
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/vp-of-operations-at-zero-motorcycles-inc-1656976413/ (https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/vp-of-operations-at-zero-motorcycles-inc-1656976413/)
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[…] I also hope they've also been thinking about hard luggage options
At the dealership I was told, that they will offer that. They spoke about sorts of a Sports Tourer.
Next Fall? 8-9 months from now? Seems a bit too far away to announce now. I suspect there might be lots of potential customers who would delay purchases & wait, if so.
I'd expect 2-4 months, in time for the Spring riding season.
It might well be that my dealer was cautious about that after the experience with the SR/F, where some customers had to wait for their bike until near the end of the last season. Zero felt really uncomfortable about that according to the EU Zero representative.
Also, presumably, the frame & drivetrain & charging aren't changed from the SR/F at all, likely ditto suspension & brakes. […] I'd expect the charger & Power Tank situation to be the same as with the SR/F Premium.
I also expect that, as it is what I was told at the EICMA and what was confirmed by my Zero dealer about two weeks ago.
I'd expect technically yes, but probably not cost-effective, and not supported by Zero
Higher handlebars and lower footpegs for a more comfortable riding position at least would be nice …
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Also, presumably, the frame & drivetrain & charging aren't changed from the SR/F at all, likely ditto suspension & brakes. […] I'd expect the charger & Power Tank situation to be the same as with the SR/F Premium.
I also expect that, as it is what I was told at the EICMA and what was confirmed by my Zero dealer about two weeks ago.
Good! (Expected, but still good to have it confirmed).
I'd expect technically yes, but probably not cost-effective, and not supported by Zero
Higher handlebars and lower footpegs for a more comfortable riding position at least would be nice …
The video seemed to imply that.
What I don't understand is why any bike manufacturer would design a motorcycle these days without adjustable seat height & footpegs (except extreme sportbikes and the cheapest models). It can't cost very much to add if designed in advance, and ergonomics are a key part of the buying decision for every rider I know, irrespective of riding type. Needing to invest in 3d-party seats is ridiculous.
This is especially relevant to low-volume expensive bikes, like all electrics.
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I think it's disappointing if they haven't done anything about the charging speed. I don't really see the point in a touring bike if charging takes 2 hours. I think Energica will outsell Zero because Energica offer DC charging and bigger battery packs.
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Agreed on the charging. Zero really dropped the ball on all their models. Any bike with a charging rate of .5C or less needs to be rethought. I love my FXS, but it's super slow.
This spreadsheet I stole from another thread really illustrates that.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yWRS4EHtyGPexF4lcX4nlG5bTlSQ7Oh7tBTWL5zlbPo/edit#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yWRS4EHtyGPexF4lcX4nlG5bTlSQ7Oh7tBTWL5zlbPo/edit#gid=0)
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+1 on charging speed sentiments. CCS or bust.
Also... belt drive protection and upgrade ;)
Cas :)
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Regarding the charging options:
It has been discussed elsewhere in this forum in detail.
However:
With the rapid charger the charging nears 1C with AC.
Working in the health industry (nurse) I'm really no expert in such things. From what I've read so far I understand, that the change of the charging system is not a small step. If that's true I therefore definitively have not expected that the SR/S would bring such fundamental changes. Why would Zero build a genuinely new type of bike in the region of the top end of the market (Sam Paschel compares the SR/F with Tesla) and in the next year change the fundamentals?
To quote from this article
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/exclusive-2019-zero-sr-f-review-first-ride.html
"Now, some electro-cognizant readers will want to know why Zero didn’t include Level 3 Fast Charging. Zero’s reasoning was based on the current status of the charging infrastructure in the U.S. (and much of Europe) where 90% of the charging stations are Level 2. With Level 3 stations in their relative infancy, the decision was made to stick with Level 2 – but fast Level 2 – charging. Regarding the Level 3’s potential, Paschel says, “If you look in the future as Level 3 becomes more prominent, of course, we’re going to get our consumers the right solution.”
From that, my uninformed guess is, that if Zero survives the coming surge of new electric motorcycle producers (what I certainly hope!), Zero will come up with Level 3 DC at some point. One may guess, they are working on it already. Hopefully with the goal of the same five year warranty on the battery.
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The battery cells are 1C rated so the best you can "safely" do is one hour 0-100%. The level 2 to CCS ratio in the US is true and when you find them they cost more than filling up with gas.
DC fast charging sounds good but for "now" a 12kw DOUBLE J (put it in there guys) charging option is about as good as you can get with these cells.
On a side note I'm curious as to the health of the battery of an often fast charged battery. We'll see.
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The video remains up so I suppose that either Zero doesn't care about it or they are off on a three-day holiday and will deal with it when they return to work. Of course, by then it will be way too late. ;)
I think the bike looks nice and I do like the riding position, although the motorcycle press might not as they likely expect to see clip-on bars and high foot pegs on a sport bike.
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Of course, by then it will be way too late. ;)
The file is sitting on my harddrive already for 7 hours now ... ;D
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The battery cells are 1C rated so the best you can "safely" do is one hour 0-100%. The level 2 to CCS ratio in the US is true and when you find them they cost more than filling up with gas.
On a side note I'm curious as to the health of the battery of an often fast charged battery. We'll see.
Here is what my last CCS charge cost at a Harley shop:
Your receipt for charging
Receipt RHD / DCFAST HOG Reno, NV
Energy
Energy added
9.90 kWh
Station Parking
3:11 PM-3:55 PM
44m 34s @ $0.00/hr
$0.00
Total $0.00
It is better to use slower charging for battery life. The HD shops charge at the rate of 15 KW, but my Energica can handle 26 KW charging.
Should only use faster CCS charging when really needed. But home charging is even better for battery life.
Home charging here in Reno costs 11.7 cents per KWH to charge my 11.7 KWH battery (Coincidence that both are 11.7) and the battery should last longer at such a 3 kW charge rate (or around 1.5 KW if charged with 120 VAC).
I assume Zero gives longer battery warranties than Energica because of their lack of fast charging capabilities.
By far, most of my charging is done at home, but when I need a charge on the road, I usually look for a faster charge.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Want to wager on how long that lasts once they figure out people are charging their cars and other bikes? :)
I'm going off the pay stations that are on line now of course.
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It is better to use slower charging for battery life. The HD shops charge at the rate of 15 KW, but my Energica can handle 26 KW charging.
Should only use faster CCS charging when really needed. But home charging is even better for battery life.
Are there any software features exposed on Energica to dictate how fast you want the pack charged ? I imagine the bike can control the amperage of the charger throughout the charge cycle.
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You can control the charge rate throughout for the Energica. The bike does an amp request to the station at its voltage range. The newest models cap out an 80 amp request between 280-330ish volts. Sometimes stations give a few more amps. There's a toggle switch you can dial it down if you have a reason to, as well as set the target SoC if you don't want to go to 100% for longer term storage or other reasons.
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You can control the charge rate throughout for the Energica. The bike does an amp request to the station at its voltage range. The newest models cap out an 80 amp request between 280-330ish volts. Sometimes stations give a few more amps. There's a toggle switch you can dial it down if you have a reason to, as well as set the target SoC if you don't want to go to 100% for longer term storage or other reasons.
Very nice!
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I think it's disappointing if they haven't done anything about the charging speed. I don't really see the point in a touring bike if charging takes 2 hours. I think Energica will outsell Zero because Energica offer DC charging and bigger battery packs.
12kW is a huge improvement over what they offered last year.
Unfortunately, to get that in North America, you have to dub-J or use (some) Tesla Destination Chargers, both of which might be dubious to offer as factory features. Makes more sense for European Mennekes aka Type 2.
Also unfortunately, even LiveWire beats that charge rage, and Energica is 2.2X that and their new 19kWh Plus models arguably could go a bit higher (Energica raised charge rates with firmware updates last time around).
I will say, though, nobody beats Zero on battery warranty.
So unless you really need the touring function, Zero's the safer choice. Most motorcyclists don't do that distance.
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What togo says is true. American motorcyclists as a whole put fewer than 3000 miles on their bikes a year. I've heard as low as 1000. On the other hand I've put 6500 miles on my Energica in 4 months. This is the kind of place you're going to find the outliers/freaks, though.
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This is hopefully the faired version that was being talked about!
Here is a leaked video
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2020-zero-srs/
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This is hopefully the faired version that was being talked about!
Here is a leaked video
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2020-zero-srs/
We've been discussing that video for over a day in this thread... ::)
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I know it is late, but i will delete the post i made where i shared the video in this thread. I will leave the other 3 second video from the official website. That video can be seen on the last screen if you signup for updates on the SR/S.
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Why would you delete your post? Not that it matters when other people have shared it in new threads for some reason.
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What togo says is true. American motorcyclists as a whole put fewer than 3000 miles on their bikes a year. I've heard as low as 1000. On the other hand I've put 6500 miles on my Energica in 4 months. This is the kind of place you're going to find the outliers/freaks, though.
For many motorcycle is a toy, and outside of warmer states they often are grounded for most of the year. Add range / charging inconvenience to that, and definitely it's hard to shed the toy label. On the other hand my 6 year old DS has 32 thousand miles on it, all from commuting.
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I know it is late, but i will delete the post i made where i shared the video in this thread. I will leave the other 3 second video from the official website. That video can be seen on the last screen if you signup for updates on the SR/S.
Up to you of course, but since multiple motorcycle new sites have now re-published the leaked video, including mainstream ones like MCN (https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2020-zero-srs/) (one of the largest bike magazines worldwide), I wouldn't bother.
You weren't responsible for the leak or publishing the original video, or under an NDA.
It's not like this is going to damage Zero in any way -- they were going public in 9 days anyway, and now they'll get more media attention overall.
(Frankly, as someone who hates teaser campaigns, they deserved a leak.)
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Geepers, I've only put 2k miles in the last six months, and I've been using it for all my errands.
Our two bikes will take over about 70% of our miles in a year, it looks like.
-Crissa
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12kw charging might be good enough for now but it's still an hour of charging to get 70 miles which if we're all painfully realistic, is rubbish, and means that half the motorcycling population can't take it seriously. When you're looking at £20k+ for a bike you're not in the Tesla end of the bike market, you're in the Ferrari end of the bike market, and it's something you'll be aspiring to keep for probably many years as a Best Bike You'll Ever Own... which means it needs to be future proofed and ready to take advantage of new tech when it becomes available, which it will. When you can get a 70 mile charge in 15 minutes anywhere on the motorway in the UK people here will take it seriously as a touring machine, and if anyone hasn't noticed yet, here in the UK the people spending £20k on motorbikes aren't young people commuting to shitty jobs as baristas, they're old farts like me who ride to Scotland for a laugh over the weekend on BMWs that cost more than my family car.
So... that's why CCS or bust.
Cas :)
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Sure, i have not broken an NDA or did anything wrong. But Terry was asked by Zero to remove my post from the facebook, so i did the same thing here :)
Also, i think we all knew what this bike was going to be from the pics last year, except we had not seen it in actual production yet.
Anyways we still do not know the entire specs except that it uses the 75-10 motor, has the ZF14.4kWh pack and that it shares the frame with the SR/F.
So not everything is spoiled yet!
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My BMW F800ST riding friend says that he won't take electric motorcycles seriously until they can go over 200 miles at freeway speeds on a single charge like his BMW can on a full take of gasoline.
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That's maybe a little lofty of an ambition... not many normal bikes can do 200 miles on a tank nowadays. I reckon he'd be happy with 150 if he could charge it in 30 minutes or less and be guaranteed to find somewhere that'll charge it wherever he goes eh. And that's veeery close to reality already... a high voltage 30kWH battery should do it, and I reckon we'll see them before the end of the 2020s.
Cas :)
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That's maybe a little lofty of an ambition... not many normal bikes can do 200 miles on a tank nowadays.
My Moto Guzzi can do 400 miles on its 8.5 gallon tank. My TTSE (6.6 gal) can do 350, my Harley around 300 miles (6 gal). All on the freeway.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That's maybe a little lofty of an ambition... not many normal bikes can do 200 miles on a tank nowadays.
My Moto Guzzi can do 400 miles on its 8.5 gallon tank. My TTSE (6.6 gal) can do 350, my Harley around 300 miles (6 gal). All on the freeway.
-Don- Reno, NV
Those are quite large tanks. Out of all the bikes reviewed by MCN only around 20% have a greater than 200 mile range, about 25% of those are adventure bikes and around 12% are tourers.
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[…] and if anyone hasn't noticed yet, here in the UK the people spending £20k on motorbikes aren't young people commuting to shitty jobs as baristas, they're old farts like me who ride to Scotland for a laugh over the weekend on BMWs that cost more than my family car.
Of course – someone buying one of these machines is an early adopter, paying the price for belonging to the first ones and for the further development of the product, aiming at a deeper price in a mass market.
Also being such an 'old fart' as you put it, I'm in the favourable position of having not ridden a conventional bike so far. So all my ride planning quite naturally will play within the rules of 'electric-range'. I've done my commute of 50 km (one way) now for 14 years by a combination of bicycle, foot and train, taking nearly 60 mins from door to door. The commute by the e-motorcycle in good weather will include a small pass (Hauenstein).
For touring I will be fully aware of the limits; that I have to plan along charging stations and that I'll have to have my e-book reader with me in case of being bored while the bike gets a refill with electrons.
But I know that I will happily glide through the streets of the neighborhood, the countryside and woods, knowing, that the chance of annoying people and alarming animals with engine noise and emissions is far less than with a conventional bike.
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And my XMAX can do over 200 miles on the highway from it's 3.3 gallon tank. So what? The fact of the matter is that for 80% or more of my riding which is less than 100 miles a day my Zero is perfect. By riding the NEARLY maintenance free Zero, I put far less miles on my gas bikes which have expensive service intervals. So not only do I save on gas and routine service by riding the Zero, I'm also saving a FORTUNE on service on the two gas bikes.
My K1200LT used to go in for service at least twice a year (6K service interval). Now it goes in once every year and a half. Not every ride is 700 miles, but when I am planning on such a trip, the LT is there. Not every ride is over 100 miles either. Most of them are far below that.
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A large majority of m/c usage here in the UK is, as I say, old farts like me, who use their bikes specifically to do 350 mile jaunts to the further corners of the British Isles several times a year. It's just how the market worked out here - the yoof have no money, and all the bikes cost 10 grand and an insane amount to insure, leaving just us old rich guys. I go to bike meets these days and I'm one of the few there who even have hair, and even what I've got left is going grey... I also notice there are far, far fewer sports bikes but we've known that the sports bike market here crashed over ten years ago and continues to circle the drain.
What with the pricing of electric bikes currently, unfortunately it's the exact same demographic that they have to appeal to, and while we've got the cash, we don't want to use them for commuting.
Muses... I can't help but wonder if Zero et al might not be wise to raise some VC in order to sell a lot more bikes but make very little profit on them until the price of the technology becomes affordable, in order to prise the market open and be in a position to exploit it. Just a thought. At £10k they'd sell 5x as many units here.
/bullshit rambling mode off
Cas :)
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The meets I go to (also in the UK) I'd say it's a fairly even distribution of ages, plenty of guys around my age (28) and below as well as guys in their 40s and 50s. You're right though that it's mostly the older guys with the expensive bikes, it's very rare that I'll see someone younger than me with a more expensive bike than my Zero and it's one of the cheapest models. The older guys ride the hell out of those expensive bikes too, rarely do they post up a ride on the Facebook group that would be a suitable distance for anything other than a top end Zero.
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That's just it though no one tours in a Ferrari or any other super high end sports car because they suck at it. I don't see any videos of guys hitting all 48 states on their V4 Panagale or Triumph Bonneville or custom bobber. So why do we keep acting like Zero "must" be able to do this?
Of course they can do it and it has been done by forum members but as a huge multi year undertaking.
I would love to be able to go much farther while going faster. It would open more opportunities but it's not a deal breaker.
Go rent a real touring bike for those 2 long tour rides that people do in a year and use your electric bike for all your other real needs.
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I would point out that no, the vast majority of riding isn't several-hundred-mile jaunts.
It's trips to the grocery or commuting.
Just like American cars, people think about that once a year thing as if it were the majority of what they do the rest of the year. It's not.
And as you guys buy the new ones, people like me can buy the used ones. Maybe in five years our batteries will still be going and production will be cheaper and they'll go to even more people.
-Crissa
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The meets I go to (also in the UK) I'd say it's a fairly even distribution of ages, plenty of guys around my age (28) and below as well as guys in their 40s and 50s. You're right though that it's mostly the older guys with the expensive bikes, it's very rare that I'll see someone younger than me with a more expensive bike than my Zero and it's one of the cheapest models. The older guys ride the hell out of those expensive bikes too, rarely do they post up a ride on the Facebook group that would be a suitable distance for anything other than a top end Zero.
It seems to me that few people who frequent the BMW forums that I visit are under the age of 60 and a lot of them are over 70 and complaining about their medical problems. :(
In SR/S news: I notice that the Electric Motorcycles News site has removed its short article and photo regarding the Zero SR/S. Apparently, Zero is going after some sites that have leaked the news before they had a chance to do so and is asking them to delete the subject. But they don't seem to have had much luck with getting YouTube to take down the SR/S video so far. ;)
You know how the internet is. Once it is out there you are screwed. Just ask any politician. ;D
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And my XMAX can do over 200 miles on the highway from it's 3.3 gallon tank. So what? The fact of the matter is that for 80% or more of my riding which is less than 100 miles a day my Zero is perfect.
And that's the thing - nearly every person who says "so what" has two (including Zero) or more bikes. I only have Zero, which means for certain longer trips I drive a car because Zero won't cut it.
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Nearly every person here has more than one motorcycle.
I do not, and I do not think range is a massive problem. Because the vast majority of trips fits under the range of my five-tear-old Zero with the small battery.
-Crissa
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The majority of my trips fit under a 70 mile range, but a very large proportion of my annual mileage is touring (currently about 2500 miles a year, most trips well over 250 miles in a day). And I'm unusual in that regard because most people my age aren't using their bikes for short trips, they're only using their bikes for the touring jaunts.
Everyone else, all the kids with no money, they use TMaxs and Sinnis and Lexmoto and other assorted cheapo transport around London until it gets nicked, and then they give up on bikes and get the tube. There is a weird lack of much in the middle. Nobody's buying Panigales to go touring on because nobody's buying Panigales here. I've not seen a single one in the wild where I live (Somerset), but I've seen a whole lot of GSes.
Cas :)
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Maybe I'm an odd case, but the Zero is perfect for what I use it for. I'm in a 3 season riding climate, and I don't depend on the SR/F as a primary mode of transport. It is my only motorcycle. My primary daily driver is a dually truck that runs on diesel. My SO has a daily, and then between the two of us we have a few fun cars. I ride the SR/F as much as I can when its warmer out. DC charging was actually a turn off for me. I live in an area where there are 3 DC stations in a 100 mile radius. Maybe thats changed since Harley dealerships had to put them in. Is 6kw charging super convenient? No its not. But the 3kw charging on an Energica would have made the bike non-usable for me. 6kw makes is tolerable, being able to dual j-plug at 12kw would be nice, but wouldn't change the way I use the bike much.
I use the bike primarily for commuting to work. But because I don't like to get the truck out for short trips, I also use the SR/F for any errands that I can fit in a backpack. Sometimes I ride to the next big city over where the dealership is, which is 65 miles away of mostly 75mph interstate. I know when I make this trip that its going to take extra time to stop and charge. And there is a slower route I can take that keeps me closer to 55 most of the way. Its about a $30 trip if I use my truck. Since I can charge for free, the round trip costs about $1 on the SR/F. But its also keeping wear and tear off the truck.
I don't do big touring rides. But I will go out for a few hours on a nice night and ride around. I can stop any number of places to relax where there is a charger and let the bike top up for free. If I'm not in the mood to mess with charging, I'll take a fun car out instead. My point is that I'm not trying to force the bike to be something its not. And I'm not upset that I can't use the bike 100% of the time. I knew when I bought it that it had specific use cases and that there were things I wouldn't be able to do with it. I love the bike. I love it so much its sitting in my living room over the winter.
Saying its rubbish because it doesn't have DCFC is a bit short sighted. It might not fit your use case. Thats fine. It fits someone else's. And I'd venture to say that with how many SR/F's they sold that DC charging wasn't the end all for a lot of people. Even with their 20kw battery, I'm not hearing that Energica is backlogged for 6 months. I don't see Livewires flying out of the dealerships. And Lightning - I guess we'll see how all that shakes out. I'm not saying anything bad about the other brands. If my geography was different I'd have looked at Energica and Lightning. And in 3-5 years I might. I didn't buy the SR/F thinking it would be the last bike I ever buy.
I'm excited that they are coming out with a sport bike. I kind of wish that they offered the fairings and the wind screen as an accessory option on the SR/F.
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I'm waiting patiently for a second hand SR/f to turn up ;) I can justify owning one as a second bike but only when it's sensible money.
Cas :)
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The video remains up so I suppose that either Zero doesn't care about it or they are off on a three-day holiday and will deal with it when they return to work. Of course, by then it will be way too late. ;)
Meanwhile the video (the link to it) has been removed from this forum and from a fb-group called 'SR/S Fahrer D-A-CH' --> SR/S riders Germany, Austria, Switzerland (It puts a smile on my face that the group calls itself SR/S riders at that stage of information ...
However, Zero DOES care about it ... ;)
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Nearly every person here has more than one motorcycle.
I do not, and I do not think range is a massive problem. Because the vast majority of trips fits under the range of my five-tear-old Zero with the small battery.
-Crissa
Once you have rapid charging and a sufficient number of stations, battery size is much less of an issue. Stopping every 100 miles is a pretty good cadence for eating miles, and a charge rate of 2C+ (like Tesla and other competent cars and Energica can do) make stops about the right length for bathroom and coffee, and there's massive deployment of DCFC by ChargePoint+4000 Truckstops and ElectrifyAmerica right now, so I think we are getting there.
Zero's not in a good position for DCFC, but they are in a good position as the manufacturer with the most efficient drivetrain, I hope they can get on the DCFC ball soon, but in the meantime they are certainly doing a good job on generating excitement and sales of SR/f and SR/s. I'd like to see some journalists write some comparison pieces measuring the highway efficiency of Energica vs Livewire vs SR/f.
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...DC charging was actually a turn off for me. I live in an area where there are 3 DC stations in a 100 mile radius...
I hate to sound like Don, but there are no vehicles currently that can charge DC but not AC. An Energica can charge from a J-plug, too. At the same rate as a 'standard' SR/F does.
-Crissa
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I'm pretty sure I said that somewhere in that mess. I have a premium with 6kw. Its not an option on Energica. I said the 3kw level 2 the Energica has just wouldn't work for me. I can justify hanging out somewhere for an hour to get 60% back in the battery. I can't justify waiting 2 hours for the same range on a 3kw system. So - yes I understand that.
I'm not saying the Energica is bad, though. I was about to buy one, dealer proximity be damned. Was real close to pulling the trigger on the SS9. Last year I waited to see what the hype was about on the SR/F, and decided that was the best direction to go for my geography. If I was on the west coast - i might have followed through on the Energica.
All I was trying to get across was that the bike isn't rubbish because it doesn't have DC. I'm glad that there are options for people in different situations.
...DC charging was actually a turn off for me. I live in an area where there are 3 DC stations in a 100 mile radius...
I hate to sound like Don, but there are no vehicles currently that can charge DC but not AC. An Energica can charge from a J-plug, too. At the same rate as a 'standard' SR/F does.
-Crissa
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Yeah, I hope DC infrastructure gets better. It certainly would be pretty nice if I didn't have to carry a charger around at all ^-^. But that day is probably twenty years off.
-Crissa
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(https://linx.li/s/yjkb1k5u.jpg) (https://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10526037&postcount=506)
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Looks freakin good!
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+1, reckon it's a looker.
Cas :)
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What are the chances that this fairing will fit my SR/F?
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What are the chances that this fairing will fit my SR/F?
An upgrade path would be cool!
Steve
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Millionaires think both.
Cas :)
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Here are the first official details:
https://electrek.co/2020/02/19/zero-sr-s-electric-motorcycle-unveiled-aerodynamic-comfort-upgrades/
Official (non-tucked in) range figures remain the same as the SR/F. That probably is not ideal :(
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From the elektrek article. Range estimates are required to be done on a dyno anyway, so aerodynamics don't play a factor.
To calculate the official range ratings, the rider is required to be in an upright, non-tucked position. While the SR/S is more efficient and aerodynamic than the SR/F, the rider is also more upright than on an SR/F which adds additional wind resistance. As it turns out, that additional wind resistance with a fully upright rider coincidentally resulted in essentially identical energy consumption figures as compared to the SR/F.
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Zero hasn't released any specs yet on the SR/S so they just "published" the figures of the SR/F and made it look like its the new figures for the SR/S. There is no way that the figures for the 2 are identical. We'll know for sure in a week when Zero releases the specs officially
just my 2ct
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Here are the first official details:
https://electrek.co/2020/02/19/zero-sr-s-electric-motorcycle-unveiled-aerodynamic-comfort-upgrades/
Some nice pictures and the linkt to the 'alrady-well-known' vid also in the German 'Motorrad':
https://www.motorradonline.de/elektro/zero-sr-s-2020/
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Zero hasn't released any specs yet on the SR/S ....
But it seems they have ... - at least in Germany.
Europe-Premiere March 5th Dortmund.
Reported availability March.
Premium version in Germany: 23.740 Euros --> ~25'600 $ (probably less in the States; my guess)
Oh - I like that 'Cerulian Blue' ... !
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Zero hasn't released any specs yet on the SR/S so they just "published" the figures of the SR/F and made it look like its the new figures for the SR/S. There is no way that the figures for the 2 are identical. We'll know for sure in a week when Zero releases the specs officially
just my 2ct
I hope you're right. If there's no improvement when not tucked in, that means the fairing isn't helping aero at all. Not that weather/wind protection is bad;
if the price I saw on one of the news websites is true (specs & price aren't on Zero's site yet), the bike will cost $500 over the corresponding SR/F (there will be two versions, Standard & Premium with the same differences as in the SR/F). That's a really low price for the fairing -- I would have expected $1500+ .
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A review on the SR/S. Strangely I found this linked from Zero's own Facebook page, and their Instagram account (not verified but I assume it's official) is sharing SR/S posts from other pages. I'm really surprised they've just gone along with all the leaks and even allowed a site to post up an early review. You have to wonder if anyone is going to care about the official announcement on the 24th.
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/2020-zero-sr-s-review-first-ride.html
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Here's a moto-journalist review, which shows some realistic critiques (oops, TheRan beat me to it while I was typing):
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/2020-zero-sr-s-review-first-ride.html (https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/2020-zero-sr-s-review-first-ride.html)
I'm not sure about the range figures yet, but I believe the 13% improvement claim. It just sounds realistic compared to say the Hollywood Electrics fairing which offers a similar improvement.
Honestly, the bike looks much more ergonomic than the SR/F and the price difference of $500 over the equivalent SR/F trims is very reasonable.
I would be glad to buy this with 6kW charging and a Power Tank, mount a broad touring windscreen with adjustable brackets, and look towards touring once the charging situation is sorted. All that Zero really needs to provide is CCS and some side racks. I also like think that Cerulian blue color/finish is really attractive.
Of course, what I'd really aim for is that extra-streamlined setup, with wheel covers and an enclosed tail with storage. That's a project, but I'd rather start with this bike than any other electric motorcycle model on offer.
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A review on the SR/S. Strangely I found this linked from Zero's own Facebook page, and their Instagram account (not verified but I assume it's official) is sharing SR/S posts from other pages. I'm really surprised they've just gone along with all the leaks and even allowed a site to post up an early review. You have to wonder if anyone is going to care about the official announcement on the 24th.
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/2020-zero-sr-s-review-first-ride.html
I received a link to that review via an email message from Motorcycle.com a few hours ago. :)
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I'm pretty sure they haven't ruined their press announcement on 2/24, although it's reasonable to say that today's release happened because of the leaker.
I think they've arranged some live event with journalists trying the bikes out, so it can't be a real wash.
Seriously, is a bunch of photos and a promo video going to ruin a bunch of hands-on reports for you?
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$500 more for the fairing is a good deal. It would cost you much more than that to buy fairing plastics like that from any other motorcycle manufacturer. The closest comparison I can think off is the up-charge between the naked Kawasaki EN400 and their Ninja 400 with a fairing similar to the SR/S. I seem to recall that the difference between those two models is around $500 to $700, depending upon the paint job. But then Kawasaki can spread the cost of the fairing over the huge number of Ninja 400 models that they sell. Likely 100 times the number of Zero SR/S sales.
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I'm pretty sure they haven't ruined their press announcement on 2/24, although it's reasonable to say that today's release happened because of the leaker.
I think they've arranged some live event with journalists trying the bikes out, so it can't be a real wash.
Seriously, is a bunch of photos and a promo video going to ruin a bunch of hands-on reports for you?
Any excitement and surprise from the announcement will now be gone. Those hands on reports probably won't be telling us any more than we already know, it's a bit more comfortable SR/F with a fairing you can tuck behind.
I've read that a similar thing happened with the SR/F, early leaks, but at least with that it was a whole new bike that no one had ridden before and presumably things still to learn. Perhaps this time Zero will have learned not to tease things a month in advance, or maybe they get more hype from these leaks and they're doing it themselves.
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Here's some glossier coverage from The Verge, "the Gulfstream of electric motorcycles" which is certainly marketing-speak but outside of our little inside baseball forum circles might actually convey what makes an electric motorcycle with a fairing different.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/19/21144093/zero-srs-electric-motorcycle-bike-speed-mile-range-photos-price
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I see that the SR/S has a bobble-head front brake master cylinder reservoir just like my BMW F650GS. ::)
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Nothing new the SR/F has the same. And SR/S still has the ugly gap of the trunk lid. I though they solved it.
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Zero has their website for the SR/F up and running. But what has me scratching my head is the statement that Standard models require the purchase of a $500 "Accessory Power Panel" when the Power Tank is ordered. (Hover over the "?" next to the Power Tank block.) I wonder what that does and why it is apparently not required on Premium versions. ???
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It appears to be extra new pos and neg bus bars for the batt. The instructions for Rapid Charger for non-Premiums mentions installing the bus bars on the battery, this part is omitted for the Premium install instructions. The premium we installed the rapid charger already had those. Gives the battery more connection points. The Power tank likely goes to one of the new terminals.
The pos and neg bus bars are $700 as spare parts, so maybe they bundle them to a deal.
#26 and #27 in the schematic
many of the new part #s released today have no pricing or a way to order them yet.
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Thanks. That is interesting and something that I wouldn't have thought of.