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Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: DonTom on January 24, 2020, 08:48:54 AM
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Today, after a completed tire change and oil change, I rode my Triumph Trophy SE down to the HD shop in Rocklin, CA to see if they have the LW. They do. They have the black one. IMO, it looks better in reality than it does in the photos I have seen of the LW. Almost looks like it is worth the 30K$.
One of the sales guys asked if I wanted to go for a test ride. I said "no thanks, i just want to see what it look like". Then I was kinda begged into taking the test ride. They have seen me ride my Energica there many times, as well as use their CCS charge station. And we have talked electric bikes many times, before they got their first LW in.
So I took it on the short loop they suggested, which includes a couple of miles on the freeway. When I got back I was asked how did I like it.
I replied "How honest do you want me to be?" They said, "be honest", so I was.
I found it to be extremely uncomfortable, even more so than the SR/F that I test rode a while back. Same main issue. Foot pegs up way too high, and not adjustable and in an even more uncomfortable location (to me) than the SR/F. Also, have to lean way forward. More so than the Energica Ego (which I have only sat on). Seems the LW is designed for somebody with short legs but a long Torso.
I wasn't expecting that at all.
I had no issues on how the LW would perform, also much like the Zero SR/F.
One thing I did like is that it uses a FOB instead of a key, just as does my Harley Road Glide.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I found it to be extremely uncomfortable, even more so than the SR/F that I test rode a while back. Same main issue. Foot pegs up way too high, and not adjustable and in an even more uncomfortable location (to me) than the SR/F. Also, have to lean way forward. More so than the Energica Ego (which I have only sat on). Seems the LW is designed for somebody with short legs but a long Torso.
I wasn't expecting that at all.
I had no issues on how the LW would perform, also much like the Zero SR/F.
One thing I did like is that it uses a FOB instead of a key, just as does my Harley Road Glide.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Thanks for the report. Very interesting. I rode an energica ego Saturday and I found it very harsh and loud and with very cramped leg position. How was the noise level on the LW?
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I also find this interesting because all the LW owners I have talked to, and we're in double digits at this point, are quite happy with their bike. They find the fit and finish to be up to their standards and they find it comfortable. I have seen the bike but not ridden it, and I do appreciate your input.
Tony, yeah the Ego is totally a track bike. You need to ride an SS9. Totally different experience.
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Thanks for the report. Very interesting. I rode an energica ego Saturday and I found it very harsh and loud and with very cramped leg position. How was the noise level on the LW?
Perhaps I should test ride an Ego as I have only sat on one for a few seconds and I didn't even think about the foot pegs when I did. Did you try the other Energicas?
I cannot say I noticed much noise from the LW. It sounded fine to me. In fact, I forgot that they introduced noise into the LW. I think my Energica makes more noise than the LW. I think Zeros are the most quiet of them all.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I also find this interesting because all the LW owners I have talked to, and we're in double digits at this point, are quite happy with their bike. They find the fit and finish to be up to their standards and they find it comfortable. I have seen the bike but not ridden it, and I do appreciate your input.
I also know many who are happy with the Zero SR/F, but not me. Just because the bikes didn't feel right to me, doesn't mean others won't love them. I am kinda long legged, I normally like high seats and I am sensitive to foot-peg position.
Most people probably wouldn't like my Moto Guzzi Stelvio because it has an extra high seat even when set as low as it can go. But I find it very comfy. However, My Harley has a low seat and is the most comfy bike I own for a very long trip. But it has floor boards and way up front, and down low enough.
So my comments on the Harley LW should not discourage others at all. It's just not for me.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Every time I have seen a sport-bike with little legroom, a long reach to the handlebars and a hard seat, I figure it was designed by Italians. However, I will admit that Italian touring and "standard" motorcycle designs do not have such radical seating positions - and some even have comfortable seats. ;)
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Guess I need to stop by the local Harley dealership and see if they have a Livewire demo! No interest in buying one, but I love to try new bikes (even ones I have no intention of buying).
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Guess I need to stop by the local Harley dealership and see if they have a Livewire demo! No interest in buying one, but I love to try new bikes (even ones I have no intention of buying).
I normally would not test ride bikes that I have no interest in. There are other things I do not like about the LW, such as the slow Level two charging (1.5 KW) and even slow CCS charging (12 KW). Energica is 3 KW on level two and 26 KW max on CCS.
But I wanted to at least look at it, and then I got pressured into taking it for a ride.
But now I kinda want to test ride another bike I have no interest in. The Energica Ego just so I can compare to the feel of the Harley and Zero SR/F.
BTW, I have heard of many people who expected they would love a bike until they took a test ride.
Anybody do the opposite, take a test ride on a bike that they did not expect to like but then did?
That happened to me with my Harley. The only model Harley I could stand. They redesigned to a larger frame in 2017 and what a difference that made! Also the new M8 Engine.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Anybody do the opposite, take a test ride on a bike that they did not expect to like but then did?
Honestly, that's what happened to me with the Energica, especially the EsseEsse9. I had my SR/F Premium on order after test riding one and didn't expect to like the Energicas enough to switch. I especially didn't expect to like the EsseEsse9 considering it's the "lower" performance model of their lineup.
I'm glad I decided to do my due diligence and checkout the other options. I ended up liking the Energicas and the EsseEsse9 in particular from a comfort factor that I bought it the same day and then canceled my SR/F order.
Usually, once I decide I like the look and specs of a bike, unless the test ride reveals something I hate about it, I usually end up buying the bike. The Energicas were definitely the first time I test rode bikes I didn't expect to like but did.
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Honestly, that's what happened to me with the Energica, especially the EsseEsse9. I had my SR/F Premium on order after test riding one and didn't expect to like the Energicas enough to switch. I especially didn't expect to like the EsseEsse9 considering it's the "lower" performance model of their lineup.
I'm glad I decided to do my due diligence and checkout the other options. I ended up liking the Energicas and the EsseEsse9 in particular from a comfort factor that I bought it the same day and then canceled my SR/F order.
Usually, once I decide I like the look and specs of a bike, unless the test ride reveals something I hate about it, I usually end up buying the bike. The Energicas were definitely the first time I test rode bikes I didn't expect to like but did.
Did you do a test ride on the Ego? It didn't seem all that bad to me when I sat on it, but that's not the same as a test ride. If there is any bike I would now want to test ride, it would now be the Ego. I should have done such last Saturday in Livermore but I was too busy BSing with Lawrence to do such. I am not really into sport bikes, but I wonder if I could tolerate that one.
I also should have tried out the new Ribelle.
But I am really not looking for anything new, at least not until I get some input on that 21.5 KWH battery in the real world. And I will most likely go for the SS9+.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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No test ride on the Ego for me. I've had sport bikes before and knew up front that I wouldn't be happy with a pure sport bike. Sporty nakeds and sport tourers are now my thing from a comfort factor.
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Thanks for the comments about the bikes, guys. It's really fun seeing all these different views.
-Crissa
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No test ride on the Ego for me. I've had sport bikes before and knew up front that I wouldn't be happy with a pure sport bike. Sporty nakeds and sport tourers are now my thing from a comfort factor.
With me, if I know it's a sport bike, that makes it a lot more acceptable.
But I did NOT expect the HD LW to be a sporty riding position. But it is. And so is the Zero SR/F, which I also didn't expect.
Seems you found the same with the SR/F based on your comments.
Energica did it right, IMO, make a very sporty bike and very comfy bike and one kinda in the middle. That should keep almost everybody happy, other than those who want a very light bike such as my Zero DS.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I figure you never know until you try. I didn't expect to like the Burgman when I took it for a spin YEARS ago at Daytona Beach. That ride convinced me that scooters were FUN, with a practical streak most motorcycles simply don't have (lockage storage). Now, I don't take anything for granted.
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I figure you never know until you try. I didn't expect to like the Burgman when I took it for a spin YEARS ago at Daytona Beach. That ride convinced me that scooters were FUN, with a practical streak most motorcycles simply don't have (lockage storage). Now, I don't take anything for granted.
Yeah, a buddy of mine in Reno has a Burgman. He really likes it also. I never tried it, however.
IMO, the smaller motorcycles / scooters give the most fun per dollar. I discovered that with my Suzuki DR200SE.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I went to the Harley shop here in Reno today. I went there after a ride on my Energica so I recharged there with their CCS charger as I went in to look at their bikes.
To my surprise, they have TWO LWs for sell. One of each color (one black, the other orange). This is the first time I have seen the orange one because the one in Rocklin was black and that was the first LW I have seen.
Of the two, I think the black looks the best and I normally do not care for the looks of black motorcycles.
They have not sold any LWs yet here in Reno.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Here’s my take on the Livewire.
Sonoma County Harley-Davidson - I went there to only charge my 17 Eva.
Shortly after the charge commenced, two employees came out.
They had never seen an Energica.
In passing, I asked how the Livewire sales were going.
David (sales) mentioned 2 had new homes and 3 were currently on the sales floor.
During the short visit, I mentioned I had spent time on a 14 SR as well.
He asked if I’d like to take a test drive on the Livewire for a comparison of the Eva and SR.
I almost said no, but after a moment, I thought why not.
David brought out the Black unit.
Impressive, nice looking. I was surprised. It was attractive - elegant, polished, handsome.
I mounted, it felt good.
Out on the street, impressive, handled well, acceleration was smooth and quick. Weight is ~550lbs - not noticeable at all. I was quite comfortable on it, noise level between a Zero and Energica. Again I was surprised. Rode on surface streets, about 8 miles.
For me, until I actually saw one and rode it, from all that I’d researched, I was not interested, I would not even consider it.
As I returned, 3 people were there.
Big question - How did you like it? How did it compare the SR and Eva?
My Answer - Quite impressive but for $30k before registration, maybe $33k out-the-door, not ever gonna happen. Lower the price to the low 20's and it will likely sell.
Sonoma County Harley-Davidson - a nice dealership.
Final thoughts - YMMV, Take a Livewire for a test and decide for yourself. Be glad there are excellent choices like - Energica, Harley and Zero.
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Here’s my take on the Livewire.
Sonoma County Harley-Davidson - I went there to only charge my 17 Eva.
Shortly after the charge commenced, two employees came out.
They had never seen an Energica.
In passing, I asked how the Livewire sales were going.
David (sales) mentioned 2 had new homes and 3 were currently on the sales floor.
During the short visit, I mentioned I had spent time on a 14 SR as well.
He asked if I’d like to take a test drive on the Livewire for a comparison of the Eva and SR.
I almost said no, but after a moment, I thought why not.
David brought out the Black unit.
Impressive, nice looking. I was surprised. It was attractive - elegant, polished, handsome.
I mounted, it felt good.
Out on the street, impressive, handled well, acceleration was smooth and quick. Weight is ~550lbs - not noticeable at all. I was quite comfortable on it, noise level between a Zero and Energica. Again I was surprised. Rode on surface streets, about 8 miles.
For me, until I actually saw one and rode it, from all that I’d researched, I was not interested, I would not even consider it.
As I returned, 3 people were there.
Big question - How did you like it? How did it compare the SR and Eva?
My Answer - Quite impressive but for $30k before registration, maybe $33k out-the-door, not ever gonna happen. Lower the price to the low 20's and it will likely sell.
Sonoma County Harley-Davidson - a nice dealership.
Final thoughts - YMMV, Take a Livewire for a test and decide for yourself. Be glad there are excellent choices like - Energica, Harley and Zero.
I think I met you in Livermore.
Yes, I agree the black LW really looks nice. I posted that in my first message here when I tried out the LW in Rocklin. But now that I think about it more, the reason I found it rather uncomfortable could be because I just came off my Triumph Throphy SE, which fits me very well--even better than my Energica, I recently discovered. I could have gotten a much better comparison if I rode my Energica down there, but it was here in Reno while I was in Auburn. And still is here.
Even the Harley dealers admit to me that the price of the LW is a bit too high. But there are parts of the North Bay where to many 30K$ will be much like pocket change to the rest of us.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yeah, the Bay Area counties are very wealthy. My spouse's income puts her into the top 10% of the US. (which with inequalty, that's getting to be easier and easier) but we don't even make the top 25% in our county.
We're well off, Don is even more well off... But there's a fair number who are better off than either of us.
-Crissa
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Yeah, the Bay Area counties are very wealthy. My spouse's income puts her into the top 10% of the US. (which with inequalty, that's getting to be easier and easier) but we don't even make the top 25% in our county.
We're well off, Don is even more well off... But there's a fair number who are better off than either of us.
-Crissa
According to my calculations this means you should be able to comfortably afford a cardboard box on the side of the road.
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I really wouldn't mind one at all if it came in at £20k or so, same as the SR/f or Ribelle... but as the LiveWire is supposed to be a "halo" model doesn't this mean they'd be planning a more down-to-earth specced version with slightly less fancy shocks and brakes and such? - might lop a few grand off the price.
Cas :)
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If you can't go for a test ride then you can watch someone else do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJiEUPEzpdM&feature=youtu.be
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24:50 rear Michelin scorcher tire. Is there really such a thing and what other bikes might come with this as original equipment?
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Indeed... what the hell is it. I suppose you'd quickly shred the OEM tyres in short order doing instant burnouts and then put reasonable rubber on there instead.
Cas :)
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The Michelin Scorcher tire comes on most Harley's as original equipment and was specially designed with a low-friction compound that accommodates low-power, long-lasting burnouts. They are highly recommended to add to atmospheric pollution and global warming. ::)
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That doesn't half seem at odds with the primary requirement that most of us have for tyres...
Cas :)
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The Michelin Scorcher tire comes on most Harley's as original equipment and was specially designed with a low-friction compound that accommodates low-power, long-lasting burnouts. They are highly recommended to add to atmospheric pollution and global warming. ::)
I guess I haven't been paying attention. As long as I can remember, Harley Davidson has shod their bikes with Dunlop tires... an American motorcycle equipped with American-made tires. When did this change?
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The Michelin Scorcher tire comes on most Harley's as original equipment and was specially designed with a low-friction compound that accommodates low-power, long-lasting burnouts. They are highly recommended to add to atmospheric pollution and global warming. ::)
I guess I haven't been paying attention. As long as I can remember, Harley Davidson has shod their bikes with Dunlop tires... an American motorcycle equipped with American-made tires. When did this change?
A few years ago, I believe. I have the latest 2020 Michelin tire brochure. Their "Scorcher" tires are described as "The Michelin Harley-Davidson Tire Line".
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I took a trip down Route 106 to Nassau County Harley Davidson. I'd heard they had a Livewire demo, and since I had nothing better to do I figured: Why not?
Pulling into the parking lot I saw my first surprise: When did they become a Vanderhall dealer? I know Mineolamoto used to carry them in Mineola, but didn't they drop them because they had so many problems? Anyway, I guess if anyone wants one of these things now you know where to find them on Long Island.
Walking into the showroom I got my second shock: They're also carrying a line of Chinese made eScooters (NIU)! But right in the middle of the showroom floor was a Livewire. I looked it over and it looks pretty solidly built. But then I noticed something else... I'm standing there in my heavy leather jacket, carrying my dayglo yellow helmet, OBVIOUSLY interested in a bike... and NO ONE approached me asking if I needed any help. WTF, Harley??
Eventually someone came up and asked me if I was waiting for a bike in for service (came to the wrong conclusion from what I was wearing, I guess). I told him I was just there to check out the Livewire. THAT'S when he said he'd get someone to help me. A woman named MaryLu (that's the way she spelled her name) came over to talk to me. When I mentioned that I currently rode a Zero, she wasn't familiar with the brand but a couple of other people in the shop overheard me and said: "Oh YOU'RE the guy!" (whatever that meant). In any event, several of them went out into the parking lot to check out my bike.
Anyway, they do have a demonstrator, but I was hit with my THIRD surprise of the day: They won't let anyone take it out unaccompanied! A salesperson has to ride along with you. In all the years I've been demo riding Harley Davidsons, this was a FIRST. MaryLu explained that she recently had a customer out on a demo ride who had stopped to use a gas station rest room and couldn't get the bike started again. Now she says they always send someone along just to prevent something like that from happening again. Weird!
Anyway, a nice fellow named Matt agreed to tag along with me. We took a short hop down Sunrise Highway to the Wantagh Parkway which we took south one exit to Merrick Road. We then did the freeway off/on exit dance to get back on to the Wantagh Parkway. Once on the parkway (which was completely empty heading northbound) Matt opened up his Low Rider to encourage me to do the same with the Livewire. HOLY SHIT does this thing have some legs!! And I wasn't even in "Sport" mode, I was in the intermediate "Road" setting (there are two more modes: Rain and Eco, plus three customizable settings you set yourself). For comparison, my Zero has two factory settings "Sport" and Eco" and a third setting you create for yourself.
The handling was pretty much spot on. The bike weighs over 100 lbs more than my Zero, but I never felt it. The Brembo brakes are good and strong with good feedback, though I was able to do most of my slowing using the regen function of the motor (similar to how I ride the Zero). Playing on the off-ramps gave me an opportunity to check out how well it corners and it does that very well too.
I only have two gripes about the bike. First, of course, is the ridiculously exorbitant price they want for the thing. The second was just how UNCOMFORTABLE I was on it. The Seat/Peg ratio was FAR too tight, not even my Buells cramped up my legs this much. Matt said they may eventually have different seat options available, and perhaps a peg lowering kit but right now you're stuck with the way its set up.
Anyway, it was a fun bike and the guys in the shop were all very friendly and helpful. I was surprised with how many of them wanted to check out my Zero, too. Based on them carrying the NIU scooter line and the Livewire it seems they're pretty much onboard with the electrification of our favorite pastime. Once the weather warms up I want to head up to Hudson Valley Motorsports and check out the Energica line next.
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I only have two gripes about the bike. First, of course, is the ridiculously exorbitant price they want for the thing. The second was just how UNCOMFORTABLE I was on it. The Seat/Peg ratio was FAR too tight,
Your test ride went much like mine with all the same complaints.
Have you also done a test ride on the Zero SR/F? If so, I would like to know how the LW compared to it with you. They seemed rather similar to me in comfort, but even if both were the same price I would take the Zero SR/F Premium over the LW.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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No test ride on the SR/F yet. I'd actually rather try out the new SR/S. But my next target when the weather gets regularly into the 50s again is to head upstate to the Hudson Valley and check out the Energicas. With luck they'll have an EsseEsse9 available for a test ride (but I wouldn't mind trying any of them).
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No test ride on the SR/F yet. I'd actually rather try out the new SR/S. But my next target when the weather gets regularly into the 50s again is to head upstate to the Hudson Valley and check out the Energicas. With luck they'll have an EsseEsse9 available for a test ride (but I wouldn't mind trying any of them).
But I was wondering how the SR/F would compare with the LW with you. I found them to have similar lack of comfort issues.
I am very happy with my Esse Esse 9. Be sure to test out the reverse and slow forward as I have found that to be very useful. Also very easy to switch to as needed. I don't think any of the other electric bikes have a reverse. And it's the most comfortable bike of all the electric motorcycles, IMO.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I did get to SIT on an SR/F, and my hips didn't automatically lock up and cramp like they did on the Livewire, so that's a GOOD start. I had to stand up and ride like that for several feet before I could comfortably sit down again. Last bike to do that to me was my friend's Honda CBR1000RR, and before that another friend's Ducati 748S. The SR/F reminded me a bit of the seating position on my old Buell 1125R.
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I own a Zero SR/F, my second zero.
Just test drove a Livewire. Nice motorcycle!
In case you are interested, some observations:
The HD is even smoother than the zero (which is very smooth), with almost no belt whine and zero vibration. When in drive mode but not moving the HD sends a mild haptic pulse through the seat to remind you it's live (instead of potato potato potato).
Both are crazy powerful with good throttle feel. The HD felt a bit smoother but that's subjective. Both get an A+.
The HD trail is longer and the rake is the same, so the HD should handle better at high speed and the Zero better at low speed, but it felt the opposite to me.
HD bars were more comfortable for me. I just don't get the Zero sweep. YMMV of course.
Riding positions were similar. Felt a little less stretched out on the HD.
Regenerative charging with braking is goofy on the Zero (full on or full off, not progressive like in a hybrid car, and delayed on and off after brake lever action). I'm not sure if the HD even has brake regen charging.
The HD does have regen charging when coasting, fully adjustable just like a zero. Both can be set to match the ice engine braking of your preference. The HD activates the brake light when slowing with regen, smart.
(FWIW the actual effectiveness of both types of regenerative charging on my two Zeroes has been minimal, even when riding in the mountains. Kinda disappointing. Only the rear wheel contributes, maybe that's the issue.)
HD has Brembos. Zero has J Juans. Both work great.
Did not dive into suspension adjustments, sorry don't know. Factory settings were much plusher on the HD. Zero made more a track bike.
The HD is heavier, but did not notice.
HD seat was more comfortable for me.
HD has almost no built in storage and no available rack for adding a tail case. They may or may not offer a rack in the future. The passenger seat is narrow and short, would be hard to strap stuff on behind the rider. So that means a backpack for hauling and no real lockable storage. That's a huge minus for a commuter.
The Zero has a usb port in the frunk.
No frunk on the HD does make the fake tank area a lot narrower. This might enhance rider comfort, but YMMV.
Rearview mirrors on the Zero mostly show your shoulders and upper arms. You can't see what's directly behind. Rearview mirrors on the HD show your hands and wrists. Worthless.
The Zero has grip heaters that work very well for me. The livewire does not have grip heaters. They may offer them in the future. Unknown if a retrofit will be an option.
The Zero display screen seems to be a tad bigger and a bit easier to read. The HD's is still very good, and it has bluetooth that can work with your cell phone for GPS or playing music.
The Zero app is a minor PITA, but it works. Don't know about the HD interface.
Styling is a personal thing. I like them both. The Zero paint looks much better live than it looks on the website. The HD looks much better overall to me live than on their website. The phallic engine thing is much more subdued live.
Everyone knows the charging and price differences.
There are way more HD dealers, but most don't carry the livewire at present. Evidently HD requires a large commitment of time and money from a dealer before they can carry this moto. But if it catches on more, and more CCS/SAE level 3 charge stations go online, that would mean many more fast charging options, which might make 300+ miles/day practical, in contrast with Zero at present. Personally, I would be uncomfortable riding either for that many hours due to the rider position, but I think the HD would be more comfy for a long day.
Zero uses a key, HD a fob.
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I'm not sure if the HD even has brake regen charging.
I forgot to check for that. AFAIK, only Zero increases the regen while braking. While my Tesla and Energica has many more KWs of deceleration regen, both have NO braking regen. No increase of regen at all while braking. I have seen almost 20KW of deceleration regen on my Esse Esse 9 (the display shows actual KW used and gained--so does the app).
But I like the way Zero does it MUCH better. I prefer a little regen while deceleration but I always want the very max possible regen when really braking. I am surprised not all EVs increase the regen while braking. I see no reason for not having that on all EVs. The biggest gain from regen is when we MUST slow down or stop. Regen is actually wasting power in most other cases by slowing the vehicle down--power lost that must be regained in most cases.
BTW, IMO, the Energica Esse Esse 9 is the most comfy of ALL electric motorcycles. At least to me, compared to the others I have ridden.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The choice to avoid braking regen is because it changes braking characteristics and most people don't use the brake until the end, which is less efficient for the regen.
It's frustrating, but understandable. Most drivers want single-pedal driving.
-Crissa
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The choice to avoid braking regen is because it changes braking characteristics and most people don't use the brake until the end, which is less efficient for the regen.
It's frustrating, but understandable. Most drivers want single-pedal driving.
-Crissa
I use braking regen all the time on my Zeros just to increase the regen when I want. The regen comes on before the brake pads move when lightly braking. Or brake switch should be adjusted that way, IMO.
BTW, I am not so sure than most people want single-pedal driving. I am one who doesn't want such, I would rather have the way Zero does it in all my vehicles. IOW, I prefer little regen to go to the very max possible while braking. I don't like to waste more energy than necessary.
But of course, the very best way is to have an option to turn such off and on. That would keep us both happy. :)
And Zero DOES have that option in custom mode.
So on this issue, Zero has it best, IMO.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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We're not typical riders, let alone drivers, Don. We're the loudmouth nth percent on an electric bike, which is the nth percent of motorcyclists, who are the nth percent of drivers, and there's only a few portion of drivers who actually even care about their driving tool to give them control.
Electrics and manual transmission are under 2% each of the car market. (And electrics just beat manuals last year!) And while more automatic transmissions allow that individual control over selecting gear, only a small portion of drivers even use that.
^-^ I'd like a nice, variable lever like the clutch for regen, and have it tied to the first bit of the brakes.
-Crissa
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I'd like a nice, variable lever like the clutch for regen, and have it tied to the first bit of the brakes.
Not a bad idea, a left hand lever for regen. I've wondered that as well. It might confuse ICE riders at first. On a bicycle, I always have to think about which brake is front/rear.
The Bolt has a paddle on the left side of the steering wheel that hugely magnifies regen braking.
Regen braking can easily be strong enough to perform must normal braking. Priuses and Bolts and Teslas shouldn't ever need new brake pads. All braking can be done through regen down to about 10 mph, then the mechanical brakes can be phased in so smoothly it's not felt.
Unfortunately, without a motor in the front, electric motorcycle regen braking is always going to be limited. And a fancy progressive brake switch is needed.
I'm amazed the LiveWire doesn't have regen braking. Regen is a standard feature of most motor+BMS these days. Even my little platform scooter has it. But that said, the regen braking on my FX did not prevent wearing out pads and rotor. It's not good enough yet.
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I'm not sure where this idea came from that the Livewire doesn't have regen braking... it DOES. I was using it pretty exclusively on my test ride and only used the mechanical brakes for Stop signs and red lights.
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Old Priuses and Honda hybrids used so much regen that a simple tap on the brakes were like slamming on them.
It was crazy trying to switch from my car to a friend's 'cause of this. I kept stopping way hard.
-Crissa
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On my SR-F I have full regen when brake light comes on. That way I can coast with out regen.
On my Livewire I have progressive regen when I back off of the throttle. It well regen harder than the SR-F. Just have to setup special modes like the zero.
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I'm not sure where this idea came from that the Livewire doesn't have regen braking... it DOES. I was using it pretty exclusively on my test ride and only used the mechanical brakes for Stop signs and red lights.
Are you confusing deceleration regen with braking regen? You ONLY get true braking regen when you touch the brakes.
But I have noticed some use the term too loosly and call deceleration regen as braking regen. AFAIK, only Zero has both, but I am not sure about the LW because I didn't have time to check all the screens for such stuff as if the regen increases when I brake (not just slow down, but when I actually use the brakes, as with Zeros).
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Braking regen is just literally "applying additional regen as soon as the brakes are detected" isn't it?
Cas :)
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Braking regen is just literally "applying additional regen as soon as the brakes are detected" isn't it?
Yes. But Teslas don't do it by default, for instance.
-Crissa
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It's presumably more "agricultural" on bikes though, right, because we have direct braking rather than servo-assist? So in a car they'd measure braking force at the pedal with a transducer and apply different levels of regen, whereas a bike is very unlikely to rely on a trandsucer on account of the tradeoff between safety and unreliability*?
Cas :)
* that pressure transducers we work with seem to be particularly unreliable but then again they are exposed to 3000psi and exploded every 5 seconds so I may have a biased view on them...
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Braking regen is just literally "applying additional regen as soon as the brakes are detected" isn't it?
-Crissa
> > Braking regen is just literally "applying additional regen as soon as the brakes are detected" isn't it?
> Yes
Well, not quite. If you have throttle off regen set higher than brake regen you get no extra.
> But Teslas don't do it by default, for instance.
Um. Since I owned my Tesla, as soon as I touch brake pedal on model 3, the power bar goes far into regen. Now that they have Hold mode (aka 1 pedal driving though that's misleading) letting off the throttle, the power bar shows regen occurring quite aggressively. So that's clearly wrong.
This is the bar below the speedometer, goes right when motor torque is applied to accelerate, left when motor torque is applied to decelerate.
In 70,000 miles (mostly other people driving, see of.net/red3), I haven't had to change break pads yet.
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>
Um. Since I owned my Tesla, as soon as I touch brake pedal on model 3, the power bar goes far into regen. Now that they have Hold mode (aka 1 pedal driving though that's misleading) letting off the throttle, the power bar shows regen occurring quite aggressively. So that's clearly wrong.
And compare that to slowing down without touching the brake pedal. I notice NO difference in my 2018 Tesla Model 3 (LR, AWD). Unlike Zero motorcycles where there is a difference (very noticeable in eco mode by looking at the bars on the screen).
If you see a difference when braking compared to slowing down in a Tesla, I will have a few questions.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Togo, according to Tesla, the default is for regen to not react to your use of the brake pedal, but since brake cuts throttle on application of brake, I suppose it does? But the brake pedal itself doesn't interact with the regen.
There are lots of user settings. I'm just describing it as Tesla does in their description of how the brakes work: The brakes, by default, just apply the brakes and cut the throttle.
I think like Zero, tho, the default action of the throttle is full regen when on the zero position, which would be like that. Pushing a deactivated Zero with an empty battery is hard!
-Crissa
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>> Togo, according to Tesla, the default is for regen to not react to your use of the brake pedal, ...
Point me to that please. I suspect that's the 1-pedal aka hold mode, add I think that's what Don's taking about. That's now the default. It was jarring at first, because I was used to seeing it for coast mode. But more I like it. Auto-steer/tacc is like coast mode when I want it.
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It was in their statement about unintended acceleration, togo.
-Crissa
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OK, yes, they apply strong regen when you release the accelerator pedal now. "1-pedal" aka auto Hold is now the detail. So brakes are just brakes. You can probably get the old behavior if you really want it.
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I suspect that's the 1-pedal aka hold mode, add I think that's what Don's taking about. That's now the default. It was jarring at first, because I was used to seeing it for coast mode. But more I like it. Auto-steer/tacc is like coast mode when I want it.
Nope. AFAIK, only Zero increases regen when the brake light is activated. That is what I am talking about.
Doing such would require an extra brake switch in a Tesla or an Energica because the brake light comes on when these vehicles slow down even if the brake pedal or level is NOT touched all. These vehicles detect slowing down to activate the brake light. Obvious safety reasons for that as regen can slow down a vehicle very fast even when the brakes are not touched. To the uniformed with a Tesla in front of them, they probably think the Tesla is putting on the brakes on every curve. But the brakes (most likely) were never even used.
With a Zero, the brake only comes on when you use use the brake pedal or front brake lever. That means the brake light voltage can easily be used to get MORE EXTRA REGEN while using the brakes than when costing to a stop.
I would normally prefer to have very low deceleration regen and very high braking regen at the same time, as the way Zero does it, each can be adjusted separately in the custom mode. Many Zero riders adjust their custom mode to a 0% deceleration regen and 100% braking regen for freeway use.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Tesla has a double sensor and not a mechanical linkage to the brakes, so it totally could be a software option to increase braking with regen.
Toyota and Honda hybrids did the same as Zero is doing, but it was controlled by their abs system, I think.
-Crissa
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Tesla has a double sensor and not a mechanical linkage to the brakes, so it totally could be a software option to increase braking with regen.
Should I assume you meant increase regen with braking?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Should I assume you meant increase regen with braking?
Yes, since the order of the words doesn't matter here.
-Crissa
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Doing such would require an extra brake switch in a Tesla or an Energica because the brake light comes on when these vehicles slow down even if the brake pedal or level is NOT touched all. These vehicles detect slowing down to activate the brake light.
Minor nitpick: Energica's brake light FLICKERS ONCE when regen is engaged. When brakes are applied the brake light will come on solid.
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> > I suspect that's the 1-pedal aka hold mode, ...
> Nope. AFAIK, only Zero increases regen when the brake light is activated....
Try the coasting mode on your Tesla, Don.
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> > I suspect that's the 1-pedal aka hold mode, ...
> Nope. AFAIK, only Zero increases regen when the brake light is activated....
Try the coasting mode on your Tesla, Don.
Okay, I will try that. Was that in a recent update? I just don't recall a coasting mode, unless you mean set the regen low, which I never tried.
I have not driven my Tesla for around a month or so. It just sits in the garage most of the time. Usually by the time I drive it there is an update or two ready for me to download. I think I have around 2,000 miles on it total since 2018.
I ride my motorcycles the most and I also have several ICE cars that I often need to give some exercise.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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MVetter, It may depend on what regen setting you have selected on the Energica. I have mine set on high and when I tested it I am positive the brake light stayed on.
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MVetter, It may depend on what regen setting you have selected on the Energica. I have mine set on high and when I tested it I am positive the brake light stayed on.
Perhaps it is different on different model years.
BTW, how did you test for it?
BTW, I have one of these (https://www.nolan-usa.com/products/ncom-n901l-r-ncom-bluetooth-rear-cartridge-kit-with-ess-light.html) on my main helmet and I wish it would beep or something when the brake light is lit.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Don,
I went out on a long straight road with little traffic at night. Discovered that if you looked at the road directly below the bike the road would be lightly illuminated when you hit the brakes and the brake lights came on. So I got up to about 30-40 mph and then cut the throttle and you could see the same illumination from regen as when you hit the brakes.