ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Damon => Topic started by: Crissa on January 09, 2020, 03:40:35 AM
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Neither of these sources are good, but they say 200-mph, 200-mi range, and collision alert software.
Damon is apparently out of Canada.
Businesswire (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200107005388/en/Damon-Unveils-World’s-Smartest-Safest-Fully-Connected)
Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/sites/billroberson/2020/01/07/ces2020-damons-electric-motorcycle-will-have-200-mile-range-200mph-speed-safety-tech-suite/#4d7ad6d4340f)
PS: This time it posted when I pressed enter while typing. C'mon, browser, work with me.
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The fine print is on their website: https://damonxlabs.com/
Configurations are base on USA specfications. 200+ range is estimated using the SAE J2982 "on highway electric motorcycle range standard" and references a mix of highway and urban cycle. Straight 70mph highway range is ~161 miles. Straight 60mph highway range is estimated at 201 miles. Global specifications will be issued at a later date.
Charge time is listed as "< 3 hrs @ Level 2" which implies perhaps 18kWh of capacity.
YMMV, of course.
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I thought I saw mention of a 20 kWh pack in one of the articles...and it's not big enough to hide much more than that. Snot gonna get 200 miles of freeway range without an EXTREMELY efficient fairing. It's not even as big as the Energica battery.
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The fine print is on their website: https://damonxlabs.com/
Configurations are base on USA specfications. 200+ range is estimated using the SAE J2982 "on highway electric motorcycle range standard" and references a mix of highway and urban cycle. Straight 70mph highway range is ~161 miles. Straight 60mph highway range is estimated at 201 miles. Global specifications will be issued at a later date.
Charge time is listed as "< 3 hrs @ Level 2" which implies perhaps 18kWh of capacity.
YMMV, of course.
Interesting. Your battery capacity estimate sounds about right -- the Forbes article specifically says "liquid-cooled 20kWh battery pack", but it also says 700V, which is Porsche Taycan territory.
I think I read a short article about their situational awareness system a while back, but their plans for a production bike were still vague. The bike specs seem ambitious; 160mi @ 70mph is ICE bike territory.
That said, letting journalists ride early prototypes is encouraging.
With that size pack, the sensors & cameras, and whatever extra servos they need for the adjustable ergonomics, I wonder what the curb weight will be.
The price is the other interesting point -- quoting one more than a year before before deliveries implies the HW is pretty much finalized. $25K without the premium suspension/brakes/carbon fiber sounds reasonable if the situational awareness is actually worthwhile.
Looking forward to see how they progress.
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Performance Specs
Power: >200hp (150kW motor)
Energy: 21.5 kWh
Range: >200 miles hwy, >300 city
0-60 under 3 seconds
0-100 under 4 seconds
Integrated level 2 charger (7 kw)
DC fast charging > 25kW
This is listed in the reservation area, it's not in de data on the main site.
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Performance Specs
Power: >200hp (150kW motor)
Energy: 21.5 kWh
Range: >200 miles hwy, >300 city
0-60 under 3 seconds
0-100 under 4 seconds
Integrated level 2 charger (7 kw)
DC fast charging > 25kW
This is listed in the reservation area, it's not in de data on the main site.
Most of the specs you mention above are on the main site; the battery capacity (slightly higher than the Forbes articles says, maybe it's a nominal/usable difference?) and the DC charging are new, however I'm not seeing them in the reservation area, unless they appear only after one provides CC info, which I'm not willing to do
25kW DC is also very encouraging (presumably CCS); the big missing item is still curb weight.
There's no mention of significant practical aspects, which they'll have to have for series production & sales: Dealer/parts network, warranty etc.
I'm sure they haven't ironed those out yet, which is absolutely fine for the stage they're at, but given that
it's IMO premature to take deposits (wouldn't even be legal in my jurisdiction, for a non-homologated vehicle);
any money you give a startup that isn't in escrow isn't necessarily refundable in practical terms, and probably not in legal terms either.
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Good to see that Black Berry has survived via diversification.
The AI aspect is a double edged sword.
On one hand it will make users safer but on the other hand it's likely to make users dependent on the technology (especially inexperienced ones).
But the future is not the past & systems like these likely will be the norm or even mandated.
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I am not holding my breath for this one to arrive on the consumer market any time soon. It sounds more like a technology demonstrator to me that is trolling for investors. One more prototype electric motorcycle with somewhat unbelievable performance claims. I bet Lightning beats them to the market. ::)
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I found some interesting quotes regarding the price etc. via https://www.webbikeworld.com/damon-motorcycles-hypersport-pro-electric-superbike-revealed-at-ces/ (https://www.webbikeworld.com/damon-motorcycles-hypersport-pro-electric-superbike-revealed-at-ces/)
First, they're directly dealing with the customers, so some of the cost overhead that would have gone to dealers is cut that way:
Giraud said Damon is able to offer the price on its motorcycle even with the better performance and new Shift and CoPilot system due to the direct to consumer business model. The company will operate without dealerships. This dramatically cuts down on cost and allows the company to put out its product much easier than many of the big names out there.
Then, more directly, "The battery is 60 percent of the cost of the bike.":
“They have to add a profit margin for the distributors and a profit margin for the dealers to then sell it to the consumer,” he said. “When you do that, you have to make the battery smaller. The battery is 60 percent of the cost of the bike.”
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I found some interesting quotes regarding the price etc. via https://www.webbikeworld.com/damon-motorcycles-hypersport-pro-electric-superbike-revealed-at-ces/ (https://www.webbikeworld.com/damon-motorcycles-hypersport-pro-electric-superbike-revealed-at-ces/)
First, they're directly dealing with the customers, so some of the cost overhead that would have gone to dealers is cut that way:
Giraud said Damon is able to offer the price on its motorcycle even with the better performance and new Shift and CoPilot system due to the direct to consumer business model. The company will operate without dealerships. This dramatically cuts down on cost and allows the company to put out its product much easier than many of the big names out there.
Then, more directly, "The battery is 60 percent of the cost of the bike.":
“They have to add a profit margin for the distributors and a profit margin for the dealers to then sell it to the consumer,” he said. “When you do that, you have to make the battery smaller. The battery is 60 percent of the cost of the bike.”
That's completely disingenuous.
Someone has to service the bikes (regular maintenance, fault diagnosis, repair). They have to be trained, and be qualified to work on the high-voltage drivetrain as well as standard motorcycle subsystems. Not to mention special training on the situational awareness system -- this bike's SW is going to be an order of magnitude more complex than other BEV bikes with all the sensors & servos.
Parts inventories have to be maintained in multiple locations so that not every repair causes weeks or months or downtime (as seems common with Zero).
This bike has special features that seem to definitely call for extended test rides -- who's going to keep demo bikes and where, so they can be provided, and explain the features?
Who is going to set up the bike for a new owner, and make sure it's fully functional?
No matter what you call those persons, they need to make a living. For a small company, it's much easier to do this through dealers than to setup a self-owned network of service centers, Tesla-style. It makes sense to give those same people part of the job of marketing the bikes, and getting a cut of the sales price as an incentive.
The bike market isn't like cars -- all car drivers I know never set foot at a car dealership unless they're actively looking for a new car. The service operation is separated from the sales.
The vast majority of motorcyclists I know visit bike shops multiple times a year, including when there's no needed servicing and they're not planning a bike purchase anytime soon -- to look at riding gear & farkles, chat with the staff and/or other riders, etc. Pretty much all shops also sell clothing & accessories, quite unlike car dealerships, and there's usually very little physical separation between the functions.
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Yeah, I agree that the dealership system has real benefits, even if the implementation is often crucially flawed.
And I like to make sure people get paid, and don't try to haggle if it's pushing that envelope.
What Damon is attempting is risky, but they're small and brash and likely benefit from that to a certain point. I'm not going to talk anyone into buying one, but it's good to know what the tradeoffs are up front.
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Yeah, I agree that the dealership system has real benefits, even if the implementation is often crucially flawed.
And I like to make sure people get paid, and don't try to haggle if it's pushing that envelope.
What Damon is attempting is risky, but they're small and brash and likely benefit from that to a certain point. I'm not going to talk anyone into buying one, but it's good to know what the tradeoffs are up front.
For sure.
I hope that Giraud was saying that mostly to simplify things for a journalist, and doesn't think they can really do direct-to-consumer.
It's might be possible to with very deep pockets, but AFAICS they've a 3-y.o. company with a couple of dozen employees, and have had seed VC funding to the tune of ~$4M-$5M so far.
Quite apart from that's not being how things work with motorcyclists.
Young ones starting out might be more receptive, but they won't be relevant to Damon for the near term -- the bikes will be far too expensive. AFAICS in e-motorcycle forums, e-motorcycle owners tend to be older on average than for motorcycles in general, and median age for motorcycle owners in the US is already 50 (up from 32 in 1990).
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Yeah, about that "Eliminating the middle man thing..."
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/oped/electric-motorcycle-traditional-distribution/
Don't know why Damon thinks they can do it better.
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The only thing really holding back my excitement is the proof of what the bike can do in the real world.
If this thing can hit 200MPH and do 300mi city with two riding positions for $25k plus all the gadgets, this thing is going to get the big boys attention so fast it might be the Honda Damon by the time it hits the road. Dealer problem solved.
Of course all bets are off if it can't preform as advertised but those claimed specs are gas beaters.
P.S. By the way it has a left side lever anyone know what it does?
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Damon's business plan is great for sales, not so great for their customers should anything go wrong and their bikes need servicing or repairs - as they always do. And as we all know, the more complicated a vehicle is the more likely something will go wrong. ;) I see this entire Damon news as being more pie-in-the-sky and not anything that we will see on the road anytime soon. Kind of reminds me of a certain high-tech helmet manufacturer that ran into trouble a few years ago. :o
I might add that CSC sells Chinese motorcycles via the internet and ships them to their customers in a box. I works for them because all but one of their models is ICE powered and they have arrangements with local established motorcycle shops to service and repair the bikes should it be needed. They do have one small city EV, however I have no idea how they deal with any problems with that model. ??? It is very cheap to buy so maybe they get tossed in the trash if anything goes wrong. ::)
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I think they have jumped on the scene and are all but saying "buy this company, and your in the lead".
I agree about the repair nightmare of no service centers but that makes them look vulnerable with a problem that any of the big motorcycle companies can fix by using their own network.
Of course there was Mission and (cough Lighting) who haven't given what they promised to this point. They do have the guy from Alta so I'm not sure if that's good or bad.
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That is one reason I skipped the CSC.
Also, their response times to email was terrible.
-Crissa
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So, about the curb weight...
The RideApart bike site conducted an interview (https://www.rideapart.com/articles/391609/damon-motorcycles-hypersport-interview/) with Damon's CEO, Jay Giraud.
He participated in the comment section, and mentioned that the bike will weigh 440lbs (200kg).
That sounded very aggressive to me given the features & specs, so I asked again to make sure it wasn't a typo -- yes, that's the curb weight.
Not surprisingly, he isn't going to reveal how they think they'll achieve that, but now I'm really curious. Deliveries are intended to start sometime this year, so it's not like they could be relying on some magic future battery that has double the current Wh/kg numbers.
Oh, and he also stated that warranty will be 2 years, unlimited mileage (if there isn't a longer warranty on the battery, that's disappointing -- AFAIR the competition gives 4-5 years), and that physical repairs will be conducted by dealers trained to do it.
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Oh, and he also stated that warranty will be 2 years, unlimited mileage (if there isn't a longer warranty on the battery, that's disappointing -- AFAIR the competition gives 4-5 years), and that physical repairs will be conducted by dealers trained to do it.
FYI: Energica only gives three years on their battery. Certainly a MAJOR sticking point with me since the battery is the most expensive component of the bike.
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Oh, and he also stated that warranty will be 2 years, unlimited mileage (if there isn't a longer warranty on the battery, that's disappointing -- AFAIR the competition gives 4-5 years), and that physical repairs will be conducted by dealers trained to do it.
FYI: Energica only gives three years on their battery. Certainly a MAJOR sticking point with me since the battery is the most expensive component of the bike.
And may not be replaceable except by the factory and at great expense?
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3 years is quite standard for a vehicle warranty. Look at Ducati.
Another really nice thing about Energica packs is they're fully serviceable by a trained technician. Meaning let's say you own a Zero and an Energica and a cell goes bad in each. Zero batteries are fully potted, meaning they cannot be opened and worked on. The Energica pack can have individual cells swapped/replaced. It's not a fun or simple job but it's doable in theory. I don't know if it's something they offer or plan to, but it's good to have options.
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So, there's a claim that Energica's battery pack is unpotted.
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No-one ever claimed they were.
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Here is a short video by a reviewer explaining the features of the Damon at a vehicle show. I am still not believing the power, top speed and range claims, though. And I bet a lot of those electronic features will need years of development before they become fully functional and not buggy. Plus, all of those features and additional equipment are bound to cost a bundle, likely more than Damon's estimates. Plus, carbon brakes sure don't seem like they will be approved for street bike production by DOT, the EU and product liability lawyers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuErofUvfIk&feature=youtu.be
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And a little more eye candy from Damon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qbHAxdnsfI
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It still reminds me of Skelly Helmets. Lots of big ideas, technology and media hype that never managed to make it to market in a usable form :( I wonder if they will be requesting Go Fund Me investments or $10K deposits to get on the be-the-first-in-your-neighborhood-to-have-one, it-will-be-here-any-day-now, list? ::)
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It still reminds me of Skelly Helmets. Lots of big ideas, technology and media hype that never managed to make it to market in a usable form :( I wonder if they will be requesting Go Fund Me investments or $10K deposits to get on the be-the-first-in-your-neighborhood-to-have-one, it-will-be-here-any-day-now, list? ::)
Not familiar with Skelly, but Damon looks to have a problem common in many well-intentioned but overoptimistic startups: They're trying to do far too much in multiple areas, every one of which is difficult enough by itself: (1) Develop a high-performance, high-range, low-weight EV bike from scratch; (2) adjustable ergonomics; (3) the situational awareness system. Each of these things needs a lot of expensive R&D & testing, a lot of which can't be run on simulators.
Even the adjustable ergos, which looks like the simplest (no complex SW needed) needs a lot of testing to determine what the optimum movement ranges are for each, what the failure modes are and their consequences (if a HW or SW glitch causes bike parts to move unexpecredly, it could get dangerous).
Integrating all three doesn't look like something than can be done by a startup in reasonable cost & time, certainly not for starting actual deliveries in a year.
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It's sad there have been so many failed ventures that we're so distrusting. The good signs as I see them.
They are going for private and government fleet sales of their tech. This move has the high profit margin that comes with deep pockets that are filled with basically other people's money. If the contracts get done that money should cover operating costs.
They have road footage of at least working demos and show it spinning a wheel on the stand. They also show the tech working on the demo bike so there is at least some promise there.
It looks good. Very important.
Last and least the floor space at CES isn't cheap. Much easier to just run an on line fund us sites with pictures if they just want a few thousand scam dollars.
He does mention in the video at the 1:50 mark they will be at Dianeesy Stores (I have no idea how to spell it) in the U.S. I've never heard of those stores buy could be a start.
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As far as I can tell, Skully helmets in their version 2 company is actually delivering helmets.
Of course, that's five years and one (two?) buyouts later.
-Crissa
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As far as I can tell, Skully helmets in their version 2 company is actually delivering helmets.
Of course, that's five years and one (two?) buyouts later.
-Crissa
And I believe, a little jail time for the original founder of the helmet company. ;)
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200 mph capability means 200 mph tires. They ride hard don't they?
This has a frame that is the battery compartment and the reduction gear and swingarm attach to the battery/frame. At least how I read it, and they won't show any cut away pictures.
I look at the video of the moving handlebars and footpegs and think.
The idea should be to have a dead air space for the head in the tucked position and a clean air space in the upright position. I have my doubts about clean air in the upright position.
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Well it may never hit the road but I do like what they are claiming. They also want people's feedback. Here is a link if anyone is interested.
https://damonmotorcycles.com/beta
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Well the 25 Premier bikes at $40k are all sold out, reserved wise.
This company is looking better and better guys. We may have a winner.
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I was told they have also removed the word "gullible" from the dictionary.
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Harsh, but they have already shown me more than Lightning.
Feel free to go way back in the Energica pages and read some of the old posts. I want to say they had been out for over a year selling $40k Egos and at the time of their IPO had sold a total of 8 bikes. They only had one U.S. dealer which was Hollywood Electrics. They came down on their prices, as you might see I kept posting that they needed to, and their sales went up, and the Eva came out, and they keep getting better.
Damon might fall apart and never have bikes on the road, that's true, but a lack of support will kill any company.
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What really caught my eye in this report on the Damon ( https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/damon-hypersport-unveiled-at-ces ) is the claim of a 161 mile range at a steady 70 mph and that the bike can recharge from an L2 outlet in only three hours. Someone tell me that those two statements are not BS. ???
What size battery would be needed to travel for 161 miles at a speed of 70 mph and how long would it take to charge that battery pack at L2 rates?
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What size battery would be needed to travel for 161 miles at a speed of 70 mph and how long would it take to charge that battery pack at L2 rates?
You could accomplish that, but it would require some very diligent streamlining. If you could halve aerodynamic losses, which should be possible with extreme, world-class streamlining, my 2014 Zero SR (with 2016 14.4 kWh battery) could double its range, putting it in that ballpark. And it can do a full recharge in under two hours with my Diginow. A 20 kWh battery, which Energica already has, would do it and still recharge in under three hours.
Sure doesn't look like this bike has that kind of streamlining, however. Barely any at all.
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What really caught my eye in this report on the Damon ( https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/damon-hypersport-unveiled-at-ces ) is the claim of a 161 mile range at a steady 70 mph and that the bike can recharge from an L2 outlet in only three hours. Someone tell me that those two statements are not BS. ???
What size battery would be needed to travel for 161 miles at a speed of 70 mph and how long would it take to charge that battery pack at L2 rates?
Well, In Europe the onboard L2 chargers on BEV cars are usually 7.2kW if single-phase, and L2 EVSEs mostly support that (residential ones as well as public ones, since they're all 230/240V). If using the common "charging to 80% SoC" metric (before the serious taper starts), 3 hours wouldn't be unreasonable for a ~20kWh battery (probably 18kWh net usable). Of course, using Euro conditions without explicitly saying so would be sneaky... ;)
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What really caught my eye in this report on the Damon ( https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/damon-hypersport-unveiled-at-ces ) is the claim of a 161 mile range at a steady 70 mph and that the bike can recharge from an L2 outlet in only three hours. Someone tell me that those two statements are not BS. ???
What size battery would be needed to travel for 161 miles at a speed of 70 mph and how long would it take to charge that battery pack at L2 rates?
You have to specify the altitude. I suppose the tires. One should be able to recharge it at a residence with a 200 amp service given enough l2 sockets are available.
What I see is an awful lot required fields to fill out on the link for "feedback" a few posts back.
We could see things like this, really proprietary, lots of fine print to about information gathered similar to get into the Tesla self driveng options. And a removable battery not so proprietary choice down the line.
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Here is "reserve" section of their page.
https://damonmotorcycles.com/reserve
If you scroll down and see the bike colors that the people picked out and click on a bike it shows the specs.
A 21.5 kWh battery, 7kW level 2 charging and >25kW DC fast charging.
Sounds familiar. ;)
Sure it could fall through but it at least looks like a real try to me.
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Only thing Energica doesn't have is the 7kw charger, I suppose they didn't go for a faster one to save weight.
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Well ummm
Claimed* 200hp over 200mph top speed, 200 miles highway (60mph) and 300 miles city range. Plus 0-60 sub 3 seconds and 0-100 sub 4 seconds.
Rear camera, 360 object warning sensors, two riding positions changeable on the fly. Oh and under 500 pounds.
So maybe a bit more than just 1 extra kw of charging.
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Well ummm
Claimed* 200hp over 200mph top speed, 200 miles highway (60mph) and 300 miles city range. Plus 0-60 sub 3 seconds and 0-100 sub 4 seconds.
Rear camera, 360 object warning sensors, two riding positions changeable on the fly. Oh and under 500 pounds.
So maybe a bit more than just 1 extra kw of charging.
The claim is 200kg, so 440 pounds or less (curb weight). That's on a bike with lots of sensors & cameras, servos for ergnomics, large battery, very high-performance motor (last two also require active cooling system, as in liquid). And on a bike delivered to customers this year...
I'll believe it when I see it.
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Like I said before, sounds like BS to me. I still think the BS is aimed at potential investors and not future customers, though.
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If a year ago someone would have said Energica could almost fully double their battery capacity AND make the bike lighter I think we would have called BS on that as well, but it's happening.
Again I'm not putting my stamp of approval that this Damon bike is 100% legit and perfect but we have been promised these types of jumps in technology for years so I'm not fighting the idea that it's on it's way.
They won two CES awards. So how much proof testing did the people at CES do? We'll see in the coming year if they gain momentum.
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We shall see. I think we're all hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.
As far as how much "proof testing" CES did, I'm guessing it was along the lines of "look how shiny it is!!!".
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Just shiny huh? Ok good enough, I'll take it. :)
So here is an interview with Derek Dorresteyn who was one of the founders of Alta and now COO and Powertrain Development Manager of Damon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMIPZMe_Uss
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More info, well because I like it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSlPJnao3TU
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"safe, secure, 200 mph"
who writes these things?
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"safe, secure, 200 mph"
who writes these things?
He's also being hyperbolic and glib. It made a bad impression on me.
So a trip to Jakarta was the inspiration, when he found out motorcycles were the world's #1 form of transport (technically powered two-wheelers, as most aren't motorcycles but mopeds & scooters in terms of form factor) . And yet, the product isn't a safer Vespa-type scooter, it's a very high end motorcycle, which noone in the same Asian cities where scooters outnumber cars will ever be able to afford... Even here (Israel, an OECD member), scooters & mopeds outnumber actual motorcycles 10:1, the reverse ratio than in North America.
So a motorbike is "20ieth" the weight of a car? They're aiming at a 200kg bike, curb weight. 20x that, 4000kg, isn't car territory at all -- in most of the world outside North America, anything above 3500kg GVWR (realistically, 2500kg curb weight) would be a commercial vehicle. "10th" would be more like it.
Anyway, so a 200mi highway range is easy because of the low relative weight of a bike vs. car? That's glib, and he has to know it's completely false. Aerodynamics dominates efficiency at those speeds. If it were so easy, how come no other e-motorcycle gets >100mi at highway speed (60mph per their definition)? And their specs talk about 160mi, not 200. Heck, ICE motorcycles don't do that well vs. ICE cars, given the weight ratio, at highway speeds?
He claims their current facility in downtown Vancouver can build 1500 bikes/year; that's pretty high for a startup which has yet to build a preproduction prototype bike, and looks like overkill at this stage, not to mention expensive to keep (that area is really expensive real-estate).
He disparages the dealership model without mention of how they expect to handle servicing a very complex, rare bike with electric drivetrain and lots of systems and components no other bike model has -- OTA updates can help with SW, sure, but HW fixes? Accident repair?
Ditto sales. They intend to sell direct-to-consumer ("like Tesla") -- how are they going to demonstrate the situational awareness & adjustable ergonomics aspects without test rides? No other bike has them.
Oh, way too many Tesla comparisons, as well.
They're raising $25M of financing, and are targeting 50 employees by year end, and 100 by end next year. That at least sounds reasonable.
Actually delivering production bikes in 18 months doesn't, but that can be treated as startup optimismTM.
I hope this interview isn't representative of what Damon's trying to do... I actually like the idea of adjustable ergonomics as well as the situational awareness system, but don't think they make sense together with together with developing a from-scratch, high performance electric bike.
To the actual bike content:
Giraud says the situational awareness system tracks up to 64 objects 1.5-2 seconds ahead. That's seems insufficient for most reactions after receiving a warning, even at city speeds (in many cases, the correct reaction isn't braking, it's evasive maneuvers). The MSF courses, as well as other courses I've taken since outside the US, use 12 seconds as the distance one should scan ahead, and I've generally found that to be good advice.
Granted, restrictions on processing power, memory or cameras/sensors' range may make that infeasible, but IMO anything less than about 4-5 seconds would be basically worthless even at city speeds.
It'll be interesting to watch this develop...
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Trolling for investor dollars, I bet. ;)
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Trolling for investor dollars, I bet. ;)
Yes, he also talked up the amount of investor interest they've been getting, which may be true, but who knows. I've met with hundreds of startup teams over the years, and I've yet to meet one that admitted otherwise to someone outside the company.
My post above probably sounded quite harsh, so I should clarify. They do have a prototype that motojournalists have seen, ridden and reported on, as well as their Yamaha test mule for the situational awareness system (needs an acronym for brevity -- SAS), so it's certainly not vaporware.
But translating that into a working, sellable & maintainable bike product is a huge amount of work. Simply training the SAS SW on the many scenarios sounds like a huge job that would require data from tens of not hundreds of actual sensor & camera-equipped bikes on the road. Recall that bikes have lean angles, are capable of far more abrupt changes in orientation than a car, as well as more extreme acceleration/deceleration, & more vibration. Just interpreting what the cameras/sensors are actually seeing is far problematic. Doing that high speeds yet more so.
Even if you're running a lot of the training on simulators rather a physical bike, the data still has to be collected. Where are they getting it?
Also, interestingly, Damon's using video cameras & radar as the sensors. I wonder if that's enough -- for autonomous cars, most companies working on them believe LIDAR is necessary; Tesla is the major exception.
Now SAS isn't positioned as a full SAE L4/L5 technology, so doesn't necessarily need to have the same level of object recognition, but if it identifies some objects but not others it could function in a manner not understandable to people, which is bad. Think of cars' collision detection / automatic emergency braking systems: They're notoriously bad at detecting stationary objects, which is counter-intuitive for humans, since for us detecting a potential collision with a stationary object is far easier than with a moving one.
One of the things I find puzzling about Damon is that I looks like they're targeting the most difficult P2W (powered 2-wheeler) type for an SAS to handle right off the bat: A high-end sportbike.
In their place, I would be thinking of the expensive, high end maxi-scooters like the Suzuki Burgman 650, BMW C650, Yamaha TMax etc.
They typically cost more than same-displacement bikes (the Burgman is $11K in the US). At least here, the people who buy them tend to be wealthy, experienced riders who want a comfortable traffic-beating longish-distance commuter, although many also tour on them.
Such scooters seem to be far easier to develop an SAS for than an extreme sportbike: Far slower speeds, less extreme maneuvers, more suburban riding than canyon-carving -- easier as initial goal. I also think it would be a very sellable extra-cost feature & differentiation for the scooter manufacturers.
Hopefully Damon will release more info about the capabilities & limitations of the SAS, actual or planned, as time goes by.
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It sounds to me like Damon Motorcycles is going to need more investors - a lot more - before their planned high-tech motorcycle can become real enough to hit the consumer market.
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I'm going to go ahead and defend them at this point and see what comes of it. They say they are going to do a test ride tour through parts of the country and I signed up for their newsletter and I'll see how that goes.
So they list their investors on their website under the "team" tab as:
Round 3 Capital
Techstars
Extreme venture partners
Pallasite ventures
Oh and partnered with Blackberry. Remember them? They had phone things with a tiny little keyboard. :)
Now how much that comes to? Who knows. Do they want/need more? Very likely.
But as for "production ready" what does that even mean anymore? Slap it together and get it out there and cover problems with warranties and recalls seems to be the norm for most all vehicle companies now.
Those plastic parts we put on to save weight vs the old metal parts we used to use have cracked and melted? Here have a free one.
Endless software updates and fixes are the norm as well. Body panels look like Michael Strahan's teeth, no biggie.
You say your not getting the EPA range for your vehicle? Really? Wow that's amazing.
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Harsh, but they have already shown me more than Lightning.
Lightning has been racing for years (maybe not recently but their pedigree is well established). I like their ideas and hope these guys do well but I don't think their performance claims are based on anything except hopes and dreams.
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Oh I know, I cheered Lightning on with their Pikes Peak win (from home) and salt flats run years ago. The reference was towards the Strike which is coming up on their one year anniversary of the release of the Carbon Strike 20kWh, CCS charging, $20k sport bike that hasn't been made yet.
Damon's 200MPH claim is the one I'm not so sure of but the rest is very doable. An Ego should do 150MPH so who knows with the right gearing maybe.
Damon is supposed to be at Daytona for bike week and maybe doing test rides, we'll see.
To me these are the kinds of jumps in specs startups should be able to achieve with advances in tech and not having to reinvent the wheel.
But if they prove to be all talk and no show I'll gladly admit I was wrong.
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Damon's 200MPH claim is the one I'm not so sure of but the rest is very doable.
Actually, that's the easiest one to believe. If you sacrifice other characteristics, close to 200mph is provably doable on a production bike with appropriate tyres;
A 1999 Hayabusa approaches that, with 266 kg / 586 lb. wet weight , as does a Panigale R.
Now maintaining that speed for any length of time might be a stretch on an EV bike due to cooling system or battery capacity, but noone claimed any specific distance or time at that speed.
The situational awareness system is IME the least doable, given how complex the SW and HW must be -- AFAICS, it requires a significant % of development work a car ADAS does, and those take teams of many engineers many years.
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> Oh and partnered with Blackberry. Remember them? They had phone things with a tiny little keyboard. :)
Blackberry bought QNX, which is a real-time unix-compatible operating system used in critical realtime controls applications, like artificial hearts and stuff, so that's what that is about. A competitor to Wind River. (In a previous professional life, I did Board Support Packages for ruggedized/industrial/embedded PCs.)
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I believe the '99 and '00 Busa's (pre-restriction) were never tested to more than 190 mph or so. It sounds close to 200 but it is not even close. It takes about 200 hp to do 200 mph with the OEM bodywork and if Damon's aero is equivalent to a 'Busa (I don't believe it is) then that goal is possible. I suspect their list of "specs" on the web page is a list of design goals, admirable ones though!
If their goal is LS-218 level performance and their hardware allows it, they'll end up geared for 150-160 mph and that *is* scary quick and fast. OTOH, I think on-the-fly adjustable riding position and safety features are a game changer if they can pull it off.
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Not sure why they're bothering with these lofty speed ambitions... the motorcycling market has changed vastly in the last 20 years. Almost nobody cares about doing over a ton any more.
Cas :)
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Oh but that's because when you do those speeds now you send out a screaming signal to everyone within 2 miles that you're going that fast.
This electric way is nice and quiet. When you don't bother other people they don't care and don't make calls to stop it. :)
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It was fun back in the 90s but nowadays the twin devils of laser cameras and social unacceptability have pretty much put paid to that sort of shenanigan. This is why I've got a 690 now, so I can ride like a total dick and not break the speed limits :D*
Cas :)
* somewhere there is a hole in my logic
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Not as much info as I'd like, but it's a test ride review.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uGWUd08EZY
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I agree. Not much there. ???
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LOL your killing me man. You MR. early adopter but I guess you've seen them come and go and don't get as excited about baby steps anymore.
At least they are claiming a street test ride.
Ok Damon, now video the ride.
I don't know if they even bothered going to Daytona for mini bike week but would love some info or footage of that as well.
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I agree. Not much there. ???
Yes. On Damon's Facebook page, they say that the video is from a test ride last year.
Not blaming them, it's a really tough time for startups that still need major investments.
Under conditions like these, with a global recession expected, investors basically lose all interest in companies developing expensive discretionary products (which e-motorcycles are in North America, to an even greater degree than motorcycles in general).
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Damon is teasing "something BIG is brewing in our lab" on the FB page, that they'll supposedly announce within a few days. I don't really expect anything significant.
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I would like to see the bike taken apart or a cut away view. The frame and battery holder and motor are all sort of one and the same if I recall correctly.
I was researching the name Damon and found this
"Records indicate that 59,306 boys in the United States have been named Damon since 1880. The greatest number of people were given this name in 1976, when 2,453 people in the U.S. were given the name Damon. Those people are now 43 years old."
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So Damon is letting people buy the $40k Premier editions again and calling the first 25 "founders editions" those of course sold out cause they're awesome. So that's nice of them.
They also announced they have bought the IP of Mission Motors.
As they advertise they are the combo of Alta and Mission and Damon.
So pick which one you like best Arctic Sun or Midnight Sun and put down your $1000 deposit and be awesome too.
I think you can ride them on the left side of the road like in New Zealand too. ;)
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Nice looking bikes, but i agree that putting down a $1000 "refundable" deposit on a $40,000 motorcycle that won't be delivered for a year kind of reminds me of a company with a name that starts with an "L". ::)
https://electricmotorcycles.news/arctic-sun-midnight-sun-from-damon-motorcycles-are-available-in-pre-order/
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I'd really like to see some test results. At least the LS-218 can deliver the performance goods.
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Oh ye of little faith.
These people are in Canada.
Canadians don't lie. They don't know how. They eat maple syrup all day and that makes them happy nice people.
All kidding aside I love the look and at this point I'm looking for some media ride reviews. I'd like to see Troy from Motorcycle.com do a review with his racing electric motorcycles back ground. Or maybe a U.S. refugee down in NZ (hint).
Some of the numbers seem a little too good to be true but until the CEO threatens to kick my butt (EMF insider joke) I'll go along with their claims for now.
Buying up the Mission IP is a pretty big move and shows me they aren't just making pie in the sky claims. They also say they got 13 million in investments and orders so it's a step in the right direction.
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Or maybe a U.S. refugee down in NZ (hint).
HAHA count me in ;D
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In my continuing interest and hopes for this bike I give you another quick test ride, and well comment rather than review but hey it's something.
The test rider is Andy Cherney from Cycle World ad he's talking about the "shift" riding position changing feature of the bike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk7xqYu5iHs
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Damon teased some upcoming big development a couple of months or so ago on their FB page.
Any sign of what this is? Presumably more than the fact that suddenly they are accepting additional reservations of the "Premier" edition despite it having sold out... ::)
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Well yes. The first 25 premier bikes are now called the founders editions. They were custom painted to the buyer's choice, and yes sold out.
Now they are offering the Premier bike in two color options. Arctic Sun and Midnight Sun. Those are said to be "limited".
All you need to do is put down a $1000 deposit and pick which of the two you want. Now the total will be around $40k but "if" the thing can do 200MPH and about* 200 miles of 60MPH range, then that's not a bad price for the top of the electric motorcycle food chain. IMO
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Well yes. The first 25 premier bikes are now called the founders editions. They were custom painted to the buyer's choice, and yes sold out.
Now they are offering the Premier bike in two color options. Arctic Sun and Midnight Sun. Those are said to be "limited".
All you need to do is put down a $1000 deposit and pick which of the two you want. Now the total will be around $40k but "if" the thing can do 200MPH and about* 200 miles of 60MPH range, then that's not a bad price for the top of the electric motorcycle food chain. IMO
So no actual news at this point.
While they're certainly better at demonstrating progress than The Company Whose Name Begins With L :D,
their timeline is still very aggressive (IIRC, it was end 2020 and now pushed back to 2021);
Forget the goals of 200mph, or 200kg for a faired bike with 20kWh battery.
I've done my share of embedded systems development & integration; the situational awareness system alone should be many years of work for a large, well-funded R&D organization -- a lot of which would be a lot of testing & tuning of many prototypes on many actual roads under a variety of conditions -- esp. if it's to work well under a full envelope of sportbike riding conditions. After all, it would be the first system of its kind, and is a safety feature (if it's not 99.9999% reliable, it'll kill people who'll get to rely on it, like the current car L2 autonomy systems promoted as if they were L4/L5).
The adjustable ergonomics also need lots of testing -- think of a failure mode where a faulty relay causes one of the relvant motors to move seat or bars back & forth continually, or not synchronize properly between pegs, bars & seat.
Not saying they can't do it, but I'll reserve judgement until I see a fully working prototype tested by a least a couple of motojournalists.
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Quote: The adjustable ergonomics also need lots of testing -- think of a failure mode where a faulty relay causes one of the relvant motors to move seat or bars back & forth continually, or not synchronize properly between pegs, bars & seat.
That part seems easiest of all. Really nothing more the the power adjustable seats in any car with a saved memory function. I've never had a car seat fold me up into the steering wheel.
As for range well...
The same L company told Jay Leno that a bike going over 200MPH would have a range of about 26 miles. Now going by Zero's posted numbers (not real measured capacity) a 14.4 battery with a 3.6 power tank can do 200 city miles. That's for a non faired bike.
I want to say Damon just states an over 20 kWh battery so "maybe" 200ish miles at 50ish MPH. I want to be free from thinking about how my speed is killing my range on normal 70-80 mile rides.
As for the copilot warning system, well first I don't really care about that at all. If the motor can do what they say then everything behind you will stay that way. :) I would think it would give off a lot of false positives more than anything but hey if insurance companies believe it makes you safer and counters the motor speed then it gets a thumbs up from me.
P.S. The other news was they bought the Mission Motors IP I don't know if you saw that part or not.
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Insurance companies will be much more interested in the very detailed logs recorded by the bike of what you were doing just prior to wiping out.
Cas :)
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Here is a write up from Ride Apart talking about what Damon has been up to since CES. They think they may have 1000 orders by year end so they're still at it.
https://www.rideapart.com/articles/422179/damon-motorcycles-interview-with-jay-giraud/
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This is from Electrek talking about how Damon is going to be able to use V2H (vehicle to home) to keep your basic electric needs going for a few days because hey why not.
https://electrek.co/2020/06/25/damon-motorcycles-announces-vehicle-to-home-electric-motorcycle/
For some reason I felt a need to listen to an old Beatles song called "Don't let me down".
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The more I read about this bike, the more I'm reminded of the Lightning Strike. LOTS of promises and unbelievable specifications at an amazingly low price. The bikes that were actually delivered were nowhere NEAR what was promised. I'll believe this when I see Morgan and Brandon do one of their THOROUGH reviews on one and not one SECOND before.
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Well I have my concerns as well but a few things to add.
First, to me backing a new company-product-idea is like cheering on a little kid playing baseball. I don't want to stifle innovation and improvements by stating the safer bet that maybe the big leagues isn't in their future. As the kid hits high school ball you should still cheer them on but if they are batting .190 you want to make sure they have a backup plan in life.
Damon is taking small deposits as a way to weed out some of the pure BSers which is understandable from my point of view. But it is kind of like hitting high school ball already so it's about time to show me a little something more. To be clear they also state that it's the $40k plus bikes that will come out first (and maybe only, we'll see) so all those features at $40k seems doable.
Now as I've posted here there are a few impressions at the end of a test rides from a few people so I do believe they at least have a working bike. They have also showed a team of people working together to make and improve the bikes while Lightning has only ever featured Hatfield. I think if they can keep the money coming end from inverters the bike can be pretty good.
I've posted on here with Morgan that I would love to see there take on it and he has been in at least some communication with them about it. Of course the whole covid situation slows everything down.
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ADVRider's Baldy interviews Damon CEO Jay Giraud.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb-V3lVeqPs
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I watched that interview. Here are my comments:
- This company is taking way too much on at once.
- The ergonomic ideas are valid, but the CEO clearly can’t restrain himself from expanding the scope.
- They call out the software QNX which is valid and way better than almost all automotive kernel software, but the sheer scope of what this system will be managing and the issues involved in electric powertrain safety mean this is just way out on a limb.
- I just can’t figure out how these bikes will survive in the real world, with weathering and vibration impacting all the high end components and integrated systems with connectors. The moving component count alone sounds like a mess.
The CEO's demeanor and history seem like a real concern to me. He's an adrenaline junkie who can't focus, and one of his closest inspirations was experience at/with Skully, which isn't incriminating per se but it's not necessarily a breeding ground for a good perspective. The ideas are valid (though I disagree that the use of cameras will accomplish more than it risks in complexity/failure modes).
There's a lot of risk here that should be taken seriously.
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Valid points.
But it's not likely you get a (claimed) 200mph electric motorcycle company off the ground from an old "safe road" successful CEO. He is saying the same things I've been saying on here for years. For the masses to get on board it has to be better than a gas bike in all ways.
A real 200 mile range at 60mph alone is huge, like he said I don't want to stop and charge at all.
Did Elon set out just to make an electric car that could drive? No he make the quickest sedan in the world with the most range the fastest charging and built in plans to drive itself.
I've heard before one of their main business strategies is to license the safety tech to other major brands which is why I guess he said the other top brass said they liked it and it worked as it should.
The Shift modes are huge if they work as advertised. It shows the truth that people don't want to be hunched over all the time and value the idea of being a badass sport bike rider more than doing it all the time.
I think if they can put the bike they have talked about on the road the company will get bought up in a year. The specs on the Hypersport are just head and shoulders above the rest.
It will still come down to money which will be in short supply pretty soon.
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The range and performance figures are a totally independent set of goals to achieve than the customizable rider ergonomics and the visibility/awareness system.
Targeting both of those goals raises the moving component count and system complexity, and doing it in one initial release raises the risk dramatically.
His pitch that dealers will sign up to service the bikes without ever having sold them is another risky bet.
I'm just saying that this is a lot of risk to take on, and says something about him and how he's running the company. Motorcycle companies are much cheaper to start than car companies, but motorcycles are much riskier than cars to put out in the field.
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It depends on whether the cost of a tech doing training vs the profit of service contracts is more or less than buying an expensive exotic bike and trying to market it yourself.
He sounded pretty excited and well spoken to me, although I do doubt on the basic ability ti make these things happen. It's all at the edge of current technology.
But it would be cool. Changing posture could help with streamlining.
-Crissa
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He sounded too excited. Like he doesn't know how to back down from an opportunity or weigh options or just tell people bad news like that their pet idea needs to wait.
Things that a good manager/leader has to do to keep a company from drowning in risk or taking on massive downsides in the future.
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I think the company is primarily developing a technology demonstrator and will likely attempt to sell off various tech concepts that seem to work out on their bikes. Kind of reminds me a bit of Mission Motors - and of course, Skully Helmets. ;)
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I think the company is primarily developing a technology demonstrator and will likely attempt to sell off various tech concepts that seem to work out on their bikes. Kind of reminds me a bit of Mission Motors - and of course, Skully Helmets. ;)
Isnt Damon the leftover of Mission Motors?
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Damon bought up the Mission Motor's IP a few months ago.
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Damon bought up the Mission Motor's IP a few months ago.
That is interesting. What goes around, comes around. As they say. ;)
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Damon bought up the Mission Motor's IP a few months ago.
That is interesting. What goes around, comes around. As they say. ;)
And with any luck it comes around damn fast. :)
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So Damon posted on their FB page that in "a few weeks" there will be a request a test ride form to fill out if your interested.
And who isn't? ;D
"Damon Motorcycles: Sign up for a test ride on the application on our website coming soon in a few weeks!"
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So Damon posted on their FB page that in "a few weeks" there will be a request a test ride form to fill out if your interested.
And who isn't? ;D
"Damon Motorcycles: Sign up for a test ride on the application on our website coming soon in a few weeks!"
I think it's posted in almost all their social media: FB, Twitter, Instagram and Linkedin ;D
I definitely am interested! :D
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Everything about this bike is too good to be true. Red flags going off like crazy in my head.
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But at the same time, they've bought the right IP.
I want to see some on a track, some third-party video. Spouse didn't like the stylings but if it does do the shifting, she wants.
-Crissa
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But at the same time, they've bought the right IP.
I want to see some on a track, some third-party video. Spouse didn't like the stylings but if it does do the shifting, she wants.
-Crissa
I'll be very much looking forward to reading ride reports after people have taken demos out. In particular, what of the many claims can they already do.
As I've commented before, each of the bullet points (new-platform BEV bike, 200mph bike, 200mi range @ 200kg curb weight, adjustable ergos, situational awareness) is significant work for a startup all in itself. Doing them all simultaneously in 3 years is an extraordinary amount of work, let alone integrating them in the same bike.
AFAICS, the Mission Motors IP would only be relevant for the high-speed aspects, and since it's all 10 years old at this point, of questionable value for that. Not to mention, if they only got the IP a few months ago, it would have been too late to figure in their current designs.
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Morgan I will be very disappointed with you and Brandon if you two don't sign up for this.
I'm sure they will bring some bikes to CA and since I think there is about a 0% chance they bring one to Atlanta I need to live vicariously through you two for now.
P.S.
(Evoke review)
I got the "feels like a 2018 S in Eco mode with 30% SOC" reference very well and found it to be exactly what I thought it would be.
Now go ride the future. IF YOU DARE! ;)
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Jay Giraud won't accept my friend request on Facebook.
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You have to be a friend to get a friend.
LOL
Plus the form will be on their web page not FB
All kidding aside if you and Brandon want to get into being like pro testers then you have to admit this is a major bike release for testing.
It may have financing problems like Alta did and may not be able to make the full bike they are talking about at the price they talked about.
At least you two could see if the features really even exists (at any price) type of situation.
Even after the personal issues between Brandon and Hatfield I believe if the Strike had been a all around fantastic motorcycle Brandon would have said so and admitted he was wrong. That of course wasn't the case so I felt it was a fair and honest review of what they had put out.
In the end an honest review of Damon by people who aren't just starry eyed by the "weird" ride of an electric bike is what i would like to see. You two may have the most time on electric bikes across all (or most) brands out of any reviewers so go with that.
Anyway if you can cool if you'd rather not I understand but it seems like an opportunity to me.
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Oh no I absolutely would eat my words if it came out with all the promised specs. We were ready to eat our words with the Lightning, but we straight up didn't have to. But I have to test it. Can't test a concept.
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Ok sorry if we're talking in circles here.
Will you two sign up for a Damon test ride in a few weeks?
It may be a moot point if you can only ride in Vancouver, I don't know any further details than request a test ride.
Only brought up Lightning to prove honesty. Until proven otherwise Lightning is a mess as far as I'm concerned.
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I would love to ride anything in the greater Bay Area but I'm not willing to ride up to Vancouver for a test ride. If they wanna fly me up that's a different story. But I have no idea what stage of prototype they have right now.
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Yeah I thought about it later they may not be traveling with them but we'll see.
The stage of prototype seems to be at the level where they are letting the public test ride them.
That's the level that Lightning never hit.
I think this bike is closer to ready then maybe you think.
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Do we need to crowdfund our favorite reviewer? ^-^
-Crissa
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I read the test-ride thing as, "applications for test riding will be accepted in a few weeks" with no ETA on actual bikes at all. Is that not how you're reading it?
I see them claiming numbers like 200 horsepower, 21.5kWh battery back, 6.6kW AC charging (as well as DC of course) as indicators of having components that are, by necessity, kinda heavy. A motor that big will be heavy. And likely need liquid cooling like Energica. Probably the inverter, too, which will also be heavy. A battery that large *is* heavy. And then they say it weighs under 440 lbs? Their marketing game is phenomenal. Can't argue that. Just red flags everywhere else. The bike is not only promising the sun and the moon, but all the stars as well.
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Crissa, if there is any crowd funding then just buy me the bike and I'll talk about it a lot. :)
I kind of view them as in Beta. Some tweaking based on feedback and if some features aren't met with enthusiasm then they might go by the way side for cost savings and such.
In 2015 if someone would have given you the 2020 Energica Ego+ stats based on what we had at the time wouldn't you have been skeptical of them? But they did it.
Somebody is going to make a big jump forward with the whole EV packaging and it might be Damon and really other then high goals I haven't caught them in any untruths at this point so until I do I'll cheer them on.
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Well, it's a bigger crowd required to buy a motorcycle than to fly someone somewhere ^-^
-Crissa
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In 2015 if someone would have given you the 2020 Energica Ego+ stats based on what we had at the time wouldn't you have been skeptical of them? But they did it.
Somebody is going to make a big jump forward with the whole EV packaging and it might be Damon and really other then high goals I haven't caught them in any untruths at this point so until I do I'll cheer them on.
All of these things take time. The 21.5kWh Energica pack has been in development for 6 years. The LiveWire took like 8 years. None of the technologies Damon is promising are revolutionary, but putting them all in a package that weighs less, goes faster, and has more power than everyone else in ~1 year? As their first venture?
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Is it just me or does anyone else not see any mention of DCFC on their website? Does this potentially mean that the battery pack has no active cooling? This could contribute to a good chunk of the "low" 440 lbs weight. Even if this is dry weight, it is amazingly just about the weight of a zero SR + PT!
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Is it just me or does anyone else not see any mention of DCFC on their website? Does this potentially mean that the battery pack has no active cooling? This could contribute to a good chunk of the "low" 440 lbs weight. Even if this is dry weight, it is amazingly just about the weight of a zero SR + PT!
They most definitely had CCS DCFC in their website specs, tho' it seems to have disappeared with the migration from the damonxlabs.com domain to damon.com ; it's still there, buried in the Help section (https://help.damon.com/en/articles/4166209-what-is-my-hypersport-s-charge-time) of the site:
Does my Hypersport support fast charging?
Written by Meygan Ngo
Updated over a week ago
Charge time is just under 3 hours with the integrated J1772 Level 2.
With the CCS (DC fast charge/ combined charging system) charge time to 80% is around 45 minutes.
Since most riders will not be starting from a completely depleted pack, in practice, charge times will be less. Faster charge times may be possible in the future after we complete long term cell life studies and Damon would simply implement OTA software, unlocking this new capability directly to your Hypersport.
0-80% charging of a 21.5kWh pack translates into 17.2kWh in 45min, or an avarage rate of ~23kW . We'll see what's actually possible.
I also find it hard to believe that a bike that does their claimed performance or 200mph top speed can manage without liquid battery cooling;
The Energica Ego+ has a same-capacity pack, with only air cooling for the battery (tho' oil-cooling for the motor) and still weighs 250kg (possibly slightly more).
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The Premier version shows liquid cooling on both the Battery and Motor, the standard one only on the Motor. Same curb weight on both? I really like the idea of "Shift".
Steve
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The Premier version shows liquid cooling on both the Battery and Motor, the standard one only on the Motor. Same curb weight on both? I really like the idea of "Shift".
Steve
Huh, you're right. I don't think that was there in the previous website -- the impression was you got better non-drivetrain components only (Öhlins etc.)
At any rate, that decidedly looks odd. I'd maybe expect the Premier version to have an upgraded motor (or upgraded cooling for the motor) to allow higher performance, but not a difference w.r.t. battery TMS: That's a lot of extra testing needed.
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Yeah I thought about it later they may not be traveling with them but we'll see.
The stage of prototype seems to be at the level where they are letting the public test ride them.
That's the level that Lightning never hit.
I think this bike is closer to ready then maybe you think.
I really hope you’re right and they’re close to have their bike ready.
Looking forward to reviews from beta testers of the Hypersport.
What I don’t fully understand is how the HS model and the Premier model are going to weigh the same, when the premier model has some premium parts like a single-sided Carbon fiber swingarm, that should weigh way less than the standard swingarm of the HS model.
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((((((because they're not real))))))
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Iridezcam, I went back and tried to compare the specs of both models.
The high end bike is listed as having liquid cooled battery and the HS is not. That could be where a weight difference comes from.
The HS may not come with DC charging so no battery cooling needed.
There could be type-os in the specs or a factor that we aren't seeing.
Morgan, I like you. Maybe not so much at first but you've grown on me. You seem like your very into the whole motorcycle world and your trying to help the EV world along. I think sometimes your frustration may get the better of you because turning a hundred year tradition on it's head gets met with resistance.
Damon might fail. They might go out like Mission or get going and die off like Alta or fall short of promises like Lightning (hopefully not as bad) but all of those things could happen.
A YT search will show video closeups of the bike. It's a fully built bike not held together with wires and glue. Does it have a 200HP motor and a 21kWh battery in it at CES, well maybe not, but it does function.
There are clips of bikes riding on the street and a few post test ride clips.
So there is at least a couple working bikes that they have.
I do get your advise that someone wanting an electric motorcycle shouldn't feel like they have to sit on the sidelines waiting for something that may never come. There are very good bikes from Zero Energica and Harley (and others) right now. I encourage anyone to go test ride some and see if they work for them. If they do, pick one up and start riding.
But this HS bike is just too amazing on paper and temping from the real bike I've seen so far to just brush it off as pure fantasy.
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But this HS bike is just too amazing on paper and temping from the real bike I've seen so far to just brush it off as pure fantasy.
The point is that it seems too amazing to be real, and until they can actually demonstrate the things they say it can achieve any specs given should be taken with scepticism, just think of them as goals.
As for the weight of the bikes, perhaps I'm missing something but the spec sheet on their site just says under 440lbs for both bikes. Nothing about them being the same weight. And with how vague the specs are and how "beta" the whole thing seems it's not unreasonable to assume that perhaps they just missed out the liquid cooling on the HS battery.
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Well I look at Rivian and see almost the exact same situation.
They had been in stealth mode for years and they came out with a 180kWh 400 mile range, very nice electric truck.
The EV tech has grown enough to where companies aren't starting from scratch and trying to invent the wheel.
Damon has a founder of Alta on the team. Jay (CEO) said in an interview he worked with the military on EV to grid-base-home power transfer. They talked about the top speed was doable because Lightning did it. The battery capacity is doable because Energica has done it.
The AI and warning system is backed by Blackberry.
I mean all the parts are out there it's just a matter of putting them together in one solid package.
Not easy but again all the parts are out there, they don't have to invent them from scratch.
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Those specifications are starting to remind me of Lightning. ::) Too good to be true with the current consumer technology, unless they have access to some very expensive one-off stuff. ???
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Well I look at Rivian and see almost the exact same situation.
They had been in stealth mode for years and they came out with a 180kWh 400 mile range, very nice electric truck.
The EV tech has grown enough to where companies aren't starting from scratch and t......r. They talked about the top speed was doable because Lightning did it. The battery capacity is doable because Energica has done it.
The AI and warning system is backed by Blackberry.
I mean all the parts are out there it's just a matter of putting them together in one solid package.
Not easy but again all the parts are out there, they don't have to invent them from scratch.
Lightning record is in steam and electric semi streamliner class. At least the runs in California.
My F150 is limited to 95 mph. Do you really think the Damon dot version will go 200?
Ford has bought into Rivian from what I have read. Is it a truck?
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Ok so yes Lightning's speed run was in an aero pod.
Your Ford F150 doesn't have much to do with this so I guess your asking if the DOT will approve a bike that goes 200MPH.
The answer to that is yes.
The1999 Hayabusa went 194MPH stock.
And yes Rivian is a truck and SUV.
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Iridezcam, I went back and tried to compare the specs of both models.
The high end bike is listed as having liquid cooled battery and the HS is not. That could be where a weight difference comes from.
The HS may not come with DC charging so no battery cooling needed.
There could be type-os in the specs or a factor that we aren't seeing.
Morgan, I like you. Maybe not so much at first but you've grown on me. You seem like your very into the whole motorcycle world and your trying to help the EV world along. I think sometimes your frustration may get the better of you because turning a hundred year tradition on it's head gets met with resistance.
Damon might fail. They might go out like Mission or get going and die off like Alta or fall short of promises like Lightning (hopefully not as bad) but all of those things could happen.
A YT search will show video closeups of the bike. It's a fully built bike not held together with wires and glue. Does it have a 200HP motor and a 21kWh battery in it at CES, well maybe not, but it does function.
There are clips of bikes riding on the street and a few post test ride clips.
So there is at least a couple working bikes that they have.
I do get your advise that someone wanting an electric motorcycle shouldn't feel like they have to sit on the sidelines waiting for something that may never come. There are very good bikes from Zero Energica and Harley (and others) right now. I encourage anyone to go test ride some and see if they work for them. If they do, pick one up and start riding.
But this HS bike is just too amazing on paper and temping from the real bike I've seen so far to just brush it off as pure fantasy.
Yeah, I’ve also compared the HS and the Premier and the specs are not exactly the same in both models, and maybe both models are under 440 lb, but that doesn’t mean their weight is exactly the same. The specs are a little vague on this point, that’s true.
I’ve watched to every video I’ve found on the internet, every interview, I’ve also talked to them a few times and so far, they seem legit. Maybe they’re trying to accomplish to much at once, but as you’ve said: that kind of battery is already out there, the technology is out there (blackberry qnx), they’ve already worked in v2h technology before, they have the Mission and Alta motor experience and powertrain. It seems a matter of being able to putting it all together in the most efficient way. Not that it is an easy task to achieve, of course.
These undoubtedly are exciting times and I’m rooting for them. I hope they aren’t another lightning, or Skully or many others. I really hope they can deliver what they promise.
As I’ve already said, I can’t wait to watch to some pro test ride reviews. I can’t wait to watch their motorcycle on track. I can’t wait for them to come to Europe in hopes that they’d also perform some test rides around here :)
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You can't just say, "oh well the battery size is possible because Energica did it and the speed is possible because Lightning did it" etc. Each bike has pluses and minuses, pros and cons. Zero bikes are lightweight but charge very slowly. Energicas have large batteries and fast charging and liquid cooling but they're heavy. They're 600 lbs. Lightning went over 200 on a prototype bike that literally sacrifices every possible safety feature. You can't simply just take the best of every feature and add a cherry on top without some sacrifice.
In the Marvel universe it's like all the vampires looking at Blade and saying, "he has all of our strengths... and none of our weaknesses"
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No way in heck this bike weight's around 440 lbs with those specs.
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No way in heck this bike weight's around 440 lbs with those specs.
That my opinion as well.
I was sure this was a typo, so specifically asked the CEO about this (a while back, around the time of their CES exposure in Jan. this year), and he affirmed the number ("under 200 kg"), and that it included all the features (full fairing, the Situational Awareness system & adjustable ergonomics), adding that he wouldn't disclose how they got it that low.
Notably, they have multiple sensors (multiple cameras for 360 degrees, radar and a third undisclosed type) , and the adjustable ergonomics clearly require multiple hefty DC motors (they need to shift a rider's weight around) -- all that has to add non-negligible weight as well, ditto whatever computer does the threat processing (which would require serious cooling, as it need to function in hot weather).
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I see lots of daft ideas being thrown about with the Damon solving problems we don't have with electric motorcycles. These are the sorts of red herrings that get in the way of making an actual good motorcycle. All that AI stuff, 1080p mirrors, etc - useless, expensive.
Cas :)
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I see lots of daft ideas being thrown about with the Damon solving problems we don't have with electric motorcycles. These are the sorts of red herrings that get in the way of making an actual good motorcycle. All that AI stuff, 1080p mirrors, etc - useless, expensive.
Cas :)
+1 ;)
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Morgan, no it's like Tony Stark looking at Thanos and just saying "I'm Iron Man" and snap everything is great. LOL
Damon has all the Infinity Stones and they're placing them in the Hypersport Gauntlet. 8)
You know the main reason Energica is so heavy. I would say Damon isn't going with a steel battery case.
In fact the triangles on the sides of the Hypersport look a lot like the old Brammo setup.
I see no passenger seat on the HS so likely very little frame structure past the rider seat. (like the Strike)
Liquid cooling: How much liquid? If you have the air channeled in such a way that it increases the volume of air passing over the cooling coils you don't need as much liquid to circulate.
I can only speculate of course on what type of battery tech they're using so I won't here.
I will use the Tesla Roadster II as an example though. When it was revealed the specs blew everything away that Tesla had done to that point. Musk had said the Model 3 would never get a 100 kWh battery because there wasn't room. Then he says the little roadster will have a 200kWh battery, and a range of 600 miles. Then they did neck snapping 0-60 runs for a lot of riders with no issues with over heating. A model S can't do that. It will over heat. So what is different? Here's a hint: battery type and setup.
And guys as for cameras and processors haven't you seen smartphones lately? They are nothing. My phone has 4 cameras in the space of a quarter and the battery takes up most of the interior space of the phone.
Now is it all needed? Well were airbags needed? They showed that they helped in some crashes and now you HAVE to have them. Same with ABS and soon traction control. Insurance companies don't like paying out for dead people so they make sure laws keep that to a minimum regardless of the cost to make. Money>caring. If they show copilot helps prevent even some crashes then watch, all bikes will have to have it.
I would be concerned it will give off a lot of fales positives but we'll see.
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You can make up all the excuses you want, but when a 18kW/h Zero SR weighs 210kg the Damon with all that extra stuff isn't going to weigh under 200kg.
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Ok easy there, I'm doing this to have fun and discuss what I see as the most exciting and interesting motorcycle project that is out there. It's not my company so I don't make any excuses for anything.
I'm pointing out some "reasons" that this can work and examples of times when some people's reason for skepticism were proven wrong.
Rivian "seemed" to burst on the scene but had been working in stealth mode for years.
Tesla Roadster II blows away all "known" EV specs, even Tesla's own specs.
Energica went from a 13kWh battery to a 21kWh battery AND lost some weight. That's just crazy talk right? Then you hear how much they decreased the thickness and weight of their battery box and then it makes sense.
If you added a Zero 7.2 brick (as it is now) to a 14.4 unit the bike would weigh over 500lbs. But if they went with a different battery cell setup that didn't use potting then it might be less.
I just watched a video of a Rolls Royce conversion to a full Tesla drive train and operating system. Three guys who are a whole lot smarter than me met each one of the "but that can't be done" road blocks with a "watch me" attitude. Connected the car to a private server not to Tesla HQ and bypassed other limits with their own mother board unit (open sourced it by the way).
Where there is a will, smart people, and lots of money anything is possible. :)
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Energica went from a 13kWh battery to a 21kWh battery AND lost some weight.
And they also lost some MPH of Charge at freeway speeds. Charge twice (200%) as long to get 40% more range on the freeway than on the 13 KWH battery. That is by their own specs.
-Don- Reno, NV
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My first thought is to ignore the Energica comment there Don because this is a Damon thread. I only brought up Energica as an example of how on the surface it looked like something couldn't be done but when you dig deeper you see how they did it.
But here goes. Yes, your right that is what Energica says their new bike's charge rate is.
It may stay that way from now. In which case someone will have to choose if they would rather go farther and charge up slower or go shorter and charge quicker.
My guess is their engineers are playing it very safe with the new battery setup. After they get plenty of real world battery life data, as long as it's holding up well, they will increase the charge speed.
I think yours covers your needs well and the guys with the new bikes will report how theirs are working out I'm sure.
Edit:
So there was a charging time question on Damon's web page and wow the answer sounds familiar. :)
The question was: What is my Hypersport’s charge time?
And Damon rep Meygan Ngo responded:
Charge time is just under 3 hours with the integrated J1772 Level 2.
With the CCS (DC fast charge/ combined charging system) charge time to 80% is around 45 minutes.
Since most riders will not be starting from a completely depleted pack, in practice, charge times will be less. Faster charge times may be possible in the future after we complete long term cell life studies and Damon would simply implement OTA software, unlocking this new capability directly to your Hypersport.
End quote.
Am I learning all about this EV stuff or what? ;D
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Am I learning all about this EV stuff or what? ;D
It's about time for you to change your username to "OLD2elec". :)
I agree 99.9% with all of that last message. It's exactly what I think is going on as well. Perhaps we will find out when they release their 2022 models. . .
The other .1% is about what fits my needs. What would fit my needs with my Energica is a CCS charge station every 50 miles no matter which direction I go. I would take that over the bike's range any day.
And the way things are going, I could still be alive (and still riding)to see it happen!
Seeing that they recently added two J1772 charge station in MarkLeeVille, CA gives me hope that more will be added away from the others that are all grouped together in busy areas as more new buildings go up.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Ok man does this guy do a lot of interviews. From the YT channel called: Electric Bike Action Magazine, which is one I haven't heard of and I guess they mainly focus on E bikes and not motorcycles.
Here Jay talks about their approach of high end first and how the direct to consumer model that Tesla uses allow for a high profit margin and puts more money in R&D.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0ezB6eUpZg
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…. From the YT channel called: Electric Bike Action Magazine,.....
Here Jay talks about their approach of high end first and how the direct to consumer model that Tesla uses allow for a high profit margin and puts more money in R&D.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0ezB6eUpZg
I am confused, just in about the last week I read that the only reason Tesla shows a profit is that they essentially sell pollution credits to other entities. I am at minute 8:12
Fran
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Tesla just paid $100 million for the land in Austin to build the cyber truck so they have money from somewhere. :)
After watching the whole video, I'm impressed even more. He's playing my song on so many issues and really helped explain why some things are the way they are.
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This is one of the more interesting places on the internet, this thread. It says it has 3 times the voltage of a Zero and the motor spins significantly faster. Really vague about the battery chemistry. Seems out of touch with taking a bike out oa a crate and the time it takes to be ready to ride, and the weight for the crate seems absent. If it really comes ready to ride in 5 minutes the crate is heavier than what they get at normal bike dealerships.
I could find a few other things to mention that don't seem realistic. So Zero is stuck with pouch cells and no primary reduction. Damon is going to be pretty stuck from what I understand the frame being the reduction gearbox, engine mount and battery mount (enclosure?) the way I understand it. I see a few 4 or 5 minute videos on their YouTube presence Harley and top of the line Zero.
Half a million top of the line of today equivelant electric bike sales did he say by 5 years? All brands world wide. 2021 to 2026 inclusive? What do you think? Kind of vague on what they expect to produce, would not one have an idea of numbers they told the high end suspention and brake makers?
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This is one of the more interesting places on the internet, this thread.
Thank you, I feel the same way. ;D
Yes a crated gas bike would be a dry weight, so likely much lighter.
Sales figures post Covid are anyone's guess really.
Also he clearly states that the founders and premier bikes won't be shipped out until late 2021 so plenty of tweaking time. He also said 1 in 10 have opted for the premier bikes so they have some idea of how many.
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I am confused, just in about the last week I read that the only reason Tesla shows a profit is that they essentially sell pollution credits to other entities.
That's one reason they're profitable. But this is addition. A+B=Revenue. If B equals the profit margin... Then A-x=Revenue wouldn't be profitable. It would lose -x money.
So why would they charge less for their cars again?
(Which are currently a minority of their business compared to battery sales)
-Crissa
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I am confused, just in about the last week I read that the only reason Tesla shows a profit is that they essentially sell pollution credits to other entities.
That's one reason they're profitable. But this is addition. A+B=Revenue. If B equals the profit margin... Then A-x=Revenue wouldn't be profitable. It would lose -x money.
So why would they charge less for their cars again?
(Which are currently a minority of their business compared to battery sales)
-Crissa
You cut out the reference in the podcast time I was discussing in my post. Why ask me a question that is more of a thread hijack (edit: derail probably more appropriate) instead of going to the time 8:12 listen a few times and if you choose to respond try harder. The discussion was about mark up from manufacturing cost to final cost to the consumer.
Did you listen to it all? I guess a podcast can be a video with a still picture. Did you find any munute mark you thought was misleading or incorrect?
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Did you listen to it all? I guess a podcast can be a video with a still picture. Did you find any munute mark you thought was misleading or incorrect?
What does the podcast have to do with interacting with your own statement?
-Crissa
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Hey guys, there are 10 pages here, I am going to openly admit I have not read them. I am just curious has anyone yet called BS on the specs and fact that no real bikes have been made yet?
I am looking forward to seeing if these guys realize their specs are... shall we say... in line with the tooth fairies existence. I am hoping their specs become more realistic. If they do, then they have a shot at making feasible specs and pricing to become an actual manufacturer.
For the moment I am watching them like a pug watches a cat, very carefully and prepared to run screaming!
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;D
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Brandon your like a stray cat. We never know when you will show up.
You can look back a few pages at Morgan and my discussions about Damon's announcement of take test ride applications. I told him I hope you two sign up for a test ride if they bring them to CA.
You really should watch some of the CEO Jay's interview videos and you can take them for what it's worth to you but I get a totally different vibe from this company compared to Lightning.
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I am confused, just in about the last week I read that the only reason Tesla shows a profit is that they essentially sell pollution credits to other entities.
Tesla is spending all their money on growth and product development, that’s why their profits are minimal. They’re building three new factories simultaneously, developing the Semi, Cybertruck, and the new Roadster, building a pilot battery cell production line, expanding the Supercharger network, building new service centers, and developing who knows how many unannounced new products. That’s just the automotive business. They also are building the Energy and Solar businesses.
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(Which are currently a minority of their business compared to battery sales)
No, that’s not true, if you’re referring to their stationary battery business. Their automotive business is king, but the energy storage business will possibly be larger eventually. Elon has stated that the potential storage market is larger, but we don’t know what percentage of it will be Tesla’s.
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I am confused, just in about the last week I read that the only reason Tesla shows a profit is that they essentially sell pollution credits to other entities.
Tesla is spending all their money on growth and product development, that’s why their profits are minimal. They’re building three new factories simultaneously, developing the Semi, Cybertruck, and the new Roadster, building a pilot battery cell production line, expanding the Supercharger network, building new service centers, and developing who knows how many unannounced new products. That’s just the automotive business. They also are building the Energy and Solar businesses.
Tesla is the only car company with a margin in the 35 to 40% range. That is pretty much word for word what I was attempting to discuss. Minute approx. 8:12
How about the part where he states all of the other manufacturers who have come and toured his facility. Not sure of the exact wording or the exact minute.
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I do believe Jay from Damon was talking about other top brass trying out the Copilot function really as a stand alone technology.
I think they feel they would like to license that to other bike companies, either as a separate venture or as a revenue stream for the bike end of Damon.
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But wait there's more!
I stand corrected as now they say adding a passenger seat is an option.
Quote from Damon on their FB page:
Do you like taking a passenger on your motorcycle? 🏍??
?
If yes, we recommend our Hypersport HS! This model will have the option to add on a passenger, so you can ride into the wind with your main squeeze. 💏 ?
?
Or anyone lucky enough to enjoy the ride with you!
End Quote.
By the time it hits the market it may cook you dinner too!
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And do your taxes
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But wait there's more!
I stand corrected as now they say adding a passenger seat is an option.
Quote from Damon on their FB page:
Do you like taking a passenger on your motorcycle? 🏍??
?
If yes, we recommend our Hypersport HS! This model will have the option to add on a passenger, so you can ride into the wind with your main squeeze. 💏 ?
?
Or anyone lucky enough to enjoy the ride with you!
End Quote.
By the time it hits the market it may cook you dinner too!
Only their HS model not the Premier or Founders models. You can find this on the FAQ section of their webpage as well.
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Damon has wiz-bang features particularly with regards to safety - what regulatory standards do they mention they are in compliance to?
TUV? NHST? - they do plan to sell internationally, yes?
Do they mention ISO or CCS compliance for instance for any of their sub-systems?
If one were to purchase a Damon motorcycle would it be titled as "Production" or "Experimental" ?
Trying to make sense of the ambitious cost model they are applying - the pod-cast mentions no dealers / direct distribution methods to save money (that's it?) does that apply to customer service too? Where do I go if my Damon requires service?
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And do your taxes
Maaayyyybeeeeee!
PWM, yes they are planing to sell bikes in EU.
Without digging I think they only mention DC fast charging. I would say CCS but the no details that I remember them saying.
They have stated that service will be in 3 forms.
A Damon service center.
A dealer approved service agreement.
A van home service option. No further details on distance.
So to be frank they are trying to copy Tesla's approach completely. Also remember the founders bikes and the premier models go for $40k so not very ambitious pricing on those models.
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Thanks! I wish them the best and will pay attention. Behind the scenes there's lots that goes into a product besides good looks and great specs - time will dictate reputation - consumer markets are brutal ones to conquer.
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Thanks! I wish them the best and will pay attention. Behind the scenes there's lots that goes into a product besides good looks and great specs - time will dictate reputation - consumer markets are brutal ones to conquer.
Hi PWM,
In fact, you've been able to make reservations from Europe for any of their bikes since they opened reservations during CES Las Vegas 2020 in January.
Cheers :)
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Even though it's not even out yet it's still the 7th best electric bike.
From Manofmany dot com
https://manofmany.com/rides/motorcycles/best-electric-motorcycles
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Even though it's not even out yet it's still the 7th best electric bike.
From Manofmany dot com
https://manofmany.com/rides/motorcycles/best-electric-motorcycles
That is about as stupid a list as they come, mixing scooters, e-bicycles and motorcycles, including models that haven't been produced in years (Brammo), ones have yet to be produced, ones that by all signs never will be (Lightning Strike), ones that aren't production bikes (LS-218) ...
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Still 7th place isn't bad. ;)
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There aren't so many e-motorcycles, so it wouldn't be hard for a potential one to be up there.
The Strike exists, it's just not all there yet.
-Crissa
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Well, they also included Alta. ::) But they forgot to add the Mission S to their list. ;) Apparently they forgot to mention that their list also included electric motorcycles that you can no longer buy.
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Ok before a lot of people break down the list let me put it into full context.
I was on Damon's FB page and they posted it and I felt like they did it as a pretty tongue-in-cheek move.
Kind of finding it humorous that the new guys on the scene got listed at no. 7 on what is clearly some type of click bait Google search list from someone at Manofmany dot com. Edit: the author's name is listed as Jacob Osborn so that he gets the full credit/blame for the list.
In other words, just a joke on my and Damon's end but the list maker may have thought they were creating a super informative article.
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Now part of a much more prestigious list, the Rob Report's Best of the Best.
From T-Net:
https://www.bctechnology.com/news/2020/9/3/Robb-Report-Names-Electric-Motorcycle-Hypersport-Premier-from-Vancouver-based-Damon-Motorcycles-asBest-of-the-Best-in-Motorcycle-Innovation.cfm
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But... How can something be best before it's tested or sold?
-Crissa
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Because the media loves vaporware and hype.
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But... How can something be best before it's tested or sold?
-Crissa
Exactly!! It's THAT good!
8)
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Because the media loves vaporware and hype.
There you go using the V word again.
Look I get it. It hasn't been "proven" yet, I'll give you that. From what I've seen it's either a very serious and ambitious venture into making an amazing electric motorcycle that leap frogs the competition or an incredibly complex and reputation crushing elaborate scam.
I don't think think it's a scam by the way.
I mean Lucid, Rivian, hell even the VW ID3 isn't at owner's homes at this point. Does that make them all vaporware?
Granted there has been more testing on the other examples but the Damon was just first shown this year. It's also clearly been an all around bad year for most everything.
Honestly are you just sticking with a simple "prove it" attitude or do you not even want them to succeed?
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Now part of a much more prestigious list, the Rob Report's Best of the Best.
From T-Net:
https://www.bctechnology.com/news/2020/9/3/Robb-Report-Names-Electric-Motorcycle-Hypersport-Premier-from-Vancouver-based-Damon-Motorcycles-asBest-of-the-Best-in-Motorcycle-Innovation.cfm
Never heard of this list. A quick glance of their website turns up a random list of name-drop products with shallow summaries. Nothing prestigious about that -- total clickbait hack job.
And Damon doesn't belong on any such list anyway, until they've at least demonstrated a bike that has *all* of the features & specs they promised working, including battery capacity, weight, top speed etc., on the same bike. Not at all saying they won't -- I do know that a few journalists have experienced some of the systems working on prototypes -- but until they show a bike with everything, it can't be assumed they have it just because they say so.
That's not how it works, and the burden of proof is heavy, given how extraordinary their claims are.
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There you go using the V word again.
Look I get it. It hasn't been "proven" yet, I'll give you that. From what I've seen it's either a very serious and ambitious venture into making an amazing electric motorcycle that leap frogs the competition or an incredibly complex and reputation crushing elaborate scam.
I don't think think it's a scam by the way.
I mean Lucid, Rivian, hell even the VW ID3 isn't at owner's homes at this point. Does that make them all vaporware?
Granted there has been more testing on the other examples but the Damon was just first shown this year. It's also clearly been an all around bad year for most everything.
Honestly are you just sticking with a simple "prove it" attitude or do you not even want them to succeed?
Did you watch the hour and half long Zoom meeting/presentation they did for a few interested and prospective owners? I did. Jay showed slides from their pitch deck and discussed numbers, ideas, and other points about the bikes. Some of the stuff he said demonstrated he had good knowledge on part of the tech he's trying to showcase. Other parts demonstrate completely detached and unrealistic ideas about how the industry, motorcycles, and EVs in general work. His attitude was arrogant and condescending; very much rubbed me the wrong way. I've never seen another manufacturer in this industry talk down about their competitors the way Jay did.
You should try and find a copy of the video. It's eye-opening. Especially the slides he showed. Unless I am *incredibly* wrong, if the bikes make it to production they'll have wildly different stats than what is projected now.
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Wavelet, go to any nice book store and ask for a copy of Rob Report. It covers all things mind blowingly expensive.
Mvetter
No I have not seen it. If you find it post it or PM me with it.
Most of his other interviews I've posted here and I get a different impression.
There is a fine line between arrogance and ambitious confidence. He's certainly no worse than Elon, who made sure to make the final push back of battery day and the reveal of the Plaid S until after Lucid had topped all the old S numbers.
Speaking of Lucid who would have thought they would see a 4 door luxury sedan with a 113kWh battery pack do over 500 miles?
I bet people thought they were making those numbers up. A sub 10 sec 1/4 mile? Yeah right.
That car put out a lot of specs that people "knew" weren't possible.
We'll see. More videos coming soon.
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The Robb Report is a pretty old publication.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robb_Report
-Crissa
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Speaking of Lucid who would have thought they would see a 4 door luxury sedan with a 113kWh battery pack do over 500 miles?
I bet people thought they were making those numbers up. A sub 10 sec 1/4 mile? Yeah right.
That car put out a lot of specs that people "knew" weren't possible.
We'll see. More videos coming soon.
I haven't seen a 4 door luxury sedan with a 113kWh battery pack do over 500 miles, no. I see a claim of it, but I haven't seen it. Where can I see this car and do a test ride?
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I haven't seen a 4 door luxury sedan with a 113kWh battery pack do over 500 miles, no. I see a claim of it, but I haven't seen it. Where can I see this car and do a test ride?
Well, the filmed their commercials over by Pescadero and La Honda, and they're shipping next year, and they've had journalists on ride-alongs and drive-behinds.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/lucid/air/2021/2021-lucid-air-first-ride-review-range-test/
-Crissa
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Well, the filmed their commercials over by Pescadero and La Honda, and they're shipping next year, and they've had journalists on ride-alongs and drive-behinds.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/lucid/air/2021/2021-lucid-air-first-ride-review-range-test/
-Crissa
I see no mention of a battery capacity in that article.
The funny thing is the car is still backwards. Like, all the claims of aerodynamics and testing and blah blah blah and the car would still significantly benefit from being flipped around the other way. What are designers actually doing with their time?
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I just linked the article because it mentioned the ride-alongs.
Having a longer hood helps crash testing. And lower front helps visibility.
-Crissa
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I'm not MVetter, but:
I don't think think it's a scam by the way.
I don't think anyone here has accused them of being a scam. I don't think they are... But I used to work at a VC (not in the automotive space).
IME virtually all startups over-promise -- they have to, because (1) they never have enough money or time, and have to get investors onboard; (2) many entrepreneurs are over-optimistic (otherwise they'd never dare take the risk) and give you the best-case timeline for their product, rather than the typical- or worst-case.
So my SOP is to take anything a startup says with a grain of salt, and certainly when the claims appear improbable.
I mean Lucid, Rivian, hell even the VW ID3 isn't at owner's homes at this point. Does that make them all vaporware?
Just for accuracy's sake, the ID.3 was delivered to customers in multiple European countries in September (nearly 2000 in Norway alone); a complete production-intent Lucid Air prototype was given to and tested by a respected 3d-party company (to determine the EPA range), and journalists from multiple known publications have spent 100s of miles in such prototypes as well.
Honestly are you just sticking with a simple "prove it" attitude or do you not even want them to succeed?
In my view, yes, since the claims are highly improbable (in particular, all the mentioned features & specs on one and the same bike, developed in such short time), and therefore they need to prove it, and until they do they don't qualify as valid news. Claims aren't news.
"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and all that.
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The Robb Report is a pretty old publication.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robb_Report
-Crissa
I stand corrected, but not about the content.
In the Internet Age, it looks no different to me from many online blogs and lifestyle "publications" that list many high-profile products for clickbait.
I see no original content or analysis there, or justification for specifically choosing the products they do.
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Wavelet, go to any nice book store and ask for a copy of Rob Report. It covers all things mind blowingly expensive.
As I said in response to Crissa's link, I stand corrected on the Robb Report being well-known.
However, the fact that they include a product that's not even a publicly-demonstrated prototype at this stage tells me it's a worthless report, rather than that report lending any support for Damon. It's not like the reports authors are BEV or motorcycle experts, or have seen the bike in person.
Speaking of Lucid who would have thought they would see a 4 door luxury sedan with a 113kWh battery pack do over 500 miles?
I bet people thought they were making those numbers up.
Specifically re range (not commenting on the 1/4-mile time), most people expected the car to have a slightly below 130kWh battery, given the claimed range; I'm cautiously optimistic given the third-party company's tests, but reserve judgement until we have official EPA numbers and multiple independent people have tested the car.
That car put out a lot of specs that people "knew" weren't possible.
Not impossible, merely very expensive to achieve (as it indeed turns out from the prices they're quoting).
IMO, The most unlikely claim Damon has made IMO is a 200kg bike with a 21kWh pack capable of 200mph.
We'll see. More videos coming soon.
Absolutely looking forward to seeing a full prototype of the Damon bike, in particular, the situational awareness system (which is the main feature I find interesting).
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IMO, The most unlikely claim Damon has made IMO is a 200kg bike with a 21kWh pack capable of 200mph.
They've already started to back off on this, and the current battery pack numbers are 19.2kWh.
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Oh, I implied the article was click-baity ^-^
-Crissa
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Wavelet, I guess I was thinking of the ID4 release.
And yes I did a little small time VC myself and it is a very rosy picture that gets painted. But would you want someone to say "meh it's ok I guess"? No money for that guy.
On Lucid:
There are several EV news type videos about the Dream Air and all quote a 113 kWh battery pack for the 517 mile range.
If that isn't good enough I guess they can be contacted but I'll go with their press release until shown otherwise.
They credit this 150ish mile increase over the old S P100D due to "hyper efficient" compact motor, large focus on aerodynamics, batteries of course, and their 900 volt operating system.
They also say it will charge 300 miles of range in 20 mins on a 350kW Electrify America DC fast charger.
I used them as an example of how a company can leap frog the competition (if just briefly) in this new EV world.
It is this type of big jump in specs that makes me feel Damon very well can achieve most if not all of their goals.
It's an exciting and interesting product that people do "want" now it's a matter of getting it out.
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My thought is that there is a big difference between designing a motorcycle concept and actually mass producing, marketing, selling and providing after-sales service and parts. (Just ask Lightning and many others.) That requires big bucks and a lot of very good business sense - along with some understanding investors with deep pockets. ;)
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Yeah, those Saudi Fund guys who were courting Tesla went into Lucid big.
-Crissa
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Well the test ride application option is up and running.
Go to Damon.com
Setup an account. (Free)
Fill out a few opinion questions to help them make the best bikes for the future.
When they are in your area you'll get an Email invite.
I'm signed up. ;)
If more people in the GA or the Southeast sign up too we'll get a visit sooner rather than later.
(Don't tell the CA guys that)
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Well the test ride application option is up and running.
Go to Damon.com
Setup an account. (Free)
Fill out a few opinion questions to help them make the best bikes for the future.
When they are in your area you'll get an Email invite.
I'm signed up. ;)
If more people in the GA or the Southeast sign up too we'll get a visit sooner rather than later.
(Don't tell the CA guys that)
Yes! They're now officially announcing their test rides in social media as well.
I already signed up a few weeks back, due to the fact that I was granted early access ;D
I, same as you, also hope more people sign up and they decide to come to Europe for some of those test rides.
:)
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Nacho I'm guessing your early access was due to you putting down a deposit?
Well I have been thinking and since life is short and I'm not getting any younger, I've put down a deposit myself.
Putting my money where my mouth is so to speak (or type).
I can't tell anyone else that they should do the same at this point but if/when I take a test ride I will be all in or let everyone know if I get out.
At this point I want to ask the admins to setup a Damon section for new threads and updates.
Thank you.
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Nacho I'm guessing your early access was due to you putting down a deposit?
Well I have been thinking and since life is short and I'm not getting any younger, I've put down a deposit myself.
Putting my money where my mouth is so to speak (or type).
I can't tell anyone else that they should do the same at this point but if/when I take a test ride I will be all in or let everyone know if I get out.
At this point I want to ask the admins to setup a Damon section for new threads and updates.
Thank you.
Exactly right. A Founder’s Edition, to be precise ;D
Not sure what will happen in a year’s time. Maybe Damon is finally not able to deliver. Maybe they go bankrupt. Maybe the specs they are publishing about their hypersports are far too optimistic. And maybe I can’t afford to buy it, once the bike is released. :'(
Or maybe, just maybe, the final Hypersport specs are even better than everything Damon has announced so far.
At this point in time, I’ve decided to remain optimistic, and have also put my money where my mouth is. In fact, I put my money many months ago ;D ;D
Cheers!
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WHAT!!?
You got a Founders edition?
Sweet 8)
Were you at CES?
Is it the Grey Black bike with the Yellow striping, or the White one with the Red stripe? (only two with an "N" for the first name)
As for the total specs and the company I feel good enough to support them for at the very least giving it a 100% best effort.
To me it will come down to being able to bring in enough money in a crazy covid world.
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WHAT!!?
You got a Founders edition?
Sweet 8)
Were you at CES?
Is it the Grey Black bike with the Yellow striping, or the White one with the Red stripe? (only two with an "N" for the first name)
As for the total specs and the company I feel good enough to support them for at the very least giving it a 100% best effort.
To me it will come down to being able to bring in enough money in a crazy covid world.
At CES? No, I wish I were, but it was not in the cards for me ::). I just booked mine online, and just in time, because they were all reserved in just four days :o
And no, it’s neither the Grey nor the White one. “Nacho” is used as kind of a nickname in my country. I will leave it just like that at this moment in time ;)
As for raising enough money, thankfully, they seem to be doing just fine. I hope they keep going at the same rate in the future and deliver on their promises. :)
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And no, it’s neither the Grey nor the White one. “Nacho” is used as kind of a nickname in my country. I will leave it just like that at this moment in time ;)
Ok ok I thought it was good detective work on my part though. :)