ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Hansi on November 07, 2019, 12:01:07 PM
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Energica has released their new battery pack which I think is awesome and an electric motorcycle gamechanger and probably enough for most people when they also have DC charging. What are your thoughts on Zero vs Energica?
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Energica has released their new battery pack which I think is awesome and an electric motorcycle gamechanger and probably enough for most people when they also have DC charging. What are your thoughts on Zero vs Energica?
Read some of the latest messages in the Energica section, such as this one, Reply #43 on: Today at 23:04:00. (https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9572.msg84463#msg84463)
I have a couple of Zeros and an Energica. IMO, they don't compare well. IMO, Zeros are better for local stuff and I find the Energica better for the freeways and longer trips. The Energica is heavy, but very stable, has a reverse, MUCH faster charging (26KW). Feels more like a real motorcycle than the Zeros. And MUCH more comfy.
I am comparing to my Zeros, not the SR/F. I did do a test ride on the SR/F. It performs well, but I find it as being one of the most uncomfortable bikes I have been on, other than the seat was better than the other Zeros. But I wasn't on it long enough to say for sure.
-Don- Reno, NV
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First and foremost, because this was posted to the Zero sub-forum, I consider this post attention-seeking and inappropriate. I wish Energica enthusiasts wouldn't take up space on Zero forums "negging" on the bikes. They can co-exist just fine serving different parts of the market.
Energica certainly has achieved something (at least on paper) if they ship bikes with 21kWh of battery capacity. But their battery warranty is lackluster. 31,000 miles and 3 years is not a respectable number for a battery warranty for a practical motorcycle, because motorcycle powertrain batteries are incredibly expensive, and absolutely not serviceable. I'm not investing in EVs that turn into landfill before they pay off, or in EVs that might need $10,000 battery replacements every few years. The fast charging seems to play into that warranty limitation, but you don't get a longer warranty if you don't fast charge.
In short, I don't think Energica's battery is a gamechanger. Capacity is not the only number to consider in a battery, and there are likely some tradeoffs involved in what they've accomplished.
Energica makes a bike that has extra equipment for high performance riding. If you don't value track performance, the extra mass and maintenance complication of a gearbox (or chain and gear sprockets, coolant, etc) are a liability instead of an asset. I don't care how well it handles - 600lbs of motorcycle is not desirable. It's definitely a liability if you drop it, and less efficient as a vehicle without the rider finessing efficiency more mindfully.
Energica also doesn't offer hard luggage mounts, hard luggage, or a top case solution. That's a deal-breaker for me, as I've discussed before. I would not put my girlfriend on the back of this motorcycle. Energica makes an "ego" (selfish) motorcycle. Energica gives off Northern Italian race culture snobbery and their designs don't deny this.
I've logged about 66,000 miles on two Zero models, and aside from the lack of CCS charging, 20kWh, and a standard fairing/cockpit mounting structure, is much easier to deal with. They're also quieter, more relaxing, and easier to modify. The SR/F platform should address a great deal of issues with their models, and I've spent a lot of time documenting the bike (zeromanual.com) in ways I don't feel welcome doing around Energica. It's true that if there weren't the SR/F, Zero would inspire less confidence. But it does exist and is impressive for having improved on a number of levels.
Energica is focused on the track, and Zero is focused on the daily rider. The latter seems more likely to produce a useful motorcycle that can scale in sales and production.
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I have the zero SR/F. I tested the other Zero models and went for the SR/F because of power and traction control.
So far I didn't test ride any Energica yet. I will probably do so in the near feature just to know what I'm missing.
I skipped Energica because at the time they had the same capacity but:
- more expensive (prices on the website are VAT exclusive here)
- chain drive instead of belt drive
- warranty limited in miles (I would reach that within 1 year of use)
- didn't like the design of Eva as much (and Ego is nice but less ergonomic for longer rides)
- extra maintenance cost of oil/liquid cooling system & gearbox
- extra weight (zero is at just over 220kg, even the latest energica is still 270kg)
Their 20kWh battery and fast charging are awesome. On a zero both are impossible for the moment. You can go to +/- 12kW charging OR a total of +/- 18kWh but not both.
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Too bad Energica lost their dealernetwork in .no when Carpoint lost their deal with Zero and decided to stop..
I wouldn't mind demoing Energica, but not having places to buy parts and perform service is a no go for me at least.
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First and foremost, because this was posted to the Zero sub-forum, I consider this post attention-seeking and inappropriate. I wish Energica enthusiasts wouldn't take up space on Zero forums "negging" on the bikes. They can co-exist just fine serving different parts of the market.
Energica is focused on the track, and Zero is focused on the daily rider. The latter seems more likely to produce a useful motorcycle that can scale in sales and production.
I appreciate this community and especially the open mind-set. So why is that first post inappropriate? It is just a valid Idea of a comparison and food for thought in my opinion.
For me it looks a little different. Energicas main disadvantage was and still is its huge price. Besides that, it seemed to be an extremly powerful and high quality bike above Zeros lineup for several years, until Zero finally matched it with the SR/F. But many people complain, that the SR/F still does not have the capacity (~20KWh) and practical useable charge speed (=ccs) it would need to be Travel- and Autobahn-proof.
For me that is not an issue, because my SR/F's use-case is perfectly covered. I am a daily commuter, but most bikers here in europe make long bike trips or drive day-tours as a hobby.
Technical Solutions that our Zero features (Belt, no gearbox, passive cooling) are interesting and make it unique, but they are not always better or more robust, as sometimes claimed. Liquid cooling for example is inevitable at a certain perfomance level (drivetrain and battery, if cold weather performance is needed) - take a look at the EV-Cages. The maintanance it takes, is minimal.
Chains need a bit more care, but they are extremly reliable and efficient.
All in All Energica more likely shows the way the big OEM will follow, in my opinion.
Nevertheless Zero is extremly innovative and hopefully will keep up with upcoming competition!
Best regards,
Marco
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I liken it to the difference between a Subaru and a McLaren. Sure, the McLaren looks more desirable on paper BUT it won't get you to the office any faster than the Subaru, and you'll never fit a week's worth of groceries for a family of four in that thing...
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I didn't find anything offensive about the OP's post. Whether it was posted here or in the Energica forum, I took it as someone looking for information on the two main options for electric motorcycles. When I was trying to decide which bike to buy, I sought out comparisons as much as possible, it helps a potential buyer to make an informed decision.
As others have said, which bike you go with (SR/F or Energica...probably the EsseEsse9) is really dependent on your needs. I had an SR/F on order precisely for the air cooling and belt drive but after test riding an SR, DSR, SR/F, Eva 107, and EsseEsse9 I decided the riding position and heavier weight of the EsseEsse9 made it a better choice for me and my needs. The chain maintenance isn't a big deal (I'm just lazy, that's why I was looking at the belt driven SR/F) and the fluid changes are on par with my big American twins...again nothing extreme and relatively minor.
After commuting (including lane splitting here in California) on a Victory Cross Country Tour and a Triumph Trophy, the weight of the Energica didn't bother me and I found it more comfortable for the higher speed freeway portions of my commute. The SR/F was the only Zero that I felt comfortable at the "extra-legal" speeds I tend to ride at. As solid as they were, the SR and DSR felt too much like bicycles on steroids.
Since I don't intend on ever modifying the powertrain or motor of my electric motorcycle, that capability never factored into my decision. Even the fast charging on the Energica didn't factor into my buying decision. I've only used it about 3 times now and while I'm glad I have it, I wouldn't miss it if I didn't have it.
To the OP...you really have to go test ride both brands and then decide, factoring in your personal riding needs.
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My general comment is that, while the Energica and SR/F models are really wonderful and full of new and interesting technology, the market really needs lower priced electric motorcycles that will introduce new riders to electric power. Something simple, cheap and reliable, that is functional and fun to ride to convince young people on a budget that EVs are perfect for their local transportation needs. Once they are convinced that riding an EV is fun and inexpensive, then they might very well start looking at and wanting to invest in, a more expensive and capable model. Or like my two granddaughters, never try riding motorcycles or driving a car and take the bus. :(
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I own a 2017 DSR and one of the things I don't quite get is some of the comments I've read on this forum and in reviews of the SR/F, which seem to suggest that anything other than the SR/F in Zero's lineup is less than a complete motorcycle. Comments like "the SR/F feels likes it's made from a whole cloth", as if the other Zero models are just cobbled together afterthoughts. And comments like in this post that "the DSR felt too much like a bicycle on steroids", really?
I also ride a 1997 Honda Valkyrie so I'm used to riding big bikes. I owned a Zero FXS and now a DSR and nothing about them makes me think these are somehow less than real, legitimate motorcycles. I use my DSR mostly for everyday commuting on city/county roads, but I also occasionally take in on the highway and I have complete confidence in it on the highway.
If your looking for a big long distance cruiser in an electric motorcycle then of course you are going to be disappointed. That's not the niche that these bikes are designed for. In that case save yourself some money and buy an ICE bike.
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What HE said!! ^^^
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I stand by my comments. For me, the SR and DSR didn't feel like "motorcycles". While you may feel different, that's my impression riding those bikes when compared to the SR/F and Energicas. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, I'm saying that's my impression of the bikes.
I don't believe anyone in this thread said they were looking for an electric to function as a big touring bike. I only referenced the Victory and Triumph to point out that the weight of the Energicas didn't bother me like it bothers some riders.
The OP asked for thoughts and I provided them.
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+1 Old Zeros are still great fun bikes.
I think some guys really want that wider rear tire and feel if it's not there it's a lesser bike. To each their own.
I feel the Energicas are very much the Ferrari of the EMC world and the Zeros fall into the Camaro (SR) and Corvette (SRF) lines. Cheaper and easier to work on but not quite top specs.
I agree the battery warranty has always been a bit of a red flag for me. There are just a few guys on here with Energicas (though growing) so it's hard to know the long term reliability as most haven't been through 4-5 years of use yet. Makes the used market a bit scary.
The fast charging is great on paper but the stations just aren't out there (outside of CA) and they cost more then gas at this point.
But the biggest deal breaker at this point is just so few dealers. I'm about 8 hours away from one and in the big picture that's pretty close.
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I come to owning a Victory Empulse TT to a 2018 Zero S. I was indeed a feeling I might be downgrading as the Empulse has some great components and handling as a motorcycle. Sport mode first gear acceleration s were great. But I couldn't be more wrong. I went out on a couple of rides or more already and I don't feel anything less. It's even easier to handle because of its lower weight. And the minimalism makes it awesome in every way.
For a context I'm a 140lbs 5'10" guy. So that kind of context also counts for the choice. I really can't possibly handle a 560lbs+ bike, if at all I drop it or so. Used to find it difficult to move the Empulse. Reverse doesn't help with that either 🙂
Also if ur not into really frequent long road trips, DC fast charge may not be as necessary.
Also as for the power and torque figures, Zero S is like a 500cc bike and plenty enough for more than 90% of the needs.
-Shayan
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'On paper' and 'I have experience on a big bike'.
The Energicas are as big and heavy as our old shaft-drive Honda CB Custom. And I did not like pushing that thing! I drove it in a circle once, and that was enough.
I couldn't imagine trying to handle that through the mountains here. My S is often too much ^-^
But there's places and uses for different size bikes. I like that Energica and Zero have different takes on how to get there. There's like, axis here: Road capability, speed capability, and the more of both you add, the bigger the bike gets, which is important to the rider.
And all those capabilities come with costs. Every additional component is more weight, even if it adds more capacity. And more cost!
And that's just the practical aspect before looking at ergonomics.
I might drool at an Energica (and would have before I started riding motorcycles. They're good looking bikes!) but it's like looking at a sports car or race car. They're awesome, but I neither can drive nor should drive one. Let alone afford it. Although they're at least not the price of an Exotic or Taycan!
-Crissa
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To clarify my issue with this thread, what I want is to have this thread be on the General section instead of the Zero 2013+ section.
Posting the Energica news here as a breakthrough and asking for a comparison is targeting Zero owners instead of getting it off the sub forum into the general discussion.
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The fast charging is great on paper but the stations just aren't out there (outside of CA) and they cost more then gas at this point.
It helps a lot to not charge to 100%, when possible. It can then be cheaper than gas. You want to charge when you're getting the most KW per minute as most of the CCS chargers charge by the minute. Don't charge past 80% unless you have to.
I can recharge one time and make it to Auburn, CA from Reno,NV if I charge near the summit to 100%. 99 miles total trip.
Or I can charge to 80% in Truckee, CA and 80% again past the summit on I-80 and save a few bucks and minutes. Yeah, also saves time! The wait at each charger twice is significantly less than one full charge.
But we also have to consider a few places, such as the HD dealer CCS chargers are free (at least for now).
And here in Reno, it's 11.7 cents per KWH to charge my 11.7KWH battery. That's a lot cheaper than gasoline. Full "tank" for a $1.37.
Yeah, going east past Fallon would be a hassle. But it's getting better. There are now CCS chargers in Fernley and Fallon. Going east of there would be a problem, such as trying to get to Salt Lake City even on our major freeway (I-80).
But I expect such to change in the next year or so.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have extensive experience (2+ years daily driver) riding Zeroes and I've owned an Energica SS9 for a few weeks, putting nearly 3k miles on it already. I actually wrote up a blog about it after my first road trip (https://www.electric.motorcycles/post/i-sold-all-my-zeroes-and-got-an-energica-ss9-then-i-went-for-a-ride). I will be writing a followup blog shortly because I took another road trip twice as long immediately after. I'll just summarize some key points that are MY PERSONAL thoughts/feelings on the bikes.
- I am an unrepentant fast-charge addict. That's why I had 13.2kW of charging on my Zero SR with Power Tank. I used to be happy with that. Now, with DC fast charging, if I see 13kW it means I'm almost full and it's time to unplug. The fastest I could go with a Zero is now unacceptably slow with my Energica because I can get 20+kW all day.
- I prefer the sound of the Zero
- I miss having regen tied to the brake lever of the Zero. Energica's regen is tied to throttle positioning and is potentially much stronger, but I really liked the brake lever.
- The fit and finish on the Energicas, and the components, are very high quality. The bikes look as pretty on the inside as they do on the outside.
- I feel guilty doing short trips on the Energica. On our property we often commute from the workshop to the house, and growing up that was a task accomplished with Honda CT110s. My brother uses his FXS for that and that feels fine, but the Energica seems like ridiculous overkill. I kinda want one of those new Cake Osas announced at EICMA to be honest.
- Handling on the Energica is far superior
The thing to remember, and I've said this before, is that Zero's bread and butter has historically been the commuter market. It's people who commute to work, plug in, ride home, and then plug in at their garage. There are plenty of people that do this and are deliriously happy to do this. Zero EXCELS in the commuter market. I firmly believe the FXS is the best urban commuter bike available today, and everyone should have one or at least ride one for a bit. Phenomenal machines. Energica, on the other hand, is targeting the sport bike crowd. I get the impression they don't want to see themselves as a competitor for Zero, but as a competitor for Ducati.
There is plenty of room in the market for both companies. In the end, get the bike that fits your needs. My needs are fast charging, and where I live the network is robust enough to support my needs. The choice, therefore, is clear for me. Zero will have to embrace CCS at some point. They know this. They're not stupid. I would be shocked if there wasn't some sort of announcement from Zero about CCS support in the next 6 months.
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They know this. They're not stupid. I would be shocked if there wasn't some sort of announcement from Zero about CCS support in the next 6 months.
That will mean a totally redesigned bike that accepts almost three times the voltage. I kinda doubt Zero will make such a major change any time soon.
BTW, I also like the braking regen of the Zeros. But it seems to me, for whatever reason, only the cheaper vehicles have such. Not my Energica or my Tesla has any regen increase with the brake. However, they have a lot more deceleration regen even at minimum than the Zeros at 100%.
-Don- Reno, NV
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We've already heard that their TT bike used higher voltage battery pack.
It just depends on whether their version-three software or hardware could manage the high voltage battery. It might not be as big a change as you think if they've been looking ahead.
Personally, I only need to charge if I go to San Jose or take the highway. Honestly, I've never even really ridden that far, and I rarely even drive that far. Once a month I go to Oakland and twice a month my spouse goes to SF. Those are technically in my Zero's range, but it'd be so grueling.
Right now I only have to plug it in once every three trips to Santa Cruz. I only use from 25% SoC on the ride up and down 9. That's what, a half-hour commute?
-Crissa
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Right now I only have to plug it in once every three trips to Santa Cruz. I only use from 25% SoC on the ride up and down 9. That's what, a half-hour commute?
Do you ever visit Re-Cycle Garage in Santa Cruz on Sundays? I'll be there. We have fun and kick tires and tell bullshit stories. Misfits are good folk.
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Hello
After the update of Energica the Zero SR/F has a hard time in Europe and especially in Germany. Same price as the 12KW Zero and CCS which is massively expanded in Europe. In Germany the system is already area-wide and is further massively brewed by the government /car manufacturers and Discountern.
If the 21kW battery is also recharged by 20-80% in 20 minutes, the breakthrough for an electric motorcycle from Energica has been achieved.
With this an important market for Zero will break away and CCS is not only becoming more and more accepted in Europe. ;D
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Not sure where (maybe video from newzeroland?) someone haven ridden both said that he originally thought zero had very positive range numbers which are hard to achieve. But was surprised to find out that energica's numbers were even less realistic.
The energica battery is 1,5 the 14,4 KWh pack of zero. Zero in optimal conditions (Read as city in eco mode) promises a range of 259 km. x1,5 that is 388,5 km, not the 400 km they claim. Also zero so far has been known to get better range.
I'll do a test ride for sure. Requested one but since there is only a single exclusive dealer here in BE for energica all depends on their customer service. For zero we have way more dealers. I eventually ordered at the second one I entered just because they gave a better first impression.
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The extra weight of the Energicas means they are less efficient for each kWh of battery used. But I haven't seen any posts complaining about Energicas not doing what they claimed they could do. Unless otherwise shown I'll say the bikes will do (close to) the numbers they give.
Lightning on the other hand...
Also does anyone know if they upped the AC charger to 6kW or still just 3kW?
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That's the beauty of over 20kW! ;D
The efficiency can be neglected one has enough and with CCS also quickly recharged. Perfect for a motorcycle
So you can concentrate on the performance
The motor and battery are cooled so no overheating of the components as with Zero. It also has the advantage that I can always charge quickly. I am curious once how the Zero behaves with the 12kW charger if it is charged several times in a day.
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Oh for sure that big new battery is a wonderful thing.
The CCS charging "should" be a wonderful thing. Real world long term data just isn't there yet so I'm hoping it works and no battery issues come from it (Nissan's rapidgate [no heat management, I know]).
For the record neither of my Zeros have ever hit a thermal warning. I never toured or raced or even charged it over 3kw which are the normal triggers, but they are in Atlanta heat with no issues ridden around the speed limit of sub interstate roads.
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The OP created this thread for expressing enthusiasm for Energica on a Zero sub-forum. I really don’t think this is appropriate. Let’s move the thread to the general section.
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For the record neither of my Zeros have ever hit a thermal warning. I never toured or raced or even charged it over 3kw which are the normal triggers, but they are in Atlanta heat with no issues ridden around the speed limit of sub interstate roads.
Oh, I did. But my SR was charging at 13.2kW. That'll warm the battery right up after a few back to back ride-->charge sequences.
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Yeah MVetter you and Brandon aren't afraid to find where the limits are. ;)
BrianTRice, I think they just wanted the most people to chime in. The 13+ Zero section gets the most views by far.
I'm fine if it's moved or not but I don't think it was meant to demean Zero.
I am glad to see the new battery and hope other companies will follow or do even better. For me both the Energicas and CCS charging itself are in the same boat. Sounds great but they're not close enough for me to use. I'm happy for those that they work for but they are a no go for me and I will continue to enjoy my Zeros.
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For me both the Energicas and CCS charging itself are in the same boat. Sounds great but they're not close enough for me to use. I'm happy for those that they work for but they are a no go for me and I will continue to enjoy my Zeros.
Do you ever recharge your Zero on the road?
The Energica can also charge with J-1772 direct (at 3 KW) or even 120 VAC with the supplied cable.
I have my SS9 in the LPR (Long Period Rest) mode with 120 VAC right now, as I probably will not head home for a couple of months. But it can fully charge with the same supplied cable at around 1.5 KW. LPR mode just keeps it at 85% SOC or whatever and keeps the batteries balanced.
-Don- Williams, AZ (RV with my Zero DS)
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Yeah, but your SS9 is nearly twice the weight of my Zero.
Aside from scooters, the only other real motorcycle I've ridden was a giant like that. It was really unenjoyable. I can see how it works on the freeway... But I almost never do that, even in a car. Like, once a month or so. So handling all the weight would be too much for how I ride.
The extra expense... Well, I've spent alot less on my bike because it doesn't have those expensive features. It'd be nice if my bike was all smart like that, but that costs money ^-^
-Crissa
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DonTom no I haven't. I just have picked up an adapter to use J1772 but that may wait till spring now. I talked to Charge Point but most still want to bill by the hour which is a kick in the wallet with a 1.3 kW charger.
They have some stations at work but at .75 an hour it's high based on the fact I don't "need" it to use back roads. If I went interstate I would. I guess my 17 would shut off the station at 100% SOC by opening the contactor but the 13 may just keep trying to balance for 8 hours. I could go .50 per kWh which should still be a profit for them but I'd need a charge tank at minimum just to drop the time.
I posted before I saw your route on google maps. It would be like a different planet from the GA country sides I ride but I see how you hop from station to station and it works for you. I ride in an area with almost no gas stations and no charging at all. Maybe a fire station would let me use their wall outlet if I was stuck.
Again my nearest Energica dealer would be like 7 hours away. If I had a problem I'd be kicking myself for putting myself in that predicament. Also I'll be honest a $20k bike wouldn't happen. I'd have to have a used one in a few years at best.
For me they are like the Teslas and the Rivians, I'm glad they exist but they are out of my league.
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The extra expense... Well, I've spent alot less on my bike because it doesn't have those expensive features. It'd be nice if my bike was all smart like that, but that costs money ^-^
A new SR with a Charge Tank is $18k
The Premium SR/F is $21.5k
A lot of these models are priced very similarly, and people tend to forget that. Probably because the LiveWire is a ridiculous $30k.
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DonTom no I haven't. I just have picked up an adapter to use J1772 but that may wait till spring now.
In the Reno, NV and Auburn, CA area, almost every J1772 is free to use all day. But some do charge to charge in the tourist trap areas, such as Truckee, CA. But it is cheaper to charge than it is to park in some of these same areas! They have no parking fees to charge.
I talked to Charge Point but most still want to bill by the hour which is a kick in the wallet with a 1.3 kW charger.
Do you have any quick chargers? You can buy "Y" cables and use them, but a much better safer idea is to by your J1772 from Tucson EV (http://tucsonev.com/) that has all the outputs you want and are rated much higher than the one Zero sells. Look down the page for "J1772 To Zero Adapter".
-Don- Williams, AZ (RV)
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The extra expense... Well, I've spent alot less on my bike because it doesn't have those expensive features. It'd be nice if my bike was all smart like that, but that costs money ^-^
A lot of these models are priced very similarly, and people tend to forget that. Probably because the LiveWire is a ridiculous $30k.
And an S is $11K new, and mine cost $6K.
No one is going to be selling me an Energica for that!
-Crissa
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And if the type of bike is not to your liking no one should be trying to push you into it. It sounds like you primarily are interested in short range commuting. Zero is perfect for that.
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And if the type of bike is not to your liking no one should be trying to push you into it. It sounds like you primarily are interested in short range commuting. Zero is perfect for that.
That's mainly what I use my Zeros for.
I find my Zero DS ZF 6.5 to be the most handy bike of all. I have it with me now on my RV hitch. It rides itself up the ramp on the hitch making it very easy to load and take off the ramp. (http://www.addabike.com/ABHOMEPAGE.html)
I like the Energica more for the freeway, such as Reno to Auburn and back. But I have also done that trip on my Zero SR several times. The SS9 is more comfy for a longer trip.
-Don- Williams, AZ
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I see it the same way
The Zero is just a vehicle for the way to work,scooter or something.
I also drove the new SR/F and have to say that it is a real improvement compared to the old Zeros. But she can't touch an Energica EsseEsse9. Neither of the performance, road holding and workmanship quality.
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I think someone (Brian?) pointed this out: Although both Zero and Energica warranty their bikes for two years, unlimited miles, Energica only warranties their batteries for three years or 31,000 miles (whichever comes first). That is a BIG red flag for me. It sounds like Zero has a lot more faith in their battery technology than does Energica. Considering the cost of the battery is almost 50% the cost of the bike itself, I'd definitely hesitate on that alone.
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It sounds like Zero has a lot more faith in their battery technology than does Energica.
Eh, maybe not. It might just be a business decision. The more coverage they provide, the more it costs. Even if things are reliable and warranty repairs are rare, they do add up.
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A lifetime of experience tells me "Italian" and "Reliable" are rarely used together in the same sentence...
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DonTom I do have one quiq charger that I use at home. I don't think I'd like to take one and surely not multiple chargers with me on the bike. I guess long touring rides are just something I've never done so I don't miss it. Thanks for the link though, I've read about your Y charger setup and it sounds great. I don't have a home J1772 plug so the two circuit outlets are all I have to use in my garage and laundry room.
DonTom your in a good place in life and it sounds like your enjoying the success you'd earned, but I'm a blue collar southern guy and even a few hundred dollars makes me perk up and pay attention to what I get for it. I love the way these bikes ride but I doubt I'd ever be in a position to just pack up and tour. Truth be told it's hard to justify having two bikes when GA hits me up for $200 a piece per year. It's nice having a backup though.
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A lifetime of experience tells me "Italian" and "Reliable" are rarely used together in the same sentence...
That may be true, but you and I are also old enough to remember when "made in Japan" meant "piece of crap". The only constant in life is change.
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I also have one sort of followup question for the people who are influenced heavily by the warranties as written, and it's potentially a very touchy question that may stir up a hornet's nest. It is not intended to cause drama; it is just meant to make people engage their brains on this topic. My phrasing is meant to be very diplomatic, so I'll be choosing my words carefully.
All bikes are eventually going to have some sort of problems. There have been Zeroes with part failures. There have been Energicas with part failures. Some of us here have experienced it firsthand, and some of us just read others' stories. For those of us who have read lots of other people's stories about part failures and warranty repairs, here is my question:
"How would you rate the process of getting Zero to honor a battery warranty claim?"
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Back in 1998 or thereabouts, BMW changed their warranty terms from "Three years, unlimited mileage" to "Three years or 36,000 miles, whichever came first." Back then (and to this day) I average around 15,000 miles a year on two wheels so I would've exhausted the warranty terms in less than three years. I bought my K1200LT brand new in 1999. In 2001, I suffered a rear bearing failure with 41,000 miles on the odometer (outside the warranty). FORTUNATELY this was a very common failure and BMW repaired it free of charge anyway.
Fast forward to today and BMWs are NOT what they used to be. They rank at the bottom of Consumer Reports' reliability rankings. I had an engine failure on my 2013 BMW C650GT on a part that was replaced due to a recall. That part WAS replaced, but it failed anyway. Since it was two years out of warranty, BMW wouldn't do a DAMNED thing for me (not even give me a break on the $4,000.00 price tag of a new engine). That's when I told them they could go pound sand and I will NEVER buy another BMW vehicle (no matter how many wheels it has) as long as I live. Brand loyalty is built up over years and killed in an instant. The irony is I had JUST gotten my 400,000 mile medallion from them.
The K1200LT is still going strong, but BMW doesn't build them like that anymore. The foreshadowing was when they limited their warranty coverage. They don't WANT people who want to keep a machine running; they want those people with enough disposable income to keep buying a new bike every three or four years and that AIN'T me.
I look at product warranties now as an indication of how much faith a company has in their product. Yamaha warranties their big touring bikes for FIVE years, unlimited mileage. They are also the most highly rated brand in the Consumer Reports ranking I mentioned above so there is a correlation.
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Well as far as I know my 13 battery issue started the 13 recall. In 2015 Zero's response was nothing short of fantastic. They shipped it across the country, replaced the battery, and shipped it back with a new charge cord for free. It's a bigger company now with much more sales.
Also being diplomatic and tip toeing. I had wished, and tried to post it as much as I could, that Zero use a certain company as their supplier for their onboard charges as a solution to the weakest points on the bikes. I know that didn't happen for reasons that were unknown to me at the time. I still wish a further look could be taken with a more teamwork approach between the two parties but I understand if that just can't be the case.
Two points on Energica at this time.
First Energica is just a small part of a much bigger Italian company with a guarded reputation for high quality products. If an issue did pop up I'd expect them to do what is needed to fix it, money be damned (to a degree).
Second their sales numbers are likely about what Zero's were 13-15 so more attention can be given to the bikes that have been sold.
As their numbers get bigger and bigger the ability to hand hold each customer through an issue will become less likely.
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The Yamaha was my spouse's first choice; we ended up with a Ducati because of price.
Get that weight down, Energica, and maybe I can convince my spouse. ...But they have several years to do it ^-^
-Crissa
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Get that weight down, Energica, and maybe I can convince my spouse. But they have several years to do it ^-^
To me it depends on what they do to reduce the weight. If the bike becomes less stable or is built cheaper, I would rather have the weight as it is even at the cost of some range.
Since the Energica has a reverse and slow forward, often the weight is less of an issue.
I wish my 1,000 lbs Harley had a reverse!
As is, the SS9 has such a rock stable feel to it at any speed. I have had it well over 100 MPH a few times. BTW, I mean as in real speed as on my GPS. All of my European bikes read around 10 MPH high above 100 MPH.
USA made stuff is a lot more accurate. Zeros and Harley's are usually right on (within 1 MPH of my GPS at freeway speeds).
-Don- Payson, AZ (RV)
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If she can't pick it up, she isn't buying it. Doesn't matter how stable it is at speed. She already had a 600-lb bike, and won't consider another one over 500 now.
-Crissa
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhUj7EJhZiE
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Not really applicable in the mountains or when the bike falls on you, but thanks.
-Crissa
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A lifetime of experience tells me "Italian" and "Reliable" are rarely used together in the same sentence...
Did Energica also play with the lives and homes of its customers for years although they knew that the battery was not safe?! Only after a few fires that could have been quite different was a buy-back initiated. >:(
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European here, Dutchie to be precise. Been riding my DSR '16 almost every day as commuter, logging about 45kkm (Or 28k miles, whatever floats your boat) of somewhat effortless driving.
Touring is a different thing altogether. I have 3,8kW on-board (1,3kW slow and 2,5kW charge tank) and 3,6kW off-board with a homebrew Mennekes adapter and two 1.8kW PSU's, and I find myself every 180km at the chargepont for at least 40 minutes to get to 80%.
The price for the Zero SR/F with two-phase 12kW AC charging is 23k euro here, and the Energica Eva with 21kW battery and dc CCS is the same.
My bike will be ready for replacement in about 1,5 years, and if this situation stays the same I think it's a no-brainer. The Energica takes me further and charges faster for the same money. Unless she handles like an absolute pig, it's going to be the Energica. I found with my car that CSS fast charging is a game changer, I get in and out of a (super)charger in 15 minutes tops making longer trips a breeze. Too bad Zero stopped the fast-charger path in 2013... CCS is abundant in my part of Europe.
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The lack of build-out for Level 2 charging and the switch to public charging being mostly CCS is also going to change the landscape.
Whole Foods (as an example) are no longer building lots with Level 2 chargers. Just CCS and CHAdeMO anymore.
This thing where 1-5% of parking spots are energized in some way will just mean more chargers will just be swapped out for the faster instead of more slower chargers.
That said, the fast chargers are more expensive on the bike. So I understand why Zero has avoided it so far.
-Crissa
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Not the same price. Vat excluded for energica so in BE it's +21% more expensive than the srf premium.
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Yet another opinion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZPvbi9A1ww
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The lack of build-out for Level 2 charging and the switch to public charging being mostly CCS is also going to change the landscape.
CCS density tapers rapidly as you get outside of (say) California, whereas any campground with 220V plugs is capable of a reasonable Level 2 AC charge.
Whole Foods and CCS do go together, though, in terms of the pricing. I've avoided the former, and wouldn't use the latter unless necessary.
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CCS density tapers rapidly as you get outside of (say) California, whereas any campground with 220V plugs is capable of a reasonable Level 2 AC charge.
Existing infrastructure is not predictive of future infrastructure investments, tho.
For everyone to have short-range vehicles, we'd need to be increasing the number of level two chargers... But instead we're getting more fast-chargers because they don't cost all that much more to install. The majority of the install cost is still the utility and labor and the profit - if any - is in KW. So that favors future infrastructure being all fast-chargers not slow ones.
-Crissa
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The need for CCS depends on long distance travel, but long distance EV bike trips are currently a tiny niche market for die-hards, so... :)
Fast chargers belong on or near state highways and interstate corridors, while L2 belongs at commute destinations such as homes, schools and office parking lots. Whatever else there is, meh, take it or leave it. The L2 chargers popping up in shopping centers and malls like Valley Fair can be expensive and have limited practicality.
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So L2s at the mall (a destination) are impractical, but L2s belong at destinations. Fast charging is for long distance travel, but are being installed at grocery stores.
I mean, sure?
-Crissa
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So L2s at the mall (a destination) are impractical, but L2s belong at destinations. Fast charging is for long distance travel, but are being installed at grocery stores.
Yes, and I realized this after getting an EV car in March. When going to the mall or grocery store (even movie theater), plugging in is extremely low priority. Those are not commute destinations, and when arriving the car will rarely be low on charge. Maybe it matters to someone who has no place to plug in at home or work, but then they're also die-hards. And when attempting to make a road trip, fast chargers are a necessity unless the trip is allowed to take 3x longer with overnight stays. Tesla is the best case, but still not convenient. When someone manages to drive an EV a thousand miles they feel impressed enough to post a YouTube video about it.
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Yet another opinion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZPvbi9A1ww
jesus
There are so many flaws with the things said in this video
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Let's be honest for once!
The Zero SR/F was developed exclusively for the USA. Whether the sales figures in this country will ensure the survival of Zero remains to be seen.
As far as the battery warranty is concerned, it is so that the motor was the limiting factor until now and the battery has not yet been properly demanded. That might not be now with the SR/F any more the case above all in Germany not. Also the auxiliary chargers of the 12KW Zero must show first of all that they are not as susceptible as the present ones.
A higher voltage simply preserves the components that is simply so!!!!
Zero has neither the money nor the competence to go this way. :P
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Hmmm where to start.
Ok MVetter, yes the video was too early since the new battery makes a huge difference. I haven't seen one of these motorcycle review guys get the power tank OR charge tank options right yet. It's 200 miles city range OR 1 hour charging not both.
There are posts in the Energica section that do seem to show a price increase for the bigger battery which I figured would have to be the case. But the Ego and the SS9 can still get the smaller battery for the same price as now as far as I can tell.
Talking about charging stations:
I looked at the J1772 6kw charging stations as a business model and they fail completely. Sadly in the U.S. (which is all I'm talking about) this is all our homes can give for now so it won't just die off like I'd like for it to do. Let me assure you as I work with blue collar 40 hour work week people, they are not going to wait more than 15 minuets to "refill" their cars on trips. It has to be as good as gas or better to get them onboard. Even CCS isn't good enough for that so I hope there isn't too much build up of those stations before better charging comes out.
Tesla's new V3 charging and Porsche's 350 kW chargers are getting close but the batteries' C rate will need to improve to eliminate the tapering at 80-85%. People will feel they are leaving 20% of the battery they paid for on the table, wasted. Audi is tricking people with that bypass strategy of only ever giving them access to 80% of their battery capacity so no tapering. I just don't want to see wasted money on stations that will be obsolete in a few years.
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I don't know... my 2019 Yamaha XMAX gets 70 mpg on the highway and only requires about 3.3 gallons of fuel, so that's over 200 miles on a three minute gas station stop. Electrics are a LONG way from that. Until then, 6kW charging at a shopping mall is fine... it may take an hour for the bike to go another sixty miles BUT I have something to do to kill the time at the mall. If I take in a movie, I can even get a 100% charge. Not a bad deal for a leisurely joy ride. For us "40 hour a week" guys, I don't REALLY need more than Level 1 charging because I'm going to be sitting at my desk for eight hours anyway.
When the weather warms up again in the Spring I'm already connecting the dots for an "Around Long Island" ride on my Zero. There are enough Level2 statoins around to make that possible. Most of them are in shopping malls; the one on Shelter Island is at a police station so I need to see what is in the area to kill time there.
Right now, electric motorcycles are simply not practical as "only bikes" unless you are really really dedicated and willing to make compromises. As I've pointed out before, though, for over 90% of the riding I actually do, the Zero is perfectly capable and it save a lot of wear and tear on my ICE bikes to boot.
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For our bikes they work, but not for big battery 60+kWh cars. The hope is people move to electric cars. The guys I talk to about it always bring up "trips". They shrug off "it works for work" they focus on their free time fun time. These are not desk people, but there are more non desk then desk people and if only a few rich guys drive electric it won't change anything and we won't get the true economy of scale.
To be sure 110V < J1772 < CCS < V3 < ? the last bit should be about "good enough" and then the big switch can begin.
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Talking about charging stations:
I looked at the J1772 6kw charging stations as a business model and they fail completely. Sadly in the U.S. (which is all I'm talking about) this is all our homes can give for now so it won't just die off like I'd like for it to do.
What are you talking about? A 50 amp plug, which is what most homes have, is perfectly capable of delivering 12kW.
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I should have said "do" give not can give. A Nima 14-50 outlet is of course extra and homes don't "have" them , people have them installed and they are not always available for older homes. Now CA maybe, but not here, my highest breaker is 40 amps. My parents 40 amp dryer outlet is on the second floor so no good to charge from in the garage.
It still puts you needing a 12kW AC charger for home use then a CCS for trips. Energica is still going with a 3kW AC charger instead of a higher AC option for cost savings, weight savings, and they figure you will only use the AC charger at home with all night to charge anyway.
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Or you could use a portable CCS station that plugs into a 14-50 and then power any EV that uses CCS.
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8) Nice product plug. Cost? Ready to go?
I still want all charging guts to be at the station and it just feeds into the battery directly. Instead of 1000 EVs having chargers that can die and owners have to pay for, everybody shares the components at the station. In the same way gas cars don't pump the gas from the under ground storage tanks the station handles that expense. The station should have all that's needed and it just "fills" our batteries.
You guys are bridging the gaps and I applaud your work but the world still isn't quite ready for mass EV adoption. It is getting better all the time though.
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8) Nice product plug. Cost? Ready to go?
I still want all charging guts to be at the station and it just feeds into the battery directly. Instead of 1000 EVs having chargers that can die and owners have to pay for, everybody shares the components at the station. In the same way gas cars don't pump the gas from the under ground storage tanks the station handles that expense. The station should have all that's needed and it just "fills" our batteries.
You guys are bridging the gaps and I applaud your work but the world still isn't quite ready for mass EV adoption. It is getting better all the time though.
As it is now if my Energica built-in charger dies, I should still be able to use CCS fast charging. So why not have both? Besides, by far, most people charge at home.
-Don- Payson, AZ (RV)
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Or you could use a portable CCS station that plugs into a 14-50 and then power any EV that uses CCS.
I don't understand what a "portable CCS station" is.
Since CCS can also use J1772, what is the purpose of the portable CCS station? You're still limited by the power limits of the 14-50 and you're not going to get the 26KW that the Energica can handle.
-Don- Payson AZ (RV)
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So if you have a battery with a high enough voltage then all you need is the CCS plug inlet connected to your battery to use a CCS station?
I'm asking not being snarky.
DonTom : That's what Brandon and MVetter are working on now. Energica will use them in their races at tracks that don't have CCS chargers. Plus Harley guys won't have to go to the Dealer to charge faster than 1.3kw.
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DonTom : That's what Brandon and MVetter are working on now. Energica will use them in their races at tracks that don't have CCS chargers. Plus Harley guys won't have to go to the Dealer to charge faster than 1.3kw.
Oh. It's to get over the mickey-mouse limit of the HD built-in charger. IOW, a way to charge at a few KWs by using DC direct to the CCS input but at a much lower rate than the CCS was really designed for.
I wonder why HD didn't equip the LW with a decent L2 charger to begin with. Energicas charge at 3Kw on L2.
-Don- Payson, AZ (RV)
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I am cooking with gas in California and all of my electrical outlets are 120V, 20 amp.
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I am cooking with gas in California and all of my electrical outlets are 120V, 20 amp.
For home charging, 120 VAC is usually fine. At least for night charging.
But there are times on the road where you may not find anything nearby other than a J-1772. That takes too long as it is, but twice as long on a LW than on an Energica.
IMO, it's silly to have a charger than reduces the current as the voltage increases, as the LWs and Zeros (other than the SR/F) do. If the AC power is available, the bike should be designed to be able to use it. Especially with the 30K$ LW.
-Don- Payson, AZ (RV)
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Anyone with a 250v dryer, oven, or RV outlet (so electric-focused built houses) would have the wiring for that. Even mine does, though I doubt it's ever been used.
-Crissa
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You never use your oven?
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I have a dryer outlet.
My oven is propane.
-Crissa
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Everything in my home is powered by gas - including me. ;D
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On mornings like today, I feel ya.
We have propane stove, water heater, furnace, and... generator.
-Crissa
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My hope is that Zero will now delay their battery tank option for the SR/F to redesign it and announce a 7.2 kWh version later next year instead of their usual 3.6 kWh offering. Then they will catch up again with Energica (at least to the point they were before EICMA announcements, that is except for fast charging).
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My hope is that Zero will now delay their battery tank option for the SR/F to redesign it and announce a 7.2 kWh version later next year instead of their usual 3.6 kWh offering. Then they will catch up again with Energica (at least to the point they were before EICMA announcements, that is except for fast charging).
If literally doubling the battery density in the same space were that simple, surely they wouldn't leave it solely to the Power Tank. They'd double the monolith to be 28.8kWh and offer a 7.2kWh power tank on top for a 36kWh offering. And the FX line would have a 14.4 long brick which would make it one of the most desirable bikes in the world in my opinion.
Generally, Zero has smaller, but more frequent battery updates. I wouldn't be surprised if the next upgrade is something around a 64Ah long brick meaning a 128Ah monolith to replace the current 114Ah unit. Probably advertised at around 16kWh. Just a guess on my part, though.
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Everything in my home is powered by gas - including me. ;D
Most people run on booze:
A recent study found that the average American walks about 900 miles a year.
Another study found that Americans drink, on average, 22 gallons of alcohol a year.
That means, on the average, Americans get around 41 miles to the gallon.
-Don- Payson, AZ (RV)
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MWetter quote: And the FX line would have a 14.4 long brick which would make it one of the most desirable bikes in the world in my opinion.
You are correct sir! I hope I live to see it.