ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Apriliarsv on September 25, 2019, 04:45:06 AM
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This is crazy. I bet the first half dozen factory test riders retired after seeing this.
https://canadamotoguide.com/2019/09/20/check-out-kawasakis-trippy-take-on-a-future-motorcycle/?fbclid=IwAR17O8tFNZEsPF0zfG0xSw0MwQh_kxzR1nLhyQgV0u2D-TavVwVbWqfpBXU
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Wow! That is weird. I bet it is something that a government regulator would love. ::)
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Sounds like a way to manage the dual-motor design ala the bike from Akira.
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The bike is actually turned by leaning, not counter-steering. An onboard sensor array determines how far over the rider is leaned, and uses that to then twist the front wheel lower and the rear wheel higher, which makes the bike turn around a corner.
I’m willing to try it if they changed the steering Input to counter-steering or at least had the input selectable (lean/counter-steer).
Fly by wire steering seems intrinsically wrong tho.
I hope there’s a non electronic backup.
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If you tilt a bike, it turns, with or without the handlebars turning, because the bike's weight rides up the side of the torus of the tire.
So there's no need for the electronic counter/extra balance tilt to just turn, the electronics just accentuates the turning. It'd be like power steering in a car, it still turns without it, it's just a bear.
I may be new to riding, but I know the physics! Counter-steering is merely triggering the bike to unbalance into a lean for us. But it uses up rotation and balance to do it. Being able to use mechanical muscles could be more efficient for speed, if weird.
-Crissa
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Go ahead and weld the neck and make the bike turn.
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*sigh*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgUOOwnZcDU
I hate that it's called countersteering, since there's so little actual steering involved. The best part is at 1:30 when he's using a single wheel to demonstrate.
This is why motorcycles use regular toruses - tires with a circular cross section - for their tires.
If you were to lock your steering and tilt the bike over onto its side, the move it forward, it will rotate around a point on the ground based upon the angle of the lean. Try it while you're walking your bike if you have a particularly light one. It'll make you look pretty smart as you park, tho risks capsizing.
-Crissa
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*sigh*
I hate that it's called countersteering,......
This is why motorcycles use regular toruses - tires with a circular cross section - for their tires.
……...
-Crissa
Basically on a street bike at perhaps 15mph and more it is counter steer because I would push on the opposite bar end as I would at 1mph to turn. That forces the front wheel out and the bike leans over. Then due to the fact the tire circumference is larger in the center the bike actually turns. This is the old way of explaining it. Maybe the truth can be some of both, seems some of this is missing from the video.
I am not sure how I turn at say 25 mph off road with knobby tires but definitely steer normal as opposed to counter at any speeds a foot might be put down.
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I am not sure how I turn at say 25 mph off road with knobby tires but definitely steer normal as opposed to counter at any speeds a foot might be put down.
At certain speeds and turning radii there isn't enough angular momentum to overcome gravity, this is true. But perhaps with robotic reflexes that will be less of an issue.
The countersteer is really just a moment of using the wheel's natural gyroscopic force to make the bike fall to the angle you want for the turn. Then once in the angle you begin to turn but the wheel wants to return to the path of motion as it completes its spin. So when leaning, you're doing some amount of the turn merely by the conical angle of the tires as you rotate around the circular cross-section. Turning the actual handlebars is not strictly necessary to turn... But you can use it to roll into or out of the turning angle. Merely tilting the wheels would do the same, such as in this Kawasaki model.
I chose the video for the diagrams and models rather than the voice-over.
I can't say if the Kawasaki would be enjoyable to ride; it has taken pilots years to get used to pressure-based side-stick HOTAS fly-by-wire systems, so I assume the same in any new driving or riding control scheme. The system we have today wasn't born all at once!
-Crissa
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(https://i.imgur.com/XwBw5H8.jpg)
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If you tilt a bike, it turns, with or without the handlebars turning
.........
I practice this most every days afternoon commute as I slog along a particular downhill section of a Santa Monica Mountain canyon in traffic.
(Traffic is relative, about 30-40mph)
I may be new to riding, but I know the physics! Counter-steering is merely triggering the bike to unbalance into a lean for us...........
Being able to use mechanical muscles could be more efficient for speed, if weird.
-Crissa
Look at the ridding position in the two diagrams.
Can you see yourself ridding in this fashion 100%?
The system that Kawasaki proposes likely has advantages in certain circumstances but I’m not convinced it will work (at least for me) for what I need in a two wheeler.
On occasions I‘ve taken my DSR off road.
Can you see yourself doing this with this setup?
Extra high speed around a closed racecourse?
Ok, now your talking.
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Well, since the wheels tilt more than the rider, this should allow the rider to access rtighter tilt-turns than their lean indicates, and hence, not risk capsizing inside the turn at low speed.
I have no idea if it'll work! But I love seeing new techniques tried and then tried again when base technology changes. Don't you?
-Crissa
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I'm still trying to figure out what problem this solution is supposed to solve. Shorter learning curve for the operator? That's hard to imagine since almost all kids learn how to ride bicycles, so countersteering is already pretty well-ingrained to just about every beginning motorcyclist.
I was thinking along the lines of Crissa, that maybe there's a reduced lean angle for a given turn radius, which would help keep things from grinding on the ground in tight turns, but I don't think that's true. The front wheel does lean harder into the curve than the bike, but the rear wheel leans less. And fundamentally, if the force vector determined by the weight of the bike+rider and the centripetal force of the turn doesn't go through the center of gravity of the bike+rider and the tire contact patch with the road, the bike is going to high-side or low-side. The bike's need to lean into the corner isn't affected. And I'd worry about the extreme lean angle of that front tire, as well....in a sharp turn, that front wheel is going to be nearly horizontal. Conventional motorcycle tires aren't designed for that.
Maybe it's less likely to crash since the rider doesn't have to coordinate lean angle and countersteer? That seems like a non-issue to me, as well. Given a competent rider, that's a very uncommon source of motorcycle accidents.
Dunno. I'm thinking this really is the result of someone over-thinking some not-really-a-problem issue. It does mention the lack of a need for countersteer, so maybe that really is the goal.
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........
I have no idea if it'll work! But I love seeing new techniques tried and then tried again when base technology changes. Don't you?
-Crissa
Sure but careful what you wish.....
https://www.cio.com/article/2387382/does-technology-makes-us-smarter-or-dumber-.html
I see this setup helping at extremely high speeds (closed track) we’re leaning/load shifting is not only beneficial but imperative.
I’m not sure about complexity cost benefit/justification for an everyday ride tho.