ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: siai47 on September 17, 2019, 06:34:23 PM
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I have noticed on my SR/F that the brake light does not illuminate when slowing down using regenerative braking. The SR/F is almost capable of coming to a complete stop when you are in the ECO mode. The only time you need to apply the service brake is to come to a complete stop. Adding the stopping power of the mechanical brakes (to illuminate the brake light) combined with the regenerative braking doesn't get you smooth stop--more like an abrupt stop. I used to ride in town in the ECO mode because I like the "one pedal driving" (to use an EV term) which allows deceleration control by only using the twist grip "throttle". I have now switched to the street mode to reduce regeneration and allow an easier application of the mechanical brakes. The way the SR/F is set up now, you are likely to be rear ended by someone who didn't know you were stopping because of the lack of a stop lamp.
Most EV's I have owned and many hybrids, including cars with adaptive cruise control, will turn on the brake lights when regenerative brake levels reach a certain threshold. I know for a fact the Tesla's do it as my prior car and the one I have now does it. I know the Chevy Bolt and Volt do it. I test drove the Bolt which can use one pedal driving to a complete stop and observed the brake lights come on. The Volt that I owned would also turn on the bake lights either when doing a high regen stop or the adaptive cruise control was engaged. Obviously, for your safety, a motorcycle which uses regenerative braking should also act in the same manner. A similar situation exists in and ICE motorcycle but to get the same deceleration from engine braking as you get with the SR/F's regenerative braking you would need to keep downshifting and should be aware that by doing so, you are not using the mechanical brakes (or brake light)
I think this issue needs to be addressed by Zero and see if there is some way to integrate brake light illumination during regenerative braking. In any event, at least be aware of what other motorists are seeing on the rear of your motorcycle and it isn't brake lights when you slow rapidly with regen.
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I didn't agree with that.
I almost don't use the brakes, because my own mode is 100% regen.
if brake lights illuminate each time i release a bit the throttle my bike will be a christmas tree !
I even think it can be dangerous, or it has to be perfectly implemented (i.e. only when full regen but not for a small one, depending of the speed, etc...)
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What I do while riding my 2018 S and slowing down using regen is to touch the front brake lever slightly (not enough to activate the brake noticeably) and that turns on the brake light.
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I’d say know your surroundings before going into full regen braking by making sure. The person behind is not tail gating and also it doesn’t hurt to put small taps on the brakes as the engine regens. That’s how I ride anyway.
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I would suggest for now making your own custom ride mode, and having the break regen at 100, and the neutral regen at 20 (so i've heard 0 and 20 have no difference). If you want to slow down using regenerative braking then you slightly pull the front brake like Richard230 said. When you slightly pull the brake the light will show.
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Please note that regen only comes on when you roll the throttle fully off to the stop, so you wouldn't have to worry about your bike "looking like a Christmas tree." As long as you hold it off from the full stop, you are coasting, not activating the regen.
I think this is a great idea but I don't know if it is possible the way the bikes are currently constructed. I *THINK* (I don't know for a fact) that the brake light is activated by a mechanical switch on the front and rear brake levers and NOT by the computer. If it were activated by the computer then a simple software update would make that possible but if it is hardware (as I suspect) then it can't be done with the existing models.
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Please note that regen only comes on when you roll the throttle fully off to the stop, so you wouldn't have to worry about your bike "looking like a Christmas tree." As long as you hold it off from the full stop, you are coasting, not activating the regen.
I think this is a great idea but I don't know if it is possible the way the bikes are currently constructed. I *THINK* (I don't know for a fact) that the brake light is activated by a mechanical switch on the front and rear brake levers and NOT by the computer. If it were activated by the computer then a simple software update would make that possible but if it is hardware (as I suspect) then it can't be done with the existing models.
100% off throttle regen is how I have it set. As Jamie mentioned, if you just roll of to neutral, there is no regen, then you can apply more as you roll forward (all the way to 100%). I really never need my brakes at all any more. I use Richard's approach of touching the front brake if I am going to use a bunch of regen (and touching the break at 100% regen makes sure I am using a lot of regen!). This throttle regen behavior is specific to the SR/F though, the other bikes are just on when not applying power (off throttle regen).
Steve
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I'm really curious how people completely stop using brakes. With 100% neutral and brake regen, I still end up moving at stop signs/lights with what feels like a reasonable slow-down distance in traffic (when not speeding). Are folks using a slow-down distance of 50'+?
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Regen on an ev slows down the bike similar to engine braking on an ICE bike, and i know of no ICE bike brake light that come on during decelaration. In fact with ice bikes, i use to slow down by down shifting and not touch the brakes till the last second. Even with manual shift cars/trucks, there is no brake lights while deceleration from engine braking.
Not sure if my 3500 Chevy duramax which had really strong exhaust brakes had the brake lights come on.
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I have noticed on my SR/F that the brake light does not illuminate when slowing down using regenerative braking. The SR/F is almost capable of coming to a complete stop when you are in the ECO mode. The only time you need to apply the service brake is to come to a complete stop. Adding the stopping power of the mechanical brakes (to illuminate the brake light) combined with the regenerative braking doesn't get you smooth stop--more like an abrupt stop. I used to ride in town in the ECO mode because I like the "one pedal driving" (to use an EV term) which allows deceleration control by only using the twist grip "throttle". I have now switched to the street mode to reduce regeneration and allow an easier application of the mechanical brakes. The way the SR/F is set up now, you are likely to be rear ended by someone who didn't know you were stopping because of the lack of a stop lamp.
The brake light on my Tesla will come on by slowing down, regardless of reason.
The way to do the same thing on a motorcycle is to buy a Nolan helmet, like I have. A nice up high brake light on the N100.5 (https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/nolan-n100-5-helmet)when the B901L-R is installed. (https://www.nolan-usa.com/products/ncom-n901l-r-ncom-bluetooth-rear-cartridge-kit-with-ess-light.html)
BTW, the light must be ordered from Italy. No instructions come with it that are in English. The light has many fuctions besides the brake light, can also be a fog light and none of this is obvious until you read the instructions in English, which can be found here. (https://www.n-com.it/sites/default/files/download/1967/2b901lren.pdf)
-Don- Reno, NV
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For the programmers in here, it's also possible to rig an accelerometer to the brake light (placed under the seat)..
The electronics needed are not complex or expensive really..
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Are folks using a slow-down distance of 50'+?
You don't? No wonder I get such good Wh/mi ^-^;
The Unofficial Zero Manual lists the Gear Brake, which has an accelerometer.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Aftermarket#Brake_Light
I ordered one, but the kit was bare-wire for my Zero, and I also need a stand to dig that deeply. I'll probably source some connectors to finish this instead of using the butt connectors they sent.
Although I've switched to using the brake pedal in custom mode.
-Crissa
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For the programmers in here, it's also possible to rig an accelerometer to the brake light (placed under the seat)..
The electronics needed are not complex or expensive really..
And for those who are not programmers, simply buy one here. (https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/rizoma-dynamic-brake-light-sensor?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsIv7hdPY5AIVKx-tBh1_pA6eEAQYASABEgIUfPD_BwE)
-Don- Reno, NV
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One step further is that even with the SR/F brake light on, it's only marginally brighter than the running light. Both should be addressed.
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Please note that regen only comes on when you roll the throttle fully off to the stop, so you wouldn't have to worry about your bike "looking like a Christmas tree." As long as you hold it off from the full stop, you are coasting, not activating the regen.
I think this is a great idea but I don't know if it is possible the way the bikes are currently constructed. I *THINK* (I don't know for a fact) that the brake light is activated by a mechanical switch on the front and rear brake levers and NOT by the computer. If it were activated by the computer then a simple software update would make that possible but if it is hardware (as I suspect) then it can't be done with the existing models.
You must not know the SR/F ! On the right mode you can have a very good regen just releasing a bit of the throttle.
So yes if they did that the bike would looks like a christmas tree, definitely !
Please don't give them that kind of ideas...
And as already been explained, the one who wants the lights can put regen to work only when using the brakes lever, so just a mode to configure.
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The brake light on my Tesla will come one by slowing down, regardless of reason.
On my Bolt EV, I made sure that was the case when I started using the "single-pedal driving mode". Unfortunately, the brake light turns off once the car comes to a stop. That's unfortunate, because to be safe, the pedal must be still depressed after all.
Nobody wants to be rear-ended in a car, let alone on a motorcycle. On electric motorcycles, the computer should illuminate the brake light if measurements from the wheel speed sensor indicate the bike is slowing at or above a certain rate. The computer might drive a relay in parallel with the two mechanical brake switches.
I've been using 100% coasting regen on the FX, so I have to consider consciously the brake light status and control it manually. Personally, I always monitor for vehicles behind when slowing, and slow prematurely until it's abundantly clear the car behind me is slowing too. The time I forget to do that, or can't because I'm already stopped, I'm at high risk of getting smashed.
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Sorry for digging up such an older thread but it has some valuable remarks in here already so I'm not starting a new one.
Just wanted to let you guys know there was an indiegogo campaign for a helmet mounted brake light that uses accelerometers to detect slowing down and activating brake light as such.
The campaign itself is over https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/brakefree-the-smart-brake-light-for-motorcyclists#/ but it was funded and you can find a link there to the website where they sell this product now. US only it looks like.
chaseontwowheels has a review video about it where you can clearly see it working https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iE1A91sdfM
If you're not in the states and still want something like this you could look into bicycle brake lights. Cat-eye for example has some that have such an auto brake light function built in. These are a lot smaller but worst case you could even get a bigger rear light and only use the "brains" of the cat-eye product.
And Energica has it on their bikes by default. Including an emergency brake function with pulsating light on heavy braking. That is something available for years on BMW motorcycles. It does grab attention.
Also if you want to hook into CAN bus for this I've been looking at these topics https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7383.0 and https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6809.0 but it looks like the switch for example on the brake light is not part of can bus messages so it has to be seen if the brake light itself is even included. Also there is the risk of flooding the can bus (when writing) causing other (more important) controls to be dropped. The question is if you want to take that risk.
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The Bosch’s Motorcycle Stability Control which we all have on our SR/F probably already has all the data input it needs to detect braking.
"...MSC accomplishes this by building the system around an Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU), a sensor that detects lean or roll angle, acceleration, deceleration,..."
https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/the-edge-of-control-adding-bosch-stability-control-to-the-zero-srf-electric-motorcycle (https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/the-edge-of-control-adding-bosch-stability-control-to-the-zero-srf-electric-motorcycle)
I suppose it shouldn't be too hard for Zero to use that with the firmware to activate the brake light accordingly, unless the MSC does not share that data with the Cypher III operating system.
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I use the Nolan B901L (http://BlueTooth) with the BlueTooth and brake light. I wish they would add a beep into the audio so I will know how well it is working on the different sensitivity settings. How do I adjust the senitivity when I cannot even see it light up?
-Don- Reno, NV
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And Energica has it on their bikes by default. Including an emergency brake function with pulsating light on heavy braking. That is something available for years on BMW motorcycles. It does grab attention.
While those functions are legal in the EU, US vehicle standards require brake lights to be "steady burning" (see 49 CFR 571.108, Table 1c). BMW imported a few bikes with the pulsating brake function still active and had to recall them all to make them US legal.
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Just to be clear, flashing brake lights are allowed in some states, and that rule only applies to the main tail light(s), not any accessory brake lights. A couple companies get around this by pulsing then turning steady.
After looking at people's responses, I really want a pulsing regen light, but I bought a steady one. Alas.
-Crissa
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Just to be clear, flashing brake lights are allowed in some states, and that rule only applies to the main tail light(s), not any accessory brake lights. A couple companies get around this by pulsing then turning steady.
While the motor vehicle codes in some states may allow brake lights that flash automatically, those codes are in violation of federal law (49 USC 30103, paragraph (b)(1)). That law says, in part, "When a motor vehicle safety standard is in effect under this chapter, a State or a political subdivision of a State may prescribe or continue in effect a standard applicable to the same aspect of performance of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment only if the standard is identical to the standard prescribed under this chapter." In other words, federal standards preempt state law. Imagine the turmoil we would have if each state wrote their own motor vehicle standards. A vehicle legal in one state would be illegal in another. And the rule applies to accessory lights as well. The penalties for manufacturers and vendors who make or sell these products can be fines up to $5,000 for each unit manufactured or sold. I know of one company in California that went out of business after they were fined for selling HID conversion kits to replace incandescent headlamps.
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Yeah, that is not how that law works. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/30103
Note there are other ways that 'exact' that other laws can be applied. And no, these regulations do all not apply to aftermarket parts, and besides, S6.1.1 states these are only minimum numbers. You can have others.
Regenerative braking is not defined, other than the suggestion that it's okay to use the braking lamp to this purpose as long as the braking over-rides it.
It also fails to denote how the light can be produced; the wave form is not defined as being square on-off as being 'steady', hence, some have put a pulse or flash ahead of the steady application. There's always wriggle room. Is Pulse width modification steady or not? Well, it doesn't say.
-Crissa
The HID lights were explicitly not a controlled light to avoid glare - it's like some LED kits - they are not focused properly. HID lights are supposed to have blinders in the housing which keep the brightest part of the beam from other drivers. The only cases I could find were ones mislabeled as being DOT approved when they were not.
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Actually, aftermarket parts ARE covered by the regulations. 49 USC 30112 states that the regulations apply to the manufacturer or sale of motor vehicles AND motor vehicle equipment (i.e., aftermarket parts). And PWM is not steady. For more information, go the the NHTSA Electronic Reading Room (https://www.nhtsa.gov/about-nhtsa/electronic-reading-room) and search on brake lights. You'll find several NHTSA opinions on the subject of flashing lights. The basic justification for the rule is that flashing red lights are reserved for emergency vehicles.
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...And you're not arguing with what I wrote but some straw man, so conversation over.
-Crissa
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And Energica has it on their bikes by default. Including an emergency brake function with pulsating light on heavy braking. That is something available for years on BMW motorcycles. It does grab attention.
While those functions are legal in the EU, US vehicle standards require brake lights to be "steady burning" (see 49 CFR 571.108, Table 1c). BMW imported a few bikes with the pulsating brake function still active and had to recall them all to make them US legal.
To you & Crissa.....
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH§ionNum=25251.5
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https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH§ionNum=25251.5
I tried to study such link. The word brake seems missing. Motorcycle terminology in my world does not use the term accelerator. Such de cellerator lights that can flash are to be in their own location, amber and not used for any other function.
Fran
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https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH§ionNum=25251.5
I tried to study such link. The word brake seems missing. Motorcycle terminology in my world does not use the term accelerator. Such de cellerator lights that can flash are to be in their own location, amber and not used for any other function.
Fran
(c) Any stoplamp or supplemental stoplamp required or permitted by Section 24603 may be equipped so as to flash not more than four times within the first four seconds after actuation by application of the brakes.
The discussion between the two of them was centered on the legality of flashing brake light(s) but the rest is interesting as well.
Likely the law(s) will be modified to cover EV regen.
[Just to be clear, this is California’s laws]
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I just got one of these.
https://safer-turn.com/product/smart-brake-module/
I drive a Volt and the brake light comes on when I use the re-gen paddle without actually using the brake pedal.
This seems to be of the same theory. It senses deceleration.
I think it's a great idea and on sale for $67 seems like a reasonable alternative. I got one for my 2018 DSR.
I ride in lots of traffic and use the brake as little as possible.
You'll find plenty of youtube videos about install and operation.
I won't be able to install or try it until April.
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I have a 2020 SR/F and love 100% regen and no lights that come on. I drive in such a manner that I have *ahem* never had a tailgater. Someone speeding up and slowing down rapidly enough to turn on a brake light is an activity that seems to annoy many other drivers. And as I have learned, annoyed drivers say stuff to you at stop lights or worse, take your plate number and file a report to the police (speaking from several experiences). All that said, I understand the safety increase that a brake light activated by any decel would offer to more "stay with traffic" riders. So I would simply love to see it as an activatable option.
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Actually, this is a safety concern of myself as well.
I love to ride with full regen in my custom mode. But I'm really worried about following traffic not noticing that I slow down significantly by regen braking.
Actually, I think laws in Europe require the brake lights to be enabled when exceeding a certain level of braking.
So, Zero might be in violation of those rules here.
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Yes, the deceleration can be quite abrupt. This is more a concern in the city than on country roads. Energica is blinking the backlight when regen braking, but I'm not sure if that is allowed either. This certainly looks more intimidating to following traffic and looks more like an emergency braking :)
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I would prefer blinking over nothing any day.
And I do not think that blinking is even illegal. Energica is a European company. So, chances are high that they following the legislation properly.
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I sure don't have that problem with my 2018 S. At maximum 100% regen, which provides much more slowing than it does in "eco" mode, it is not at all enough to bother someone behind me - unless they are wanting to push me along so that they can get to the next red light quicker. ::) I don't know for sure if U.S. DOT regulations permit a flashing brake light, although I think they might. But if not, perhaps a dimmer brake light than full on braking would be the way to go. ???
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I don't know for sure if U.S. DOT regulations permit a flashing brake light, although I think they might.
My Enerfica and Tesla flashes the brake light when there is heavy regen. It's only the Zeros that doesn't. But Zero's have little regen even at max when compared to the Energica and Tesla default or mid settings.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I've come up short behind people who don't touch the brakes, so I rather appreciate the flash of a deceleration triggered light.
-Crissa
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I find that at 50% regen my Zero feels roughly the same as a twin on a closed throttle.
Cas :)
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I put a Vololights unit on my SR/F for this very reason. The SR/F and SR/S offer pretty high amounts of regen braking, yet don't illuminate the brake light. The Vololights should sense the deceleration and illuminate or flash, as configured. I haven't followed myself to verify it. :o Here in the States, so many drivers are distracted, staring at their phones, that every little bit helps. And always, watch those mirrors and be ready to avoid being rear-ended by a smartphone user!
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During my driving lessons on a ICE bike my instructor taught us to lightly touch the break handle when we are abruptly accelerating on the engine.
During one lesson on the road the student in front of me deaccelerated on the engine, which I did not notice immediately. So I had to pull the break quite abruptly and so did the car behind me.
I learned my lesson in that situation. And learned to keep more distance ;D
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I have my Zero S custom setup so that there is no regen on a closed throttle, but it comes on at 100% (such as it is) when I touch my front brake lever and trigger the brake light. That seems like one way to address the issue.