ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: TacoChrist on September 01, 2019, 07:50:13 AM
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Like the tittle: has anyone actually charged an sr/f at 12kw with all of the available on board chargers?
What was the experience like?
What sort of connection/ connectors did you use?
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During level 2 charging all I remember is 50 amps. Which is 5.5 kWhs @ 110 volts.
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During level 2 charging all I remember is 50 amps. Which is 5.5 kWhs @ 110 volts.
Level two is 240 VAC so 50 amps is 12KW.
What does your "110 volts" have to do with anything?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I think that whatever the outer voltage (110V in the USA, 220 in Europeâ¾, the displayed ampera are relative to the internal voltage of the MC, i.e. 100V. So when charged at 12kV, it should display ~120A.
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Not my SR/F but attached is a screenshot of a demo SR/F where Dutch youtuber Enzo Knol tests the SR/F. During a charging stop they showed the dash.
This is in the Netherlands where 11kW charging stations are almost everywhere and 22kW stations are very common. All are 3 phase 230Volt (phase to neutral)
SOC 67 %
Charge Power 11.0 kW
Charging amps 102 Amps (So voltage is around 108 Volt)
22 minutes to full from 67%
link to the video https://youtu.be/Hg2mcDp3PYs (https://youtu.be/Hg2mcDp3PYs)
screenshot of the charge power is at 22:40
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The bike dashboard does not consider it 220 Volts. That’s way it is “110†volts.
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So if I have a choice of a Tesla destination charger on a 100amp fuse with a Tesla-tap, or a j-1772 to a 40amp in line evse charger plugged directly into the nema outlet on the same circuit: which will be faster?
Also, is there anyway to use just the top portion of a ccs charger with an adapter?
What is the max amperage available then?
Is there anyway to fit something into a backpack that could harness 12kw of power for any 100+ amp circuit?
Also, I realize how terrible for the battery it is to charge rapidly, discharge and the rapidly charge again.
Edit: just saw your signature. Teach me.
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I read on this forum that actually charging the battery fast actually is better, so long as it doesn’t get to hot.
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I read on this forum that actually charging the battery fast actually is better, so long as it doesn’t get to hot.
So have I read such here.
But now try to find such wording in ANY EV Owner's manual.
Let me check my Energica SS9 Manual . . .
My Energica Owner's manual says (page 102):
"Charging in DC mode may stress the battery and shorten battery life. We recommend using both DC and AC modes to charge the battery, preferring AC mode when possible."
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Perhaps that is exactly the same thing? The Tesla supercharger equivalents may overheat the batteries and viola, worse than slower charging.
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How can you charge more than 6kWh, as the Charge Tank has not been released yet ?!
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The extra 6kW charge tank option should be available as of September. Don't have it on order though... So mine maxes out at 5,7kW for now.
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As long as the charging stays within the temperature parameters, there's no evidence fast charging shortens battery life.
There was a study recently to 'confirm' that fast charging damages batteries more, but it was poorly designed from the get-go, using cells that were designed before fast-charging was invented (and rather low capacity cells at that, so they'd fit into their scanning equipment.)
There's no indication of this from actively thermal managed cells having shorter life for beng fast charged: It's the number of cycles, temperature extremes, and leaving state-of-charge at extremes that seems to do the most damage.
-Crissa
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As long as the charging stays within the temperature parameters, there's no evidence fast charging shortens battery life.
Be sure to explain that to Energica!
-Don- Reno, NV
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We have. It's the old way of thinking.
Picture it like this: The battery ONLY accepts DC input to charge. The AC charger is just doing that at a slower rate. The DC stations are giant versions of your onboard charger just dumping in the juice at a high rate of speed. Hell, you can even throttle it back if you're worried. It's still just amps at the right voltage.
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We have. It's the old way of thinking.
Picture it like this: The battery ONLY accepts DC input to charge. The AC charger is just doing that at a slower rate. The DC stations are giant versions of your onboard charger just dumping in the juice at a high rate of speed. Hell, you can even throttle it back if you're worried. It's still just amps at the right voltage.
It's believed that the heat does the damage. Fast charging is too much heat too fast. If that was not an issue, I don't see why we could not charge at several thousand amps. If there was no heat, we should be able to.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Be sure to explain that to Energica!
...And do you think they're going not going to err on the side of caution?
Besides, as you pointed out: Charging creates heat, and fast charging more, and more heat is bad. It also can raise the amount of time at 100% charge, also bad.
So even if fast charging isn't so bad, it still has secondary effects that can make it worse if not handled judiciously.
-Crissa
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It's believed that the heat does the damage. Fast charging is too much heat too fast. If that was not an issue, I don't see why we could not charge at several thousand amps. If there was no heat, we should be able to.
-Don- Reno, NV
I think we're on the same page, here. There are acceptable temperature ranges that are monitored. If the battery pack gets too close to the thresholds the charging speed is throttled back. If it's a hot day, you're in the sun, and you've been pushing the bike hard, you might be restricted to *gasp* 1C, aka you are now charging at the absolute fastest that anyone else dares charge.
God I love these Energica batteries.
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God I love these Energica batteries.
They have less warranty than Zero batteries and I assume the 24 KW charge rate is why.
-Don- Reno, NV
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What's the average motorcyclist miles per year? 3000? Planning for an average of 10 years warranty not bad.
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True but unlimited mileage still is better. Some people do more like 10x 3k a year (me).
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That limited warranty and chaindrive (and liquid cooling) on the energica were reasons enough for me to go for zero instead.
I do 30.000 km/year so in Energica warranty terms that would be < 2 years warranty. With the investment of 10k I had to do to convert to electric I plan to get back on track (and actually start saving) at around 3 years.
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That limited warranty and chaindrive (and liquid cooling) on the energica were reasons enough for me to go for zero instead.
I prefer chains to belts. I hear of too many belts snapping, often even on new bikes. And that's with no warning. And I have no problem with a couple of liquids for much better cooling.
While such makes the bike heavier, as long as it has a reverse, I really don't care all that much.
But I still ride my Zeros the most, as 90% of my riding is around town and then I prefer a light bike.
-Don- Reno, NV
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In that clip of the YouTuber, they were charging @11kW indeed. My guess is they charged at a 22kW 3F charging point and used a 20A type 2 cable, 3-phases with power distributed like 3kW/3kW/4,6kW, resulting in 10,6 kW total. A 32A cable could have given 3/3/6 kW, so for the last 1,2 kW, you’ll have to drag a 3 phase 32A type2 cable around, in EU at least...
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In that clip of the YouTuber, they were charging @11kW indeed. My guess is they charged at a 22kW 3F charging point and used a 20A type 2 cable, 3-phases with power distributed like 3kW/3kW/4,6kW, resulting in 10,6 kW total. A 32A cable could have given 3/3/6 kW, so for the last 1,2 kW, you’ll have to drag a 3 phase 32A type2 cable around, in EU at least...
I hope it's not the case like with the stock "3 kW" charger that puts only 2.8 kW into the battery. I've measured the input and it takes 3.05 kW from the wall so technically it could be called a 3 kW charger.
So maybe the premium with 6kW rapid cherger can only do 11.0 kW due to losses, or it was a pre-production model only capable of 11 kW.
I will know in a short while, having ordered the rapid charger for my premium SR/F (back in early september)
Has anyone heard an E.T.A. date on the rapid charger yet?? Or the powertank ?. Both were "promised" in the fall of 2019.
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I guess I'm gonna find out sooner than I thought. My 6kW Rapid Charger for the SR/F is at the dealer!!. They are gonna install it this thursday :) :)
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I guess I'm gonna find out sooner than I thought. My 6kW Rapid Charger for the SR/F is at the dealer!!. They are gonna install it this thursday :) :)
I think most here in the USA will find that charging at 12 KW from a single J-1772 is rather useless. Most of our J-1772 charge stations can only handle around 7KW max and I have seen some that can only do 5.5 KW.
I hear things are different in Europe.
We seem to be behind the rest of the modern world on the EV stuff.
-Don- Reno, NV
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There's no point in getting all worked up about the numbers. My bike has a "14.4 kWh" battery which actually has about 12.4 kWh of capacity. I'm not planning on suing anybody. It does what it does, I know what it does, and plan my affairs around that.
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Usually a lower than expected power throughout on a charger means that the current limit has been reached (which is dominant to minimize internal heating) but that the input/line voltage is lower than nominal (droop below 220V AC under load).
Voltage drop on good equipment shouldn’t happen, but realistically, it does in various installations, maybe because of older upstream infrastructure or long cabling out to the charging station from the distribution panels.
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I think most here in the USA will find that charging at 12 KW from a single J-1772 is rather useless. Most of our J-1772 charge stations can only handle around 7KW max and I have seen some that can only do 5.5 KW.
I hear things are different in Europe.
We seem to be behind the rest of the modern world on the EV stuff.
-Don- Reno, NV
I'm in luck then :) I live in the Netherlands/Europe and we have a 3 phase 230V system and loads and loads of 11kW stations (16Amps per phase)
If i'm not mistaken there are about 46.000 !! of those in the Netherlands alone in a country of max 200 km East to west and 300 km North to South.
On such a 11kW station I think i could charge at around 9.5 kW (3kw+3kW+3.5 kW).
About 1 in 10 stations is even stronger at 22kW (32 amps per phase) and there i could charge at the full 12 kW
There are also 1000 "Fast Chargers with 43kW capability, often combined with a CHADEMO and CCS connection), obviously I could charge there with "only" 12kW :) :)
Neighbouring countries like Germany, France, Austria and switzelrland are a little bit behind but not by much and catching up fast, and they are doing an even better job because almost all stations are 22kW
So for us Europeans the rapid charging option is a Great way to speed up charging and cut the charging time to under an hour from 0% to 95%
All stations are equipped with a mennekes type 2 connector, same as on the (european version of) SR/F. 11 and 22kW stations unfortunately have no cable attached so we have to bring our own. 43kW stations are less common but do have a cable attached but are also much more expensive.
https://content.mailplus.nl/m11/images/user31100268/ev_nl_infographic_sep.png
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we got our 6Kw rapid charger for a SR/F Premium last week, and got all it all installed today.
We just have a Juicebox 40 to test it with, but getting 7.1-7.2Kw at 91% SOC. 9 minutes to complete.
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SR/F storage compartment with rapid charger
this bike is available now for sale...not a demo....no waiting... SR/F Premium with 6Kw Rapid charger
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SR/F storage compartment with rapid charger
No more storage 8)
Your seat seems to fit well, mine fits like crap, did you made anything to adjust it ?
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we got our 6Kw rapid charger for a SR/F Premium last week, and got all it all installed today.
We just have a Juicebox 40 to test it with, but getting 7.1-7.2Kw at 91% SOC. 9 minutes to complete.
For North America, the best value for an 80A EVSE would have to be the Tesla High Power Wall Connector (HPWC) for $500 from Tesla. There's lots of these installed all over the USA at hotels*. The plug is proprietary and so you would advise the bike owner to carry an 80A TeslaTap ($275) adapter.
There are some few 63A SAE J1772 EVSE "in the wild" out there labeled as 15kW stations but most of these I have seen are from the early 2000's years. Finding a station like this capable of supporting a 12kW L2 charging load is complicated for North America however the Tesla HPWC destination chargers are very common nowadays at the hotels. The Tesla Model S with dual chargers is quite common as vehicles go and supports drawing an 80A charging load so there are a whole lot more (but not all) HPWC installations "in the wild" which could fill the need of the SR/F Prem + Chargetank 12kW load.
How many amps does the 80A TeslaTap charge an SR/F Premium with installed Chargetank? I have not heard of any test with this yet?
*note: I'm talking from experience. I did an 8,000mi road trip in a Tesla Model 3. Mostly I used the DCFC Supercharger locations but also scouted L2 stations with an interest in how I might do that trip on a bike.
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Tesla Tap confirmed to work with Rapid Charger (12kW possible)
saw 9kW today at this free Tesla destination station, using this 50A TeslaTap
http://www.umc-j1772.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=17&product_id=99